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Dragstrip and Launch Techniques Discussion 1/4 mile, 1/8 mile, launch discussions.

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Old 07-22-2012, 05:13 PM   #1
mdiaz0618
 
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Heel and Toeing v6

Whats up everyone, kind of a nooby question here, but whenever i heel and toe into 2nd gear, I either 1. give it alot of gas and end up going so slow, or 2. not giving enough and jerking alittle. 3. I give it the right amount of gas and i still jerk. Im practicing my ass off and still cant get it down right, Anybody else on the same boat? How much gas are you suppose to give it when you downshift into 2nd? v6 1LS

Thanks
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Old 07-22-2012, 07:26 PM   #2
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Wish I could explain, I generally just "feel" it. If I'm going slow and I'm downshifting to 2nd I normally give it a small pulse and that does the trick perfectly. It really depends on the speed. 2nd goes from about 8mph at idle to 65mph at redline so the closer your current speed is to 8mph the less gas you should give it. Like if I'm on a hill stopped waiting for a light, when it turns green I'll roll in neutral if its steep enough then press the clutch in and put it in 2nd. When I hit 8 mph I let off the clutch with no gas and the gear engages smoothly. Now lets say I'm rolling on flat ground same situation with the car in 2nd and the clutch in, and I'm going say 20 mph, I'll give her about 20-25% throttle. If I'm going 45-65 mph and I want to go into 2nd, which are likely race like situations, I'll give it a minimum of 60-80% throttle to get that perfect downshift with no jerk.

How many miles do you have? You probably just need practice.

My best advice, start by giving it more gas than you think you need and work your way down into finding the sweet spot. You won't cause too much damage giving it more gas but you will if you aren't giving enough and you jerk it, which means you're bogging.

Lol I hope I helped even a tiny bit, very hard to explain over the internet.
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Old 07-22-2012, 07:33 PM   #3
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haha wow, thanks bro, yeah I have about 3700 miles on it, I was driving to Jersey today and all of a sudden i was thinking to myself, why the hell do i keep jerking into 2nd going into turns and stuff lol
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Old 07-22-2012, 07:37 PM   #4
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Alot of people say that you dont have to heel toe in everyday driving situations, but how are you ever going to turn without doing it? haha what part of NY are you?
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:54 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdiaz0618 View Post
Alot of people say that you dont have to heel toe in everyday driving situations, but how are you ever going to turn without doing it? haha what part of NY are you?
You do you just don't need to do it all that much. If you live in NY you have to downshift a lot so you better learn the right way or you will mess your car up quick ya know? I'm over in Yonkers/White Plains!

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Originally Posted by mdiaz0618 View Post
haha wow, thanks bro, yeah I have about 3700 miles on it, I was driving to Jersey today and all of a sudden i was thinking to myself, why the hell do i keep jerking into 2nd going into turns and stuff lol
Yeah this is my first stick car and I've heard from others that its a bit tricky of a stick car to drive. 1st gear is like a 4.x gear ratio too so its very short, i think thats why going from 1st to 2nd without jerking takes a little more practice at first.
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Old 07-24-2012, 06:02 AM   #6
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mdiaz - are you really talking about heel & toe (where the brake pedal is involved) or just double-clutch downshifting to get the revs matched (and lose the jerking)?

Pedal spacing on most cars isn't particularly conducive to true heel-toe'ing, and for most street driving the simpler double-clutch is sufficient.

Either way, it's a "feel" thing that comes with practice.


On edit . . . the wider the transmission gear ratios are spaced, the more you have to kick the gas to get the revs matched. In most cars, dropping into 1st from 2nd at any speed above a jog is more trouble than it's really worth.


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Last edited by Norm Peterson; 07-24-2012 at 06:15 AM.
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Old 07-24-2012, 10:34 AM   #7
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this might help you.

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Old 07-24-2012, 06:26 PM   #8
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Norm, yes I'm talking about heel toeing
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Old 07-24-2012, 07:34 PM   #9
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and Norm, how do you double clutch when going into a turn?
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Old 07-25-2012, 09:02 AM   #10
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On the street typically approaching an exit ramp - down one gear before I start to brake, down another just before corner entry and after I've got my braking done. That's in the 5-speed cars, sometimes in my wife's 6-speed car I'll squeeze one more in between depending on conditions. A few tenths of a second on the street means nothing.

