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Old 07-08-2012, 01:58 PM   #1
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High level vs. Low level Ouput from HU, the X3, & wiring confusion?

I know there are some real experts here that can probably clear this up for me as I am trying to plan my install very soon and want to make sure I have it all clear in my mind on the correct and best way to be doing this.

Scosche GM5210B integration to factory BA wiring via the included harness.

HU is Kenwood DNX6990HD. This comes with high level output (speaker level) and low level output (via 3 sets of RCA, Front, Rear, Sub)

Rockford Fosgate 3SIXTY.3 8-Channel Interactive Signal Processor has high level (wires) input and low level (RCA) input.

Is the best way to just wire the 8 wires on the Kenwood HU to Scoesche 8 wires that feed to the rear of the car and then use the subthump X3 to feed the sound processor again via high level(yes, I would cut the extra connector that would normally go to the factory amp and use those 8 wires to the feed the high level on the Rockford)?? Now this only sends the front and rear left and right. Does the signal on these 8 wires have the full spectrum of sound to where the Rockford can then send the front and rear to one 4-channel amp via RCA and then there is a separate output to the sub mono amp via other RCA.

Or should I be running 3 pairs of RCA from the head unit to the rear of the car to feed the sound processor and split off to the amps from there. Thereby, not using any of the factory wires for input. I would lose all the door chimes and Onstar then??

I would definitely use the X2 to then use the cars wiring for the front and rear speakers regardless of the high or low level input to the sound processor.

I don't want to lose any of the sound spectrum from the HU. Thoughts on best way to do this? Thanks guys.








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Old 07-08-2012, 02:25 PM   #2
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This is my theory, as I don't yet own a 3Sixty.3. Also, I have studied the Metra kit more than the others and know that it outputs the factory sounds (Onstar, chimes, etc...) via an RCA adapter. I cannot speak to the Scosche module, but you may find the following guidance to be the same.

If you're using the 3Sixty.3 and a Metra kit you should be able to do the following:

The 3Sixty.3 has 8 input channels, so take the 5 channels from your factory HU (L/R Front, L/R Rear, SW) and go directly to the 3Sixty.3 with your own RCAs. Take factory sound ouput module RCA and run it to the 3Sixty.3 as a 6th channel.

In the 3Sixty.3 software, you should be able to mix the factory sounds input channel and the left front input channel into one single left front output channel. Yes, the Metra kit has hardware that does this already, if you want. But the advantage of running it as two seperate inputs to the 3Sixty.3 is that you get a pure signal from your HU to your DSP without going through the cheesy Metra module.
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Old 07-08-2012, 03:00 PM   #3
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Thanks for your input jeepguy_1980. I actually read several of your posts here earlier today on discussions of outputs, etc.

I get what your saying and it makes sense. The Scosche does not have any special wires or RCA's for factory sound. I would think that a couple of the wires on the factory harness in the dash have this signal but WHICH??? I know when you use the X3 in the back the sound is already premixed in at that point. Maybe I need to find some diagrams of the dash harness. So you think don't use the 8 wires and Subthump x3??

Thanks for your input!
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Old 07-08-2012, 04:02 PM   #4
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The subthump harness is just another way to get the signals in the trunk. It's a great option if you don't plan to run any wires. But if you want to go through the trouble of running so much as one wire from the dash to the trunk, you might as well run good quality RCAs from front to rear and skip the unshielded, barely insulated factory wiring.

As for the Scosche kit, or any kit for that matter, I do believe that the factory signals are generated by the car (probably BCM) at pre-amp levels already, and are just amplified by the factory radio or amp. The kits are just mixing this signal with the aftermarket radio's to retain them. If this is true, you could use something like the Kicker ZISL to make them into RCA outputs and run the RCA line to the 3Sixty.3. Check out the schematic below. I'm trying to determine which wire carries the chime signals.

This is the Metra adapter, and cooresponding wire harness. I believe that the black/yellow wire is for OnStar, and possibly chimes. This should be a pre-amp signal that could be turned into an RCA signal without any electronics, just a physical adapter.




