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Old 12-28-2007, 11:41 AM   #1
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Hey Tag! Have you been trained to draw blood yet?

I'm sure it isn't the case, but the article makes it sound as if Joe Officer will administer the breatalyzer or take your blood by force...your choice.

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/12/28/d...ed-blood-draw/

Tag, have you had any experience with this "program" yet?
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Old 12-28-2007, 11:42 AM   #2
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Sorry, this probably should be put in the "Off-topic Discussions" forum. If someone could move it, that would be great. My bad.
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Old 12-28-2007, 11:55 AM   #3
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Woah...I hadn't read this yet. Technically, we have the right to take breath/and or blood. We handle it this way...

DWI = breath

Intox assault &
Intox manslaughter = Blood drawl (whether you like it or not). Done by a nurse at a hospital and blood is taken to Medical Examiners office.

This is what you agree to do when you sign for your license. If you refuse when the time comes, you get your license revoked and you get charged w/ the offense. You can refuse the breath test...that's fine and you lose your license and get booked for DWI.

You can refuse the blood test (again, which is only employed in the case of serious bodily injury or death to any other party), but the blood will be taken anyway.

Personally, I see problems w/ the police taking blood. Now, if you are in BFE where there are no nurses present or on call to do this and the PD had been properly trained and licensed, the driver is SOL. I can't say how others will do this, but OUR policies haven't changed.

This sounds much more like it's out in rural counties. I hope what I said clears it up somewhat. Feel free to ask questions.

Oh, and new Supreme Court ruling says that we now only need to get one blood drawl from the DWI driver. It used to be that we had to wait another two hours to get the second to see if the driver was going up or coming down in BAC. This is great, because that was two hours sittting and waiting at the hospital for the same nurse to take another drawl. Now, we can get on with it!!!!
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Old 12-28-2007, 02:55 PM   #4
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Man Tag, I respect what you do. You keep our streets here in San Antonio safe to drive on!
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Old 12-28-2007, 03:01 PM   #5
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It's nice to have an (several) officers that are vocal on these boards. Not only can you guys keep us updating on laws and what not, but it's nice to know that officers are real people too who like cars and aren't just pigs put on earth to piss people off. Wish there was local cop from the bay on these boards who posted regularly.
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Old 12-28-2007, 04:47 PM   #6
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I personally know plenty of officers...and they all seem very nice in own respects. It's just the few that take the meaning of that badge and distort it - hence, distorting the public's view. Much like the teachers who complain they don't get paid enough; we don't ALL share that view...but that's WAAAYY

Thanks for the input, TAG.
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Old 12-29-2007, 12:19 AM   #7
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You guys are welcome!

I love doing what I do. But, it's just like the quote in my sig...if no one does it, who will help you when you need it? We need people who are willing to go out there and lock up the bad guys while helping the good guys.

I've said it before here...I'll say it again. There's a lot of officers out there who've let the regular day to day activities get to them...and are tired of the drama and BS that some people create for themselves (and there's a lot of it! ). There's the good that will always help, do the right thing, etc. And...there's those that we are ashamed to say worked w/ our dept. They eventually make the wrong decision and are dealt w/ accordingly . But, aside from the drama, there's a lot more important issues that are taken care of which are truly gratifying in the end (catching a murderer a few months ago for example).

If you want a good explanation on why some officers have bad attitudes, read back to that list I posted a while back. Like I said, that list is TRUE!!!
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Old 12-30-2007, 01:10 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAG UR IT View Post
But, aside from the drama, there's a lot more important issues that are taken care of which are truly gratifying in the end (catching a murderer a few months ago for example).
That must be a great feeling knowing you possibly stopped someone from killing another innocent person and got them locked up where they belong. Plans for my career will give me opportunity's to catch/lock up horrid people as well. I applied and got accepted already to UTSA, so next year I will be a full time student there majoring in Computer Science/Information Technology or a Law degree. From there I plan on joining the FBI following my dream. Its not a job for everyone, but for me.. I'm up for the challenge.
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Old 12-30-2007, 01:35 AM   #9
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Oh, this guy actually did kill someone. He shot his dad 5 times. He then tried to kill his stepmom and threatened to kill his girlfriend. Police showed up, mom told son PD was there, and son went nuts shooting dad, etc. He ran and about 30-40 min later, the helicopter found him and me and another guy went and got him. Felt damn good catching that guy.

