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Old 07-13-2012, 05:59 PM   #1
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HPDE/road course guys...question for ya?

Any issues with starving the motor of oil or heating the oil.

I'm about to drop a brand new HKE LSX427 motor in (see sig line for mods) and dont want to trash my second motor! I plan to run at Eagles Canyon Raceway here in Tx a few times a year to maybe monthly at track days.

Car is primarily just a street car then i figured since dumping all this money in I might as well have some fun with it.

I will be adding a large oil cooler to the LSX and running oil temp and press gauges. I may even add a 3 qt accusump if its needed.

So, anyone here have any experience with oil issues? Or issues in general?

Thanks
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Old 07-13-2012, 06:19 PM   #2
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The heating of the oil will be lessened with your cooler.
The number #1 killer of the Z06 engines, LS2s and LS3s at the track(curvy) is oil starvation. ....thats why the c6Z06 and the GS6spd get drysump.

Thats some serious equipment you're putting under the hood...adding drysump would be a good idea with a $20K 800hp powerplant. Thats not to say you will be able to put that power down in the turns.......you'll be lucky to have traction at 20% throttle.
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Old 07-14-2012, 12:28 PM   #3
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No road racers out there????????
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Old 07-14-2012, 05:40 PM   #4
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I have a big motor...LOL 500 cu in RHS with a maggie, my performance shop has run lots of data on my motor at the track, no issue with oil.. I even ran Daytona last year with the camaro, but we are talking about putting a dry sump system in the car for this years run at Daytona
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Old 07-14-2012, 10:20 PM   #5
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What are you doing with the LS3?
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Old 07-15-2012, 12:34 AM   #6
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Bull,

Dry sump is going to be a significant change to your engine build to support. I believe you just waited a LONG time for your existing crank so that means either doing that again to get a long snout cranks or using a different pump setup which may or may not work with your plan. A couple of companies I have been researching:

http://www.drysump.com/index1.htm

www.aviaid.com


http://www.daileyengineering.com/dailey_engineering_home.htm

For those that refer to the LS7 setup, it's not as good as it could be either. Watched two of them dump their guts all over the track at Spring Mountain Motorsports Ranch earlier this year. The LS7 setup is more a of a mix of dry and wet systems. Word is you need three scavenge pumps to be effective as each only pumps about 30% efficiency (as they are pumping air and oil). So if you are going to go that route, I would go all the way.

I like your idea of using an Accusump. Wondering if between that and an external oil cooler you would have enough volume in the system to account for the times when the pickup may suck some air. What it may not help with though is aeration of the oil as a result.

I'm still running a stock short block with only upper end motor work, tune and a Pfadt Stage 3 suspension. I am pulling pretty good G's through the corners (keeping up with and passing many formerly more capable cars like Corvettes, Porsches, etc at many of the tracks I ran) and some good high RPM's. Haven't seen any oil starvation manifest yet but going to due some data logging next time I am on the track to no kidding see what the car is doing. Either way, improvements to the system are on the list as I would rather have a little insurance than go into engine replacement sooner than necessary.

One last thing, you might give Pfadt Racing a call as they had a dry sump setup on the Ring Spec Camaro they just sold. Could probably get some pointers from them.

Will follow your thread to see how things progress from here.

Travis
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Old 07-15-2012, 02:38 PM   #7
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What are you doing with the LS3?
Im gonna send it out and have it sleeved then stuff it with all forged internals. May set this one up as a high compression NA motor, still trying to decide. But i will keep it and have it as a spare.
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Old 07-15-2012, 02:45 PM   #8
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Bull,

Dry sump is going to be a significant change to your engine build to support. I believe you just waited a LONG time for your existing crank so that means either doing that again to get a long snout cranks or using a different pump setup which may or may not work with your plan. A couple of companies I have been researching:

http://www.drysump.com/index1.htm

www.aviaid.com


http://www.daileyengineering.com/dailey_engineering_home.htm

For those that refer to the LS7 setup, it's not as good as it could be either. Watched two of them dump their guts all over the track at Spring Mountain Motorsports Ranch earlier this year. The LS7 setup is more a of a mix of dry and wet systems. Word is you need three scavenge pumps to be effective as each only pumps about 30% efficiency (as they are pumping air and oil). So if you are going to go that route, I would go all the way.