Black/Yellow is Onstar
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Old 07-08-2012, 05:47 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepguy_1980 View Post
The subthump harness is just another way to get the signals in the trunk. It's a great option if you don't plan to run any wires. But if you want to go through the trouble of running so much as one wire from the dash to the trunk, you might as well run good quality RCAs from front to rear and skip the unshielded, barely insulated factory wiring.
I 100% agree about the RCA's, but keep reading.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepguy_1980 View Post
As for the Scosche kit, or any kit for that matter, I do believe that the factory signals are generated by the car (probably BCM) at pre-amp levels already, and are just amplified by the factory radio or amp. The kits are just mixing this signal with the aftermarket radio's to retain them. If this is true, you could use something like the Kicker ZISL to make them into RCA outputs and run the RCA line to the 3Sixty.3. Check out the schematic below. I'm trying to determine which wire carries the chime signals.
This is not correct. The chimes are created by the radio. This is true for most every modern GM vehicle. When you remove the radio, you must have a new chime generator. To prove this, just listen to the chimes in a factory car and then one with a Scosche kit. The chimes sound completely different. I have not heard the chimes in a car with a Metra kit, so it is possible that Metra more closely copied the sound of the factory chimes. My Scosche kit sounds like they just googled "chime sound" and chose the first search result. The chimes in the Scosche kit will be retained no matter what you do because they are created by the kit and come out of a small speaker that is on the back of the HVAC touch screen module. The chimes do not come out of the car speakers with the Scosche kit.

The best way to connect your HU to the 360.3 would be through the 3 sets of RCA cables. The RCA's provide a cleaner signal than high level outputs. The high level outputs will distort at some point along the volume curve. RCA's are the way to go for optimal sound. That is how I will be connecting my 360.3 next weekend.

Your issue is most probably one of choice. I have the Scosche kit and currently have the JBL MS-8. I do not have the CAMOSM OnStar module. From my understanding of the workings of the Scosche kit, the CAMOSM module mixes the OnStar features into the speaker level (high level) outputs. Therefore, the only way to retain your OnStar will be to intercept your speaker level inputs at the X3 harness at the rear. I could easily be wrong, so best bet would be to contact Scosche.

Also, I did not realize that the Scosche and Metra kits were so different.

So the choice is: best possible signal, or OnStar retention?
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Old 07-08-2012, 06:15 PM   #6
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I 100% agree about the RCA's, but keep reading.....



This is not correct. The chimes are created by the radio. This is true for most every modern GM vehicle. When you remove the radio, you must have a new chime generator. To prove this, just listen to the chimes in a factory car and then one with a Scosche kit. The chimes sound completely different. I have not heard the chimes in a car with a Metra kit, so it is possible that Metra more closely copied the sound of the factory chimes. My Scosche kit sounds like they just googled "chime sound" and chose the first search result. The chimes in the Scosche kit will be retained no matter what you do because they are created by the kit and come out of a small speaker that is on the back of the HVAC touch screen module. The chimes do not come out of the car speakers with the Scosche kit.

The best way to connect your HU to the 360.3 would be through the 3 sets of RCA cables. The RCA's provide a cleaner signal than high level outputs. The high level outputs will distort at some point along the volume curve. RCA's are the way to go for optimal sound. That is how I will be connecting my 360.3 next weekend.

Your issue is most probably one of choice. I have the Scosche kit and currently have the JBL MS-8. I do not have the CAMOSM OnStar module. From my understanding of the workings of the Scosche kit, the CAMOSM module mixes the OnStar features into the speaker level (high level) outputs. Therefore, the only way to retain your OnStar will be to intercept your speaker level inputs at the X3 harness at the rear. I could easily be wrong, so best bet would be to contact Scosche.

Also, I did not realize that the Scosche and Metra kits were so different.

So the choice is: best possible signal, or OnStar retention?
Except now I rechecked and the 8 wires are low level inputs not high. that is why the Subthump X3 can just convert these to RCA with no LOC. So in this case what do you think about that now? Or could I do front and rear through the factory wires and X3 and then just run a sub RCA line from the back of the HU? Can you mix like this? And I have Onstar and the module and so would not like to lose this. I can check the wire diagram to see if I can figure out which is the voice out....maybe I can splice that to RCA and then put into the Front 2 input of the Rockford and do the mix via software to front left channel???
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Old 07-08-2012, 06:28 PM   #7
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OK checked the Onstar Module diagram and it shows all four channels ( 8 wires) feeding back into the harness and thus out the back X3 for all speakers.

So ideally if I would not lose too much I think that using the subthump X3 for the front rear and a separate RCA from the sub out of the HU to the Rockford would be this best...if I can do this.