Go for the FBI, bro. I wanted to do that for years like my dad. My dad was actually 3rd from the top...assisstant deputy director out in LA. I've got tons of respect for the guy. He's lead an amazing life. 23 years w/ the FBI...long time. And...he was forced to retire due to the age requirment deal. If not, he'd still be there today...doing what he loved to do best.
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Old 12-30-2007, 03:12 AM   #10
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TAG man, cops down here latley been having some real deal issues of there own, let alone deal with the public (from Vancouver, Canada btw).... we got some really f'ed up issues with the whole taser thing right now... a few people died from cops tasering them (one on video which shows the cop tasered him for no reason). And to add to it, we had a few screwed up cases of force abuse, like video's/witnesses clearly showing extensive force for no reason..... five cops beating one guy....etc.

With that being said, to tell you the truth we have had some really big issues with cops here (VPD, RCMP, etc.) that lead me to not really like/trust cops.

I typed all of that really I guess just to hear how is it out in Texas with cops... what kind of issues are you guys facing (internally and externally). Also, as you probably know Vancouver is very multi-cultural.... any issues related to that down there and cops??
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Old 12-30-2007, 03:14 AM   #11
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And oh yeah TAG, props for you doing your job man... I'm not sure I could do it, speacially with the kind of things you guys have to deal with in the states (sorry that I'm being stereoypical with this assumption, but being Canadian I cant imagine our crimes being anything close to what you guys have to deal with).
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Old 12-30-2007, 10:44 AM   #12
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San Antonio actually has a lower crime rate than most cities. It's actually pretty good. But, like everywhere else, we have our problems.

Sorry to hear about your probs up there. I can't and won't comment on them seeing as though I haven't the foggiest idea what happened. Remember this though...Cameras do show you what happened..from ONE angle. Long story short. We watched a video of a chase which ended in dude crashing, trying to run (right by an officer), and it appears as though the officer shot him for NO reason. Really, this video was horrible evidence for the officer...we were all shocked when he just flat out shot him. Then, the instructor showed video two. Video two shows the guy running towards the officer and in this one, you can see bad guy pull out a gun bringing it up towards the officer. Then, you see officer shoot him. Plain as day. It is increadible what a camera CAN catch....and is also increadible how it can miss some of the most important parts.

We have our own problems on this force...just as with anywhere else. It'll happen everywhere. Out of my class, we lost one cause he's a moron and was trying to pick up a prostitute....which happened to be an undercover SAPD VICE officer!!! What a MORON...and he was still in his SAPD blues. This guy was not the brightest, I tell ya. Then, two more from my class decided they wanted to go out drinking...got drunk, and stole the bar patio chairs. County watched them, knew it was THEM, and management later tried to get back their chairs w/out getting police involved. The refused to cooperate and were terminated from the PD. Some people are just plain STUPID. I'll agree....there are a few out there who really make it look bad for the others...and it's a black eye everytime something like this happens. Oh, we just had two guys supposedly forcing a female prostitute to give them sexual favors... God, stuff like that makes me sick. What the hell goes through your mind to make you think that craps ok?????? Every year, it never fails, there will be a coiuple.

But, again, as far as going into specifics with your stories, I know nothing abou tthem. And, if I did, some will like my responses and some won't. We've done pretty big discussions over this in the past, so.
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Old 12-30-2007, 11:45 AM   #13
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So first off, this quote was my response, followed by a rebuttal, followed by yet another post from me.

It was in regards to this article

Quote:
Hearing Impaired Man Tased by Police
(Wichita, KS)

Donnell Williams had just gotten out of the bath tub, wearing only a towel around his waist, when he turned the corner to see guns pointing right at him.

"I ain't never been so scared," says Williams.

Police forced entry into Williams home while responding to a shooting, but it turned out to be a false call. They had no idea at the time the call wasn't real and that Williams is hearing impaired. Without his hearing aid he is basically deaf.

"I kept going to my ear yelling that I was scared. I can't hear! I can't hear!"

Officers were worried about their own safety because at the time it appeared Williams was refusing to obey their commands to show his hands. That's when they shot him with a Taser.

Deputy Chief Robert Lee of the Wichita Police Department says, "This one occurred on the worst of calls, that being a shooting. The first few minutes getting control of the scene are very, very important."