I like your idea of using an Accusump. Wondering if between that and an external oil cooler you would have enough volume in the system to account for the times when the pickup may suck some air. What it may not help with though is aeration of the oil as a result.

I'm still running a stock short block with only upper end motor work, tune and a Pfadt Stage 3 suspension. I am pulling pretty good G's through the corners (keeping up with and passing many formerly more capable cars like Corvettes, Porsches, etc at many of the tracks I ran) and some good high RPM's. Haven't seen any oil starvation manifest yet but going to due some data logging next time I am on the track to no kidding see what the car is doing. Either way, improvements to the system are on the list as I would rather have a little insurance than go into engine replacement sooner than necessary.

One last thing, you might give Pfadt Racing a call as they had a dry sump setup on the Ring Spec Camaro they just sold. Could probably get some pointers from them.

Will follow your thread to see how things progress from here.

Travis
In my recent research i have not really heard of the motor in the 5th gen having the same issues as the Vettes. Maybe its the extra capacity of our oil pan.

JusticePete said the only thing they did on the PeddersUSA Camaro is run a large oil cooler, nothing other than that. They had no starvation issues and they ran that car hard.

My plan is to add oil pressure and temp gauges and see how it goes with just a larger oil cooler that adds an additional 2 qts. I will also be running Amsoil 15w-50 which should help with temps somewhat.

Going with a dry sump is out of the question, seems way too complicated. I will talk to Erik at HKE and see what he says. He has build a few motors for the drift guys

I also think the oiling in the LSX block is a bit better than the LS3. The lifter trays in the LS3 heads is also a culprit. It traps oil up in the top of the motor under high g turns. My MAST LS7 heads will not be using lifter trays.
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Old 07-15-2012, 03:47 PM   #9
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I think the critical decision revolves around the type of monthly "trackday" driving you are going to do.

If you are going to the twisty track to tootle around in the yellow group and show folks your equipment in the pits you'll probably be fine without a sump.

But if you're gonna put some sticky tires on that beast and pull > 1G 8-10 times a lap and "drive the lugnuts off" then consider the following.....

You haven't seen camaros with this problem because among "amatuer" club racers, the camaro isn't really a popular platform....too heavy and lacks the specialized equipment.....I drive a Z06 and I'm the only one in the past few years who has shown up with a camaro to test. So your not seeing the issue in your research because the data simply isn't there.....it doesn't mean the risk isn't there.

And consider the history of the Z06.....
The C5Z06 is an amazing "out of the box" club racing platform. All you really need are pads and fluid and you can beat the holy hell out out that car for years. However.....
When GM, who encourages folks to track those cars, released the C6Z06 it came with dry-sump oil, trans and diff coolers. WHY? Because those were the "cost" issues from the first 5 years that they need to remedy to maintain profitability and reliability. Folks were blowing motors from oil starvation and frying trannys and diffs from overheating........

Equipment is always a personal choice and should be taylored to the task.

PS...I love my camaro....I just wish it was 3100lbs.
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Old 07-15-2012, 10:19 PM   #10
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Good reading in here... way beyond my build, but I'm interested to hear what you decide to do.

-Todd...
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Old 07-16-2012, 12:30 AM   #11
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In my recent research i have not really heard of the motor in the 5th gen having the same issues as the Vettes. Maybe its the extra capacity of our oil pan.

JusticePete said the only thing they did on the PeddersUSA Camaro is run a large oil cooler, nothing other than that. They had no starvation issues and they ran that car hard.

My plan is to add oil pressure and temp gauges and see how it goes with just a larger oil cooler that adds an additional 2 qts. I will also be running Amsoil 15w-50 which should help with temps somewhat.