Also thinking why can't I disconnect the speaker wires from the Scosche and run those to 2 wires to RCA's and then in to Front2?? Then I would get the chimes sounds from all 4 speakers right??

I spoke with Lupe on PM and he mentioned he only ran RCA for the sub out and used the factory wires for front and rear. So I think I can do this!

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Old 07-08-2012, 06:38 PM   #8
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Also, I did not realize that the Scosche and Metra kits were so different.

So the choice is: best possible signal, or OnStar retention?
You may be right about the chimes, because I cannot find a wire that is clearly labeled chimes. But I would think that you can take what ever signal it is generating, whether to a crappy little internal speaker, or an RCA type signal and send it via RCA to the 3Sixty.3.

As for OnStar retention, it is still possible using my idea. If you look at the diagram below, there is clearly a (+) and (-) signal coming from the OnStar module. Those could be routed to the 3Sixty.3 and mixed in. The only difference between this and OEM operation would be that you would have to manually mute the radio.


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I spoke with Lupe on PM and he mentioned he only ran RCA for the sub out and used the factory wires for front and rear. So I think I can do this!
If you're going to go through the hassle of running one wire, you really should just run a full set of RCAs. It is going to be about the same price as a FARK kit, and will produce better results. I assume you're going to need to run a video signal for a camera. If I were you I would run a 4-channel RCA and a 2-channel RCA all at the same time. Then you still have the issue of getting your speaker signals from the amp to the doors. You can use the FARK for this, or run your own speaker wire and tap in behind the HU, or run the wires all the way to the doors.
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Old 07-08-2012, 10:23 PM   #9
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Quote:
As for OnStar retention, it is still possible using my idea. If you look at the diagram below, there is clearly a (+) and (-) signal coming from the OnStar module. Those could be routed to the 3Sixty.3 and mixed in. The only difference between this and OEM operation would be that you would have to manually mute the radio.
I'm not seeing this sorry. The Voice (+) (-) is on some communication module by the dash. I am looking at the back wiring diagram for the onstar and there are no wires that I see for this Voice signal. :(

I would love to run 3 RCA back if I can grab the onstar somehow..
Thanks for all the input so far all!
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Old 07-08-2012, 10:24 PM   #10
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The communication module is the OnStar module. It's located in the right side of the dash, just above the glovebox.
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Old 07-08-2012, 10:49 PM   #11
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The communication module is the OnStar module. It's located in the right side of the dash, just above the glovebox.
Oh, OK I thought you were talking about the Onstar module the plugs into the Scosche harness. So you will T-tap those 2 wires from the Onstar to RCA and try to input into Front2?
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Old 07-09-2012, 10:57 AM   #12
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Except now I rechecked and the 8 wires are low level inputs not high. that is why the Subthump X3 can just convert these to RCA with no LOC. So in this case what do you think about that now? Or could I do front and rear through the factory wires and X3 and then just run a sub RCA line from the back of the HU? Can you mix like this? And I have Onstar and the module and so would not like to lose this. I can check the wire diagram to see if I can figure out which is the voice out....maybe I can splice that to RCA and then put into the Front 2 input of the Rockford and do the mix via software to front left channel???
This got me thinking - watch out!

Why don't you just do this the easy way? Run 3 sets of RCA's from your head unit to the 3Sixty.3. Then, take one set of RCA's from the X3 and run them into the remaining 2 channels. This would work, no doubt about it. If you need some extra comfort, you could run the X3 RCA's through a LOC to reduce the level. I think the 3Sixty.3 could handle the higher input no problem, but you may want the added protection.

Another option could be not connecting the speaker outputs from the head unit to the Scosche harness. The OnStar module would probably still output through to the X3, but I'm not 100% sure about that. I'd recommend what I said above. I'd stay away from cutting up a bunch a wires in my dash.
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Old 07-09-2012, 12:11 PM   #13
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This got me thinking - watch out!

Why don't you just do this the easy way? Run 3 sets of RCA's from your head unit to the 3Sixty.3. Then, take one set of RCA's from the X3 and run them into the remaining 2 channels. This would work, no doubt about it. If you need some extra comfort, you could run the X3 RCA's through a LOC to reduce the level. I think the 3Sixty.3 could handle the higher input no problem, but you may want the added protection.