Once the facts were all sorted out, officers repeatedly apologized to Williams. Police wish it never happened, but with the information they had at the time, their choices were limited.

"Do I wish there would have been some way they were notified in advance this gentleman was hearing impaired? I certainly do. No one is happy with the way it worked out," says Lee.

Williams was not hurt in the incident. Police say the shooting call came from a cell phone but they still don't know who made it or why.

The case is being reviewed by the department.
Now here is my response in the thread. It seems appropriate to post here since a lot of you guys are asking similar questions.

Quote:
I know this is pretty much a losing battle, but somethings just need to be said.

First off, yes, these cops were idiots. I can't see any way this guy was enough of a threat to warrant the tasering.

Our profession gets entirely too much crap from people that simply don't understand what it's like. I'm not saying any person saying "those cops did wrong" doesn't understand, or is giving crap. Things like that need to be said. What I am tired of is the hatred. The people that run with things for the wrong reasons. The people that say "The only good cop is a dead cop".

There are racist cops, plenty of them.

There are idiot cops, more than plenty of them.

There are corrupted cops, a few, less than 5%. (This varies by department, most have none, but some of the bigger departments can't avoid it.)

POST (Police-Officer-Standards-and-Training) requirements vary from state to state. California having the most intense, and decreasing from there.

99.9% of what cops do isn't news worthy, hell, most cops are never a part of an incident like this.

But yes, there are cops that are bad at their jobs. Lots. But nowhere near a majority.

There are so many points to be made, and I'll try to cover a few.

First off, cop's have one of the most difficult jobs in the world. So much of the adult population hates us. To the point that a small percentage want us dead. Or just want us dead to make sure they don't have to do time for crimes they have committed. So you always have that paranoia. As well as having to deal with people that make it plainly obvious that they detest you, even having you around. People fight you, even when you do things COMPLETELY by the book, and even times when you try to give them a break.

Secondly, you can't always keep out the bad seeds. If someone sucks at their job in most other professions, they get fired cause they don't do it right, and maybe make a few people upset. In police work, there is a national incident made, and people cry out about abuse of power, and how cops always overstep their bounds. You pretty much can't get more intensive than a police background check. It involves talking to most of their family, friends, their old bosses, ex-girlfriends, co-workers, and references. Followed by an intensive psych test, as well as a psych evaluation by a psychiatrist. Then a lie-detector test, going over pretty much any possible crime, or any other things that could prevent them from being a good police officer. Thing is, lie-detectors can be beaten, so can psych evals. You can't insure that every police officer is going to be a good one. But the thing is, you catch most of the bad ones.

Thirdly, take the Utah taser thing. If you isolate the moment of the tasering, if those few seconds were all you saw, he was right. The guy turned away, wasn't following commands, and started reaching into his pocket. Most cops would have tasered him in that circumstance. No way of knowing if the guy is reaching for a gun. So on one hand you have a guy tasered, that is 5 seconds of pain, for not listening to directions while in custody. On the other hand, if you don't taser, and there is a gun in his pocket, you're dead. Which would you pick? It's only so bad because the officer wasn't very accommodating during the lead up.

Fourth, the people that are angry at police about the laws, guess what, officers uphold laws that were made by the people that the population voted for.

Fifth, you want to take away tasers, that have saved thousands of lives, as well as reducing injuries on tons more? So instead of a jolt that is painful for 5 seconds then dissipates, he could have been hit with pepper spray, which causes intense buring that lasts for hours, as well as the feeling of not being able to breathe. Or maybe struck with a baton? Horrible aching, brusing and possible broken bones. I know what I'd rather have. And if you say they shouldn't have done anything in the first place, I agree, but without the taser it would have been even worse. This problem wasn't caused by the equipment. PEBKAC anyone?

Sixth, you want tasers elevated to the point of personal firearm on the escalation scale? So if you're an officer, and someone is grabbing a gun, which are you going to go with? The taser? It's MUCH less accuate than a gun, and if even one of the barbs miss it's completely useless, and you have to fully reload a cartridge before you can fire it again. You're dead. Or if one of the barbs gets hung up on clothes too far from skin, it won't work either. You're dead. Or are you going to go for your gun?