Going with a dry sump is out of the question, seems way too complicated. I will talk to Erik at HKE and see what he says. He has build a few motors for the drift guys

I also think the oiling in the LSX block is a bit better than the LS3. The lifter trays in the LS3 heads is also a culprit. It traps oil up in the top of the motor under high g turns. My MAST LS7 heads will not be using lifter trays.
I like your thought process but wonder if volume alone will solve or at least help the problem. What concerns me is if the pickup sucks air it is going to do two things I would think: 1) cause a loss of pressure at the discharge side of the pump which cascades through the entire oil system and 2) subsequently aerate the oil (bubbles are not a good thing).

Taking into acount the above that is what I liked about your previous thought of using an Accusump or similar oil accumulator to null those pressure fluctuations should the pickup become a momentary air pump.

Like SPEEDMON talked about, the reason we have not heard much about failed LS3's in Camaros might be attributed to the number of Camaros that are running that hard. I mean practically every post I see on here talks about auto-x. There seem to be very few of us running the road track and fewer still that are moving beyond the "yellow" group and pushing the car real hard.

He is spot on when he talks about purpose built as well. From my perspective, if I had dropped the money and frustration into a engine that you have I would probably go the extra distance and do the dry sump. Cheap insurance by comparison.

Lifter trays never even crossed my mind. I'll have to research it a little more.

I used to run AMSOIL in my Duramax but went back to Rotella as it was cheaper and its what virtually every heavy equipment diesel on the planet seems to use without issue. Running Mobil 1 in the LS3 currently but might give AMSOIL another try but will wait to hear how it goes with you first. I am hitting about 290 deg on the oil temp for 20 - 30 minute sessions in SOCAL and Nevada but those are during the milder part of the year. That is why I started the other thread about external oil coolers because I know I am going to be pushing the temps to high in the heat of summer.

So let's see where this thread takes us. Some interesting discussions here. Oh, and I wish my Camaro was 3100 lbs too but not willing to sacrifice the street manners/comfort so it will continue to be the rolling pig. Maybe one day I'll convert to the Vette but until then I kind of like being one of the few "muscle cars" on the road course tearing it (and them) up.

Travis
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Old 07-16-2012, 12:57 AM   #12
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Well said Tadams......

F16.... don't ya just hate vette guys....we're just so opinionated....but it comes from almost 15 years of driving the LS platform on the track....and we hate when are rides are broken cuz we can't get a fix for our addiction.

The high probability scenario that seems to cause the starvation and the "blow" in the LS engines is high RPMs combined with high Gs. If you steer clear of this scenario and people do, it seems to reduce the risk.

And as an FYI, as soon as that 1LE comes out, I'm going to get one and beat the holy bejesus out of it at the track and see if how hard I can "push the envelope"......can't wait.

And maybe the deeper pan does help.....sounds logical....we'll see.
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Old 07-16-2012, 03:53 AM   #13
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Well said Tadams......

F16.... don't ya just hate vette guys....we're just so opinionated....but it comes from almost 15 years of driving the LS platform on the track....and we hate when are rides are broken cuz we can't get a fix for our addiction.

The high probability scenario that seems to cause the starvation and the "blow" in the LS engines is high RPMs combined with high Gs. If you steer clear of this scenario and people do, it seems to reduce the risk.

And as an FYI, as soon as that 1LE comes out, I'm going to get one and beat the holy bejesus out of it at the track and see if how hard I can "push the envelope"......can't wait.

And maybe the deeper pan does help.....sounds logical....we'll see.
Just realized your in Orange, I run HPDE with Corvette guys/gals from San Diego Corvette Owners Club. Ran a couple events (Chuckwalla and Spring Mountain) before I deployed cannot wait to get back at it this fall. Spring Mountain is my favorite by a long shot eventhough it's a hall to get up there from San Diego.

Travis
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Old 07-16-2012, 07:16 AM   #14
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Has anyone overfilled their motor oil capicity, say by a 1/2 to 1 quart to protect against any oil starvation issues? I know this also helps with the Corvette LS3 stavitation issues they see. May be some added insurance plus reduce some heat by added volume.

Later
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Old 07-16-2012, 08:22 AM   #15
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Has anyone overfilled their motor oil capicity, say by a 1/2 to 1 quart to protect against any oil starvation issues? I know this also helps with the Corvette LS3 stavitation issues they see. May be some added insurance plus reduce some heat by added volume.

