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Old 07-25-2012, 10:56 AM   #1
jay@redline-motorsports
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Fuel Injector data and how important it is......

Well this weekend Howard had the opportunity to go up to detroit and meet with his good friend greg banish to see whats really involved in collecting the all important "injector data" we so often talk about online. Over his career as a calibrator he has had
his share of issues with poor quality injectors, lack of data and bad data. Now that he has a good understanding of how critical it is AND the effect it has on drivability and overall performance hes not looking back.

We flowed a few different sets of injectors that are currently being marketed and its quite concerning to say the least. Many people think that as long as they have the size of the injector they are all set...wrong answer! Some of the things that are critical are;

Injectors stability and predictabilty at pulse widths below 4.00 ms
Overall injector flow rate (static flow)
Consistency between sets of injectors
Proper spray pattern

The above items noted above where all observed this weekend. We also ran some stock unmodifed sets to compare to and observed the effects of "drilled" injectors, especially when not done correctly.

The tests performed where done using the SAE J1832 test methods which is the test method that all injectors in the OEM world are tested by. Its a very specific test which includes using a certain fluid as well as warming up the injectors for so many cycles before testing.

Its a decathalon of testing! He was quite surprised to see how some of the injectors are completely uncontrollable at low pulse widths. This now confirms why a few cars we tried certain drilled injectors on where very hard to get good fueling control. According to SAE the injectors must be within 3%...the injectors we tested where closer to 12% off.

we am not at liberty to discuss which injectors we tested but if your injector supplier doesn't test with the SAE standard and you claim to be good calibrator your wrong...



Those who aren't familiar with Greg here's he runs calibrated success and has a long history with oem calibration

http://www.calibratedsuccess.com/AboutUs.htm

Those who haven't read this write up that greg had posted give it a read and you will have a better idea of what we experienced during our tests

http://www.calibratedsuccess.com/Ass...ingDrilled.pdf
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Old 07-25-2012, 11:02 AM   #2
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So does that mean hp gain?
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Old 07-25-2012, 11:06 AM   #3
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what it means it a better running smoother running engine overall, there's more to the tune then WOT, driveability is key and this is where these things come into play.
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Old 07-25-2012, 11:14 AM   #4
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So you're going to be running smoother and that'll help the performance. I've been hearing alot about this from a lot of my friends telling me to get them and how they could make my car better, faster, and what not but I never really figured out what they are.
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Old 07-25-2012, 11:32 AM   #5
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great job, knowledge and research make a world of difference...
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Old 07-25-2012, 09:46 PM   #6
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This research would be a lot more helpfull if the injectors were identified. I realize the legal problems this may cause, but if consumer reports can point out lemons in other products, surely we desreve to know which injectors are sub-par. If a company claims they are supplying a matched injector set with flow rates and spray patterns that are excellent, there should be no reason not to call them out on it if they don't! I bought the injectors for my build my tuner and shop owner suggested (I bought my parts and tune from the same shop) based on their experience, but feel a little uneasy after seeing your video....I hope mine were from one of the good companies!
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Old 07-25-2012, 10:37 PM   #7
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its not that hard to figure out. Go with an injector company that will supply all the data required for tuning. There aren't that many. Personally, once I maxed out what GM could offer, Injector Dynamics was the obvious choice if you care about drivability and ease of tuning.
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Old 07-26-2012, 07:52 AM   #8
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Quote:
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its not that hard to figure out. Go with an injector company that will supply all the data required for tuning. There aren't that many. Personally, once I maxed out what GM could offer, Injector Dynamics was the obvious choice if you care about driveability and ease of tuning.
Exactly there are very few that have all the data needed to do this correctly. but when all the correct data is input into the ecm the ease of tuning and driveability and little bugs that haunt alot of people disappear.

As far as our testing goes we put alot of reasearch and time into our development to give our customer some of the best calibration work out there.
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Old 07-26-2012, 07:59 AM   #9
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Jay, excellent info. This is exactly why we run each and every set of injectors through our injector flow bench here at the shop - ESPECIALLY the re-drilled ones.

We don't even sell them actually (re-drilled).
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Old 07-26-2012, 10:17 AM   #10
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Jay, excellent info. This is exactly why we run each and every set of injectors through our injector flow bench here at the shop - ESPECIALLY the re-drilled ones.

We don't even sell them actually (re-drilled).
Erik,

I think your missing the point of this. "Flowing" which is used very loosely around here, is not just running a set on a bench and see what the static flow rate is....thats just being able to match sets so all eight cylinders are the same....another issue in itself with aftermarket and OEM injectors.

We are talking about the specific characteristics of the injector as its effected by voltage, pressure changes and just the raw injector design.

Without getting into a whole lesson, which I'll save for Gregs classes the BIG problem with this whole injector topic is what goes on below 4.00 ms of time. This is where the engine idles, cruises and transitions most of the time.....or what we also call "drivability"....something most of our customers enjoy combined with strong power output.

Its good you guys are able to match sets and clean them but this is a much deeper process with huge positive effects when understood.

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Old 07-26-2012, 11:07 AM   #11
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So the injector info is entered for each injector during the tune process? I'm assuming the ID injectors have a serial number or some other way of identifying them and their corresponding data? I had no idea the gm ECM was that advanced. I work on Mercedes-Benz vehicles for a living, and only our diesel and direct injected gasoline motors need this kind of injector info (they have codes on each injector that have to be programmed into ECM when replaced). Who is Greg, and where are his classes? I could learn a lot from you guys!
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Old 07-26-2012, 12:41 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mercedestech View Post
So the injector info is entered for each injector during the tune process? I'm assuming the ID injectors have a serial number or some other way of identifying them and their corresponding data? I had no idea the gm ECM was that advanced. I work on Mercedes-Benz vehicles for a living, and only our diesel and direct injected gasoline motors need this kind of injector info (they have codes on each injector that have to be programmed into ECM when replaced). Who is Greg, and where are his classes? I could learn a lot from you guys!