Seventh, officers try to stay on the side of caution. And I'm sure you would too. Take the Utah encounter. Lets say that half the time people go in their pocket when resiting arrenst they are going for a firearm or other weapon, and the other half is nothing, or a wallet. So lets say this incident happens 30 times. With caution, 30 people get tased, 15 when they were "only" disobeying orders while in custody. But guess what, 30 officers go home to their family. Yeah, those 15 people had to endure 5 seconds of pain and some minor scrapes and bruises from the fall. Well, they should have listened to the officer when he gave them commands, using power that the officials the person elected gave them. Upholding laws that the person was breaking. But all 30 officers go home to their wives, their children, their family and friends. Or, if you don't go with caution, yeah, those 15 people have no tasering, but probably get put in a hold, which are pretty painful, but necessary to gain control of the person. Could last more than 5 seconds, maybe not. But you also have 15 officers dead. 15 officers that won't be coming home to their family and friends. 15 officers whose LIVES have been ended.
I was responded to by this person.

Quote:
PolloDiablo:

How often are reports made and appropriate action taken when these racist, idiot, or corrupt cops do step over the line? If you see your buddy intentionally cross the line with someone, maybe act a little rougher than he should, or abuse his right to search and seizure when he clearly didn't have the right to do so, do you report this action? Or do you simply let it go, further perpetuating this idea that cops are always going to cover their own asses before worrying about the suspects rights?

I think this is the real issue most people have with law enforcement. A small amount of corruption or misconduct is going to be expected in any profession or organization, especially one such as the police force; but much of the public is under the impression that all cops, even the good ones, are always going to look out for their buddies before the well-being of a civilian. People feel like incidents such as this happen and nothing is done, no discipline is given, no lessons are learned. The public is under the impression that the cops are, to a certain degree, untouchable ; and that amount of control and potential for abuse is pretty frightening and unsettling, and those kind of feelings breed a certain inherent mistrust and disdain for Law Enforcement in general. It's sad that things work that way, and that good officers are given a bad rap because of it, but until the police decide to start working on their PR and actually dealing with cops that do break the law it's a feeling that will simply continue to fester.

Police agencies need to show the public that they are willing to harshly, but appropriately, discipline those officers that do cross the line. I'm not talking about public lashings or any kind of unfair punishment, I just mean showing the public that cops will be held up to the same laws that they're meant to enforce and that abuse of power will not be tolerated under any circumstances. This secrecy and "looking out for your buddy" mentality, while admirable in a "Band of Brothers" kind of way, only further perpetuates the idea that cops feel like they're above the law or beyond reproach. The public needs to see that there is an actual concern for their well-being and protection of their rights, and then maybe you would see a turn-around in people's opinions of cops.
And then my response.
Quote:
First off, thank you for your response, it's great to know that there are people that can have civil discourse about these things without resulting to mud-slinging.

To be honest, A LOT more cops than you think are dismissed for the reasons you state. Thing is, it really is the media. If an officer is dismissed, half the time the paper runs a little three line article buried under the police blotter. "Officer gets dismissed after investigation into Taser incident." And 90% of the population would consider it a waste(as well as being extremely tactless) of taxpayer money to erect a billboard that says "Officer so-and-so is no longer with the department due to Tasering, and he now faces criminal charges"

Example, a while ago, and officer used a Taser on the back of someones neck to get him to release a drug balloon from his anus. (Little known fact about the Taser, placed on the back of the neck, you defecate) This of course made front page news. He was suspended immediately, and I don't know a single officer that thought he was acting properly. So of course, the media slams everyone involved, including Taser intl, and the guy's Taser instructor. What they COMPLETELY failed to report, was the firing, and subsequent FELONY charges that were filed. And they ran a TINY article buried in the paper when he was found guilty.

In recent times, especially with anyone coming out of the academy in the last 5-10 years, there isn't that whole "Cover for each other" mentality. In fact, I had a similar conversation with a retired officer, he said that policing was so different now, he just doesn't understand it. That there are so many officers willing to "rat-out" other officers. I told him, I couldn't imagine it any other way, because how are people supposed to respect when we enforce laws on them, when we don't on ourselves. Who does it then? The citizens? Anarchy and vigilantism help no one.