Later
Ralph
Well that helps to an extent but you run the risk of aerating the oil from the crank couter-weights if it is too full which isn't a good thing either. Definitely want to ensure you are at the full mark. I go an extra 1/2 quart usually but probably wouldn't go too much more. Can't say for sure what is safe.

Either way you still have issues to contend with depending on how hard you drive. From the sounds of it, Bull isn't going to be driving miss daisy...

On another note, what tire and rim combo qre you running? Thinking about dropping to 18's on my car. Thanks.

Travis
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Old 07-16-2012, 11:47 AM   #16
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I think the critical decision revolves around the type of monthly "trackday" driving you are going to do.

If you are going to the twisty track to tootle around in the yellow group and show folks your equipment in the pits you'll probably be fine without a sump.

But if you're gonna put some sticky tires on that beast and pull > 1G 8-10 times a lap and "drive the lugnuts off" then consider the following.....

You haven't seen camaros with this problem because among "amatuer" club racers, the camaro isn't really a popular platform....too heavy and lacks the specialized equipment.....I drive a Z06 and I'm the only one in the past few years who has shown up with a camaro to test. So your not seeing the issue in your research because the data simply isn't there.....it doesn't mean the risk isn't there.

THIS.

The reason we aren't seeing the amount of oil starvation issues with the Camaro on track compared to the Corvette is that the sample set of folks REALLY driving the wheels off the Camaro is VERY small compared to the Corvette. Street tire track days definitely aren't going to push the oiling system past it's capabilities to adequately keep parts lubricated. Throw an R compound tire into the mix and you've got a scenario similar to the Corvette... it's a possibility that you could see issues, but you really do need to be seeing very high cornering loads repeatedly over a pretty good duration of time before you see problems. Some tracks are worse for oiling systems than others.

Lets be honest here... oil starvation is a concern with the Corvette when very aggressively driven on track and it's absolutely worth taking steps to avoid because the results can be so catastrophic, but the sky is not falling.

We haven't taken a hard look at this for Camaro because we ran an LS9 "dry" sump on our RingSpec Camaro build, but it's very likely that the deeper Camaro LS3 pan is pretty beneficial in keeping the oil volume around the pickup where it should be. We would also recommend running the car 1/2 or 1 quart high on track, that way when there is a significant oil volume in the head you will still end up with an artificially high oil volume at the pan to keep the pickup in the oil where it should be. Worst case scenario when running a little more oil is that you run the chance of ingesting a little oil into the intake and smoking on track until it's been burned off.

If you're building a race car with a built high dollar motor it's relatively cheap insurance to run a setup like Accusump or a full dry sump like ARE. Spend the extra cash to keep your 10,000 dollar engine happy over the long haul... but if you're a factory engined track day guy running street tires just go out there and have a great time with the car, the likelihood you run through anything but brake pads and tires is very slim.

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Old 07-16-2012, 03:31 PM   #17
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I think the critical decision revolves around the type of monthly "trackday" driving you are going to do..
I just want to take it out a few times a year maybe more to Eagles Canyon Raceway. I just found out about it and its only an hour and a half away. Just want to get it out on the track and let it stretch its legs. Plan on the Bridgestone RE-11 Potenzas that the Pedder Camaro was running.



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Like SPEEDMON talked about, the reason we have not heard much about failed LS3's in Camaros might be attributed to the number of Camaros that are running that hard.

Lifter trays never even crossed my mind. I'll have to research it a little more.

Travis

I know the Pedders Camaro ran pretty hard with no issues. The only thing they apparently did to the oiling was run a large cooler with it.

As for lifter trays, this is apparently where oil gets trapped in long left hand turns > 1.0G and holding that turn longer than about 4 seconds. Looks like a partial solution is drilling 1/2 inch holes in the lifter trays to aid in getting the oil back down.....my motor/Mast heads do not run the lifter trays


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Well said Tadams......