If I'm being held up badly enough in the turn to want yet another downshift, it'll be because I won't be moving fast enough for it to upset the chassis balance even if I do get a little clumsy (which still happens once in a while even after as long as I've been driving).

Anybody who claims to get every single downshift perfect with no jerking ever - has a case of selective memory.


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Old 07-25-2012, 09:10 AM   #11
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idk I'm starting to think the camaro wasnt meant for easy heel toeing, im still messing up fml lol, what if you put it in neutral, brake and after the turn put it in 2nd and go on from there?
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Old 07-25-2012, 10:41 AM   #12
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Ever since Audi got into trouble with "unintended acceleration" (aka "pedal mis-application") back in the mid-1980's, cars have not been set up with H-T in mind. Of all the cars in my driveway now, my wife's Legacy 2.5GT is probably set up for it the best.

I think you need to get the matter of rev-matching down first, and even when done in a perfectly straight line just this part takes a little practice.

1. Clutch in/shift into the neutral gate/clutch out.
2. Kick gas to bring revs up and then get out of the gas.
3. Clutch in/downshift to lower gear/clutch out. Don't wait for the engine revs to start falling - do this while the engine revs are dropping to or slightly through the rpm that the lower gear wants to see at whatever your road speed is.

Even though there are several distinct operations involved, they really just sort of all flow together without much thought after a while.


Coasting in neutral is a poor choice (and may even be illegal in some areas).


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Old 07-25-2012, 10:44 AM   #13
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Thanks norm, can you do this while braking and turning though?
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Old 07-25-2012, 11:19 AM   #14
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First things first. Straight lines for now.





Yes, it's possible. If you're cornering very hard at all, you have to be smoother. If you're also braking, you also have to get that gas kick done without spiking the pressure you're putting on the brake pedal or taking much pressure off it. You can upset the car otherwise.

I've heard it said that braking is the last skill that fully develops . . . FWIW


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Old 07-25-2012, 12:56 PM   #15
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thanks everyone
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Old 07-25-2012, 08:31 PM   #16
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what are you guys talking about? you are all over the place. double clutching????
there is no practical reason to double clutch a 5th gen. if you think so, do more research.
heel and toe is just to avoid shift locking(my favorite drift entry method). you have to be hauling ass to do it correctly and beneficially.
please don't be practicing on the street. and if you are, thats why it seems so hard for you. go to a track, haul ass into a corner, ill bet youll get it everytime if you know the idea and the purpose.
while braking hard into corner, with clutch in, you simply blurp the throttle. you do not ride the throttle. the rpms will rise back up, and when they peak or start to fall you let out the clutch while still braking. then as you cross into the apex, ease off brake, and ease on the throttle just after passing apex.

depends on the car, but sometimes you can do it backwards(use your toe to blurp throttle)
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Old 07-26-2012, 06:30 AM   #17
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Yes, there is a reason, and it's called "being kind to the synchros". The better you match revs inside the tranny, the less work the synchros have to do in "speeding up" all the slower-turning bits from the clutch disc to the countershaft to match what the road speed requires them to be at. And the longer the synchros will live.

You only have to be driving enthusiastically enough to know you want to be in a lower gear going through a turn or as you are slowing down approaching a traffic signal that you can tell is about to go green. It's a mindset about being in the 'right' gear all of the time.

Blipping the throttle with the clutch disengaged is better than not doing anything at all with the throttle, but that's still not likely to get all of the above pieces fully up to speed. A "lazy man's double-clutch" is the way I see that, kind of halfway there.

I've been double-clutching on the street since the early 1970's - which predates drifting as it is now known by 15 years or so - and all of my cars since then have been manual tranny cars. I use the technique at least 4 times on my 5 mile drive to work (9 today, now that I stop and count). So I do have some basis for opinion here. No, I have never worn stringback gloves or a tweed cap.


Yes, it's certainly possible to use your toe on either the brake or the throttle and vice-versa for your heel. Call it an individual person and individual car model thing as to which way might work better.


Occasionally, there's even reason to double-clutch an upshift in a fully-synchronized transmission. Think really cold weather when the gear oil is thick enough to slow down the countershaft faster than you can get the next higher gear engaged or you don't run the lower gear up quite far enough (mostly this will happen with the 1-2 upshift). Again, this is a matter of being kind to the mechanical bits.



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Old 07-26-2012, 05:04 PM   #18
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Are there any other alternatives besides heel toeing into 2nd going into turns? Anybody?
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