Modern Generation cops are much quicker to avoid corruption, and yet the public hates us more because any mistake is more visible. So although police ethics, use of force, accountability has GREATLY increased over the past ten years, people think it's getting worse, because there is more news of it. So people hate the police more, and it really starts to get to some people.

Just realize, that 90% of mistakes cops make are made national news. Even then, thats only hundreds of officers a year, and most of those aren't serious mistakes, or mistakes at all, just media only putting half the details, and when they all come out later and show innocence, the media fails to print that. And when you realize that there are hundreds of thousands of officers(hell, NYPD alone is 36,000 sworn officers). That percentage is pretty low.

We're trying people, trust me.
And just to add, tasers don't kill people. There has never been a death ruled to be caused by a Taser. People have been Tasered, and then later died, but from unrelated causes. Any death from a Taser would be immediate. The thing is, Tasers are used thousands of times a month, and yet "___ dies after being tasered" only happens a few times a year.

It's called excited delirium. And its usage has been around since long before the Taser came on the scene. And while some people argue that it's a "conpiriscy to cover up police brutality" the thing is, almost 100% of the people who die of it "tend to be overweight males, high on drugs, and display extremely erratic and violent behavior. But victims also share something else in common. The disorder seems to manifest itself when people are under stress, particularly when in police custody, and is often diagnosed only after the victims die. " - ABC News.

Yes, there is a high percentage of this occurring in police custody, but common sense dictates that if someone is "high on drugs, and display[ing] extremely erratic and violent behavior" that the police would probably be called, and they would take them into custody, and yes, this would be a perfect situation to use a Taser in.

And again, it was used before Tasers were used, and people used to attribute it to pepper-spray, or handcuffs. Tasers just happen to be the newest thing to blame it on.
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Old 12-30-2007, 11:58 AM   #14
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Nice. Even though it is slightly O/T, the taser thing has just gotten blown WAY out of proportion. Of all the folks who argue against it, 99% of them have no alternative in mind. uh....would you rather the police use their real guns?
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Old 12-30-2007, 04:26 PM   #15
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I see what you guys are saying about tasering and all.... I guess I was realyl just using tasering as an example as to whats going on here..... really what I was trying to say was, is that just seeing what cops here have been pulling off recently I don't much faith in them anymore. That isn't to say I put much faith in the media either who obviously over-do everything..... crime rates have actually fell over the last 20 years in Vancouver, yet it seems, crime has gone up(media propaganda anyone?).

BTW.... you are right about taser's they all pretty much die after tasering later on.... but I believe we have once case here where the guy died immediately... I will look into it and see if i can find it.... if anyone wants.... and just an fyi.... I believe tasers have been temporarily suspended from use here in BC due to many "deaths by taser" in such a short time span.

One thing I will say though about police I have encountered in the US versus in Canada.... and it might just be me that I ran into a bunch of pricks (mind you I only travel by road in the west (WA, OR, CA).... but man were all the cops we got at road blocks or well, being pulled over for speeding (I wasn't driving, lol), were all mean man.... like really rude.... cops here are almost all never rude (well atleast RCMP isnt, some local PD's can be)..... whats up with that???
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Old 12-30-2007, 08:28 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay View Post
One thing I will say though about police I have encountered in the US versus in Canada.... and it might just be me that I ran into a bunch of pricks (mind you I only travel by road in the west (WA, OR, CA).... but man were all the cops we got at road blocks or well, being pulled over for speeding (I wasn't driving, lol), were all mean man.... like really rude.... cops here are almost all never rude (well atleast RCMP isnt, some local PD's can be)..... whats up with that???
I think you may have answered your own question...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay View Post
really what I was trying to say was, is that just seeing what cops here have been pulling off recently I don't much faith in them anymore. That isn't to say I put much faith in the media either who obviously over-do everything..... crime rates have actually fell over the last 20 years in Vancouver, yet it seems, crime has gone up(media propaganda anyone?).
The increasing mentality that you describe of lack of faith in law enforcement, and the media amplifiing that by not telling the WHOLE truth I think that'd be enough to but anybody on edge. Moreso an entire group who've committed themselves to protecting said people.
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Old 12-30-2007, 09:00 PM   #17
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I've seen the oposite, when I cross the border all the cops that I saw in the states just seemed pissed off, granted I dodn't see too many but thats the way I appeared. Up here they look somewhat more laid back
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