F16.... don't ya just hate vette guys....we're just so opinionated...
Yea, i made this same thread over on Corvette Forum under the tracking section and got slammed for running an after market blower I told them its just a fun street car that will see very limited novice driving at best....my goals were just to take it out and have a little fun. They all pretty much said my motor was going to grenade in the first turn unless i ran a dedicated dry sump setup....my response was "thanks guys, i wll only drive it around the block for fear of blowing up" I asked the wrong group I guess. Im getting much better info here.
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Old 07-16-2012, 03:39 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by PfadtRacing View Post
THIS.

The reason we aren't seeing the amount of oil starvation issues with the Camaro on track compared to the Corvette is that the sample set of folks REALLY driving the wheels off the Camaro is VERY small compared to the Corvette. Street tire track days definitely aren't going to push the oiling system past it's capabilities to adequately keep parts lubricated. Throw an R compound tire into the mix and you've got a scenario similar to the Corvette... it's a possibility that you could see issues, but you really do need to be seeing very high cornering loads repeatedly over a pretty good duration of time before you see problems. Some tracks are worse for oiling systems than others.

Lets be honest here... oil starvation is a concern with the Corvette when very aggressively driven on track and it's absolutely worth taking steps to avoid because the results can be so catastrophic, but the sky is not falling.

We haven't taken a hard look at this for Camaro because we ran an LS9 "dry" sump on our RingSpec Camaro build, but it's very likely that the deeper Camaro LS3 pan is pretty beneficial in keeping the oil volume around the pickup where it should be. We would also recommend running the car 1/2 or 1 quart high on track, that way when there is a significant oil volume in the head you will still end up with an artificially high oil volume at the pan to keep the pickup in the oil where it should be. Worst case scenario when running a little more oil is that you run the chance of ingesting a little oil into the intake and smoking on track until it's been burned off.

If you're building a race car with a built high dollar motor it's relatively cheap insurance to run a setup like Accusump or a full dry sump like ARE. Spend the extra cash to keep your 10,000 dollar engine happy over the long haul... but if you're a factory engined track day guy running street tires just go out there and have a great time with the car, the likelihood you run through anything but brake pads and tires is very slim.
$10,000 bucks I wish. Its quite a bit north of that just for the long block. the fuel system alone is over 3 grand. Im gonna call HKE and talk to Erik about his thoughts on drysump. I know he has build a bunch of motors for the corvette road racers.

I have also received a few PMs for a few guys that hang in the California section....seems they road race quite a bit. and PyrObOy has a very similar setup to mine and he has been on the road course a bunch with no issues.

I will just add a nice aftermarket cooler, a quality oil press gauge and oil temp gauge and take it out and see what happens. I will have my sleeved/forged LS3 short block standing by for the just in case.

Keep it coming guys, I think we are all learning something here.
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Old 07-16-2012, 08:35 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by tadams72 View Post
On another note, what tire and rim combo qre you running? Thinking about dropping to 18's on my car. Thanks.

Travis
I am running TSW 18x9.5 wheels with Nitto NT01's 275/40 tires on all four corners. They really perform well.

One thing I can say is I really push the car hard on the track. No starvation issues as of yet but not running R compound tires either. But I do see forces in the 1.2g range. Water temps as high as 241 and oil temps 300+. In a 20-30 minute session it is all she can do....I have felt the motor nose over at 5000rpm's from running hot. Looking at a large oil cooler and a aluminum radiator. But also tracking a car in 100+ degree heat also takes its toll in other areas, like I just found out. The outer half shaft CV boots can not handle the heat. Mine are seeping grease out from the boot band because the grease becomes liquified. Not good. There was not a drop of greese on my track wheels but after changing the wheels and driving 2 hours home both factory wheels had grease on them.



Here is a video of me driving at CMP. Pushing the Camaro as hard as I could push.....

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Old 07-16-2012, 09:09 PM   #20
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Ralph, thank for posting this....this is exactly the info i was looking for. This is all i want to do with my car. Run it on Eagles Canyon at the monthly track days. I have similar Pedders suspension as you, see sig line, and i run the Bridgestone 305/30 R19s on all corners. I wll have the CTS-V brakes and ZL1 rotors after the new motor goes in. Then i have to ride with a track instructor for a day to show im not a complete buffoon. Is this video of the "yellow group" i have been reading references about in this thread? Sorry, i am a complete newb to running on the road course.