This is what comes out of injector characterizing.....and this isn't even half of whats in an OEM controller...

These tables are specific to each manufactures injectors..
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Old 07-26-2012, 01:01 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by jay@redline-motorsports View Post
what it means it a better running smoother running engine overall, there's more to the tune then WOT, driveability is key and this is where these things come into play.
I am very interested in the info here. I"m currently having an ongoing issue and can't find the problem anywhere. I'm not a tuner but I'm not new to how these engines work be any means. I can doagnose and fix problems and this one I apparently have to have a tuner look at but having had two tuners do the car and still end up with the same issues I wonder if it's a physical problem unseen. Like injectors.

I have the stock TVS2300 Magnuson injectors so I'm not too worried but I do wonder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mercedestech View Post
This research would be a lot more helpfull if the injectors were identified. I realize the legal problems this may cause, but if consumer reports can point out lemons in other products, surely we desreve to know which injectors are sub-par. If a company claims they are supplying a matched injector set with flow rates and spray patterns that are excellent, there should be no reason not to call them out on it if they don't! I bought the injectors for my build my tuner and shop owner suggested (I bought my parts and tune from the same shop) based on their experience, but feel a little uneasy after seeing your video....I hope mine were from one of the good companies!


This is kind of like the news teaser.......

"Cyanide found in food at local grocery store. Tune in tomorrow for details."

Irritating that we can't get the info we need in cases like this.
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Old 07-26-2012, 06:54 PM   #14
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Going to Amazon right now...I love to learn, and thank you for all of your information in this thread!

I'm definitely no tuner, and Mercedes-Benz isnt about to explain to it's techs about this subject in depth or give explinations on the coding in their control units (they use siemens and bosch both). They just tell us to make sure we program the serial number of each injector into the M.E. when replacing them, but never really told us why other than the M.E. needs that information to properly control the injector. They did mention the driveability issues associated with skipping this step however.

I just had no idea the Camaro's ECM was so similar. Like I siad, thanks for the info and looks like I have a lot of reading on this subject ahead of me!
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Old 07-26-2012, 08:29 PM   #15
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Great Thread, Can't Say enough about Greg Banish and his Tuning Classes and DVDs.

Injector Dynamics is my First choice for anything larger than ZR-1 injectors.

Ted.
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Old 07-26-2012, 09:50 PM   #16
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Jay great information
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Old 07-26-2012, 10:57 PM   #17
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Great Thread, Can't Say enough about Greg Banish and his Tuning Classes and DVDs.

Injector Dynamics is my First choice for anything larger than ZR-1 injectors.

Ted.
What size are ZR1 injectors? 52#?

Also, where can I get a tune on a load bearing dynamometer? Seems nobody can really ever tune for anything but WOT.
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Old 07-26-2012, 11:46 PM   #18
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What size are ZR1 injectors? 52#?

Also, where can I get a tune on a load bearing dynamometer? Seems nobody can really ever tune for anything but WOT.
Yes the ZR1 injectors are 52 lb/hr at 58 psig (4 bar)
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Old 07-26-2012, 11:49 PM   #19
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Want to know how much is behind injector data characterizing?????

Closing Time (CT)
Inductance (L)
Coil Resistance (R)
Dynamic Flow (Qd)
Dynamic Flow Calculated (Qdc)
Dynamic Flow Rate (Q)
Dynamic Flow Temperature Shift (Qtd)
Dynamic Flow Vacuum Shift (Qvd)
Dynamic Minimum Operating Voltage (DMOV)
Dynamic Set Point (PWxx)
Dynamic Set Point Flow (Qsp)
External Leakage
Flow-Offset (Y)
Insulation Resistance (IR)
Linear Flow Range (LFR)
Linearity Deviation (LD)
Maximum Overload Voltage
Opening Time (OT)
Operating Voltage Range
Period (P)
Pulse Width (PW)
Pressure Drop Ratio (PDR)
Repeatability
Slope (m)
Slope Approximated (ma)
Spray Pattern
Stability (S)
Static Drop-Out Current (I/S-OFF)
Static Flow Rate (Qs)
Static Minimum Operating Voltage (SMOV)
Static Pull-In Current (I/S-ON)
Time-Offset (X)
Working Flow Range (WFR)

Get with the program or be left behind!

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Old 08-01-2012, 09:48 AM   #20
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Jay great information
Manny, this is a great read for you to understand why using those FAST injectors without data should not be used and why I did not want to tune the car that way
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Old 08-01-2012, 02:17 PM   #21
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Totally I agree. I have read all of Banish's books and have his DVDs, I'd go to his class if he had a local one ever (don't think there is too much demand in SATX...).

I only use flow matched factory injectors and if it is big power, Injector Dynamics.

Of course, 99% of what I tune doesn't even need an injector upgrade......
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Old 08-05-2012, 03:43 PM   #22
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Jay have my IDC850's come in yet?
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Old 08-06-2012, 08:59 AM   #23
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We refuse to tune without a set of good known injectors that have the date to back them up. Amazing how much better a tune can be with the correct information in your tune. These types of things are what seperates good tuners that tune with the fundamentals of tuning or te ones that tune with bandaids all over the place.

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Old 08-06-2012, 02:01 PM   #24
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Jay have my IDC850's come in yet?
sure have, come by when you get a chance ill have them here waiting for you.
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