Another option could be not connecting the speaker outputs from the head unit to the Scosche harness. The OnStar module would probably still output through to the X3, but I'm not 100% sure about that. I'd recommend what I said above. I'd stay away from cutting up a bunch a wires in my dash.
The onstar signal gets to the amp via the radio. You would not have the factory radio, so you have to take the signal it normally sends to the radio and route it to the 3sixty.3 on your own.
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Old 07-09-2012, 12:15 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkrider01 View Post
This got me thinking - watch out!

Why don't you just do this the easy way? Run 3 sets of RCA's from your head unit to the 3Sixty.3. Then, take one set of RCA's from the X3 and run them into the remaining 2 channels. This would work, no doubt about it. If you need some extra comfort, you could run the X3 RCA's through a LOC to reduce the level. I think the 3Sixty.3 could handle the higher input no problem, but you may want the added protection.

Another option could be not connecting the speaker outputs from the head unit to the Scosche harness. The OnStar module would probably still output through to the X3, but I'm not 100% sure about that. I'd recommend what I said above. I'd stay away from cutting up a bunch a wires in my dash.
lol..I like thinking people!

OK so you are saying that maybe take the front RCA's from the X3 and input to Front2 and then use the software to combine to say Left front channel? Would that have all the sounds from the Onstar/chimes? Seems could even use some kind of combiner and put the 2 front and rear (+) and the 2 rear (-) into these and then output to 2 RCA to go to Front2 input?

http://www.amazon.com/Steren-RCA-Y-A...+to+2+RCA+Male
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Old 07-09-2012, 12:17 PM   #15
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The onstar signal gets to the amp via the radio. You would not have the factory radio, so you have to take the signal it normally sends to the radio and route it to the 3sixty.3 on your own.
That can't be right as then why would Scosche sell the Onstar module if you could not hear it?? The sounds must come off the their harness and at least be at the X3 in the back to draw it from.
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Old 07-09-2012, 12:39 PM   #16
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That can't be right as then why would Scosche sell the Onstar module if you could not hear it?? The sounds must come off the their harness and at least be at the X3 in the back to draw it from.
If the Scosche kit is like the Metra, it does exactly what I'm suggesting that you do. It takes the two wires that would normally go to the OEM radio and mixes that signal with the aftermarket radio's RCA out.
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Old 07-09-2012, 12:43 PM   #17
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lol..I like thinking people!

OK so you are saying that maybe take the front RCA's from the X3 and input to Front2 and then use the software to combine to say Left front channel? Would that have all the sounds from the Onstar/chimes? Seems could even use some kind of combiner and put the 2 front and rear (+) and the 2 rear (-) into these and then output to 2 RCA to go to Front2 input?

http://www.amazon.com/Steren-RCA-Y-A...+to+2+RCA+Male
I wouldn't go that route. Let the 3Sixty.3 do the mixing. Y-adapters are not for mixing signals. In this case, you could damage the RCA output section of your radio as you would be combining a high level signal and a low level signal. The Scosche kit does not provide LOC functions.

Also, the chimes will come out of the speaker on the back of the HVAC controls. And don't worry, it's plenty loud.

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That can't be right as then why would Scosche sell the Onstar module if you could not hear it?? The sounds must come off the their harness and at least be at the X3 in the back to draw it from.
You are correct here FTW. The Scosche kit does not send the Onstar signal to the radio. The CAMOSM module piggybacks the OnStar sounds/etc. on the radio output speaker level wiring. That is why I'm saying you should use the X3 RCA's to mix in the OnStar sounds.
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Old 07-09-2012, 12:52 PM   #18
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If the Scosche kit is like the Metra, it does exactly what I'm suggesting that you do. It takes the two wires that would normally go to the OEM radio and mixes that signal with the aftermarket radio's RCA out.
The Scosche kit must be a lot different than the Metra kit then.

The Scosche kit harness takes the speaker outputs from the radio and sends them directly back to the X3. It does not convert them to RCA's nor does the Scosche harness accept RCA's. I'm pretty sure that the reason Scosche did it this way is because the factory amp can take high or low level as input without issue.
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Old 07-09-2012, 01:00 PM   #19
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If the Scosche kit is like the Metra, it does exactly what I'm suggesting that you do. It takes the two wires that would normally go to the OEM radio and mixes that signal with the aftermarket radio's RCA out.
No the Scosche does not get extra wires from what you call the Onstar communication module to the right of dash. You plug on the Onstar to the Scosche harness and it feeds the voice output to the 4 channels front and rear.

So this tells me that the Scosche harness must get the onstar voice from on of the 2 connectors that plug into the car in the dash.