Like Justice Pete said to me, just add a big oil cooler and have fun...Looks like maybe a better radiator also.
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Old 07-16-2012, 09:40 PM   #21
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Then i have to ride with a track instructor for a day to show im not a complete buffoon. Is this video of the "yellow group" i have been reading references about in this thread?
I run in NASA and with Turn1 and run in a SOLO run group with no instuctor. This groups requires a point by either side and anywhere on the track. The next level is no point by required! NASA and Turn1 do not use colors for there run groups. I am doing a PCA event in September and in a white run group with them. They use green, blue, white and black is the one with the most experience. But all in all it is all about seat time. I try to do one track day a month!

Later
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Old 07-17-2012, 02:26 AM   #22
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Phat! (cool name)

Nice vid......nice turn ins....good patience with the GTR....pressed into a point by.

Were those your sway bars sqeaking? (LOL)

...And Dewitts makes a high capacity rad with an integrated cooler....not that much $$ either.
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Old 07-17-2012, 02:37 AM   #23
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Phat! (cool name)

Nice vid......nice turn ins....good patience with the GTR....pressed into a point by.

Were those your sway bars sqeaking? (LOL)

...And Dewitts makes a high capacity rad with an integrated cooler....not that much $$ either.
Do tell, about the radiator. Thanks.

Travis
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Old 07-17-2012, 03:07 AM   #24
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Well as long as we are posting HPDE videos I guess I will throw in here.

This is from Chuckwalla Valley Raceway about 50 miles outside Palm Springs early this year. Came in new with a capable car but did not use a driver coach and just picked my way around the track trying to find the best lines. Day went ok as my times were middle of the pack of some very capable cars. Definitely could have done better with a good coach to work the track with first. Lots of Lotus' on the track that day and they frustrated the hell out of me. They don't accelerate all that great but they are light and corner like crazy. I would pull them on the straights to a good gap but by the time I exited the next corner they were right on my ass again. Speeds on this track were sweepers in the 60's and the two long straights pegging the rev limter in 3rd at 118 mph. Good lesson in the limitation of a high hp car that weighs two tons. Still had a blast and came out tops in the Pony Car Division.



This is from Spring Mountain Motorsports Ranch just north of Las Vegas. My favorite track so far. Also the location for the Ron Fellows Corvette Driving School. Awesome track with many configurations. This was the 3.1 mile loop that incorporated some blind approaches at speed and really fun bus stops. This was a two day event so I had a driver/coach the first day to help me learn the track. Lance was very versed and capable despite being every bit of 70 something this guy could drive the wheels of anything. That being said by day two I was promoted to the mixed intermediate/advanced group from which this video was taken. As you can see my Vengeance Racing Powered/Pfadt Racing Suspended pig of a Camaro held it's own in a group of what would have been considered much more capable cars. Anyhow, speeds on this track were sweepers at around 70 mph, hair pins much less, and straights as much as 130 mph.



Did I mention how much fun it is to see the look of the Corvette, Porsche, and other owners when they have to do a point by on a muscle car! Seriously though I have to give much respect because all my track day partners are Vette drivers and several of them spank me. (Full Disclosure)

Now I just have to figure out how to shoot that high tech video with the track layout and accellerometer to show the G's!

To keep somewhat on target of the thread, really thinking Accusump, oil cooler, or perhaps the DeWitt radiator SPEEDMON was talking about. Of course this car is still on stock Pirellis so new tires are a must. Leaning toward taking my DR's off the 18x10 Forgestar F14's and getting another set for the front to run 18x10's all the way around on a NT01 or R888 tire. Thoughts from the group? Thanks.

Travis
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Old 07-17-2012, 06:15 AM   #25
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Were those your sway bars sqeaking? (LOL)
LOL! I wish it was the sways I could fix that....That is my seat creaking! I am big boned, 300#! It is hard to fix my weight.....

Want more information on the Dewitts Coolers?????

Later
Ralph
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