I like how we are all "working this out" though
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Old 07-09-2012, 02:01 PM   #20
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As for OnStar retention, it is still possible using my idea. If you look at the diagram below, there is clearly a (+) and (-) signal coming from the OnStar module. Those could be routed to the 3Sixty.3 and mixed in. The only difference between this and OEM operation would be that you would have to manually mute the radio.
Looks like it gets the OnStar voice/info from the DK BLU and LT BLU/BLK wires coming from the Telematics Comm Interface. IF it is just a basic analog audio signal, then the radio must be programmed to mute on a signal sense from those wires. My fear would be that it is a digital signal and must be processed by the radio or CAMOSM module. It is probably just analog though since it has + and - signals. Depending on how long you can wait, I could test it this weekend when I put in my 3Sixty.

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Originally Posted by CamaroFTW View Post
No the Scosche does not get extra wires from what you call the Onstar communication module to the right of dash. You plug on the Onstar to the Scosche harness and it feeds the voice output to the 4 channels front and rear.

So this tells me that the Scosche harness must get the onstar voice from on of the 2 connectors that plug into the car in the dash.

I like how we are all "working this out" though
Looks like we're on the same page.
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Old 07-09-2012, 02:03 PM   #21
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If it works out, I may just run a small amp (like the factory amp) to the center channel and use it for OnStar only.
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Old 07-09-2012, 02:26 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkrider01 View Post
Looks like it gets the OnStar voice/info from the DK BLU and LT BLU/BLK wires coming from the Telematics Comm Interface. IF it is just a basic analog audio signal, then the radio must be programmed to mute on a signal sense from those wires. My fear would be that it is a digital signal and must be processed by the radio or CAMOSM module. It is probably just analog though since it has + and - signals. Depending on how long you can wait, I could test it this weekend when I put in my 3Sixty.



Looks like we're on the same page.
That is exactly what I have been saying for a while, lost in translation somewhere. I plan to order a 3Sixty.3 later this week. I have an extra radio harness. I might try cutting the onstar wires on it just to test my theory. If I like the way it works out, that may be one less thing keeping me from going with a full-blown aftermarket HU.

As for the Metra kit chimes being loud enough, I'm sure they are, but I would still send that signal to the 3Sixty.3, to get a more refined experience. I think an aftermarket HU should be better than stock in every way. I shouldn't have to downgrade to some 1980's speaker or relay to mimic my turn signal and chimes sounds.
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Old 07-09-2012, 03:05 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeepguy_1980 View Post
That is exactly what I have been saying for a while, lost in translation somewhere. I plan to order a 3Sixty.3 later this week. I have an extra radio harness. I might try cutting the onstar wires on it just to test my theory. If I like the way it works out, that may be one less thing keeping me from going with a full-blown aftermarket HU.

As for the Metra kit chimes being loud enough, I'm sure they are, but I would still send that signal to the 3Sixty.3, to get a more refined experience. I think an aftermarket HU should be better than stock in every way. I shouldn't have to downgrade to some 1980's speaker or relay to mimic my turn signal and chimes sounds.
But if we didn't want to cut into the Telecommunications wires, the Onstar sounds should already be on the front and rear speaker outs of the Scosche that is sent back to the X3. Should be able to grab the sounds off that and not have to splice into some other part of the car.
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Old 07-09-2012, 03:07 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkrider01 View Post
Looks like it gets the OnStar voice/info from the DK BLU and LT BLU/BLK wires coming from the Telematics Comm Interface. IF it is just a basic analog audio signal, then the radio must be programmed to mute on a signal sense from those wires. My fear would be that it is a digital signal and must be processed by the radio or CAMOSM module. It is probably just analog though since it has + and - signals. Depending on how long you can wait, I could test it this weekend when I put in my 3Sixty.
I am in no rush as my car will be in the body shop at least 2 more weeks.

So experiment my mad professor and solve the riddles of the universe!

Can't wait to find out what you discover!
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Old 07-09-2012, 04:11 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CamaroFTW View Post
But if we didn't want to cut into the Telecommunications wires, the Onstar sounds should already be on the front and rear speaker outs of the Scosche that is sent back to the X3. Should be able to grab the sounds off that and not have to splice into some other part of the car.
Yeah, if you want the high quality signal that comes from your HU to get processed by a $30 (or so) box. But since the 3sixty.3 allows 8 inputs, you should send a pure signal its way.
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