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Old 07-25-2012, 10:13 PM   #1
2010camarolt

 
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noob sub and amp question

so im looking into getting a sub. i dont want a lot of bass but more then factory. im looking at http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-TS-SWX.../dp/B004HW6F9M. i dont want it to take up much room so this should fit in the side of my trunk. It has a lot of good reviews but i need an amp. What amp should i get to power this sub?

and what does the 800 watts peak and RMS: 200 watts mean when i look for an amp? im a noob when it comes to audio system. i also have the non ba system so whats the best way to install it


thanks for the help
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Old 07-25-2012, 11:10 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by 2010camarolt View Post
so im looking into getting a sub. i dont want a lot of bass but more then factory. im looking at http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-TS-SWX.../dp/B004HW6F9M. i dont want it to take up much room so this should fit in the side of my trunk. It has a lot of good reviews but i need an amp. What amp should i get to power this sub?

and what does the 800 watts peak and RMS: 200 watts mean when i look for an amp? im a noob when it comes to audio system. i also have the non ba system so whats the best way to install it


thanks for the help
The 200W RMS means you should be looking for a 200W amp. Like this one.

http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-GM-D75...ref=pd_sim_e_3
That should be a near perfect match for that sub.

The 800W peak means that the amp can handle up to 800W for a very short period of time.
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Old 07-26-2012, 01:20 AM   #3
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RMS stands for Root Mean Squared. It is a measurment of how much power an amp or speaker can operate at continuously and eficiently. You typically want to match the RMS of the amp to that of the speakers. Most go with a little more power on the amp than what the speakers are rated.

I have a couple of those 10" Pioneer shallow mount subs in a box i'm not using now. I was pushing the pair of them with an amp upwards of 1000 watts RMS for over 4 years and they are still in good shape.

OH ya, like darkrider said, Peak is indeed how much an amp can produce for short periods or bursts and how much a speaker can handle for a short period. If you stay close to RMS from amp to speaker you should be fine.

BTW, if the speaker or amp is not certified as CEA 2006 compliant and it makes big power claims for a low price, don't believe it. Most good name brands are compliant.
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Old 07-26-2012, 02:11 AM   #4
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Just get a Bazooka Amplified Tube if you are trying to keep space down.
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Old 07-26-2012, 08:29 AM   #5
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okay now things make a little more sense. How do i know if the amp is certified


also whats the difference between a mono amp,a 2 channel amp and a class d amp?
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Old 07-26-2012, 09:48 AM   #6
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Amplifiers work on for Min. and Max. frequency RMS is average of square root of all the frequency within in that range. Totally agree with CWIweldace you woofer's power rating must be a bit more than speakers.
Not frequency. Amplitude. BIG difference.


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okay now things make a little more sense. How do i know if the amp is certified


also whats the difference between a mono amp,a 2 channel amp and a class d amp?
A mono amp would be what you would use for a sub, since you don't want stereo output from it in the first place. It will typically perform better than a regular system amp for your sub.

2 channel just means stereo. That's the kind of amp to use to drive your other speakers. Your car already has one of these but it could be upgraded, but I wouldn't recommend that unless you were also upgrading your speakers.

Class D type amps are the most efficient kind of amp. You probably want to go for what is often termed "Class D monoblock" for your sub(s), as it's a high efficiency mono amp that will supply the best power and signal to your sub(s).

It's generally best to buy an amp with 15-30% more power capabilities than your subs will ever require. This means finding out the peak power from the amp and subs. This way, the amp will always be able to supply enough power to the subs at all times without overdriving the amp, which will cause it to overheat and possibly take damage.

By that same token, turning up the gain on the amp has the effect of widening the difference between the peaks and valleys in the waveform, and if that becomes greater than the sub's ability to move, you can damage the subs by causing the driver to be either fully extended or fully retracted for fractions of a second, which is bad for it and is the cause for audible distortion as the sound wave clips and no audio is produced. Basically, if you turn it up too much, you can blow your sub. But the same thing can happen from an underpowered amp as well since you are overdriving the amp, and the sound will clip. Stay within the power range and you'll be fine.

Hope this helps. Sorry it's lengthy.
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Old 07-26-2012, 09:54 AM   #7
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okay now things make a little more sense. How do i know if the amp is certified
If the amp is CEA-2006 certified, it will usually say so on the box. You could also check the manufacturers website to see if it is certified - look for this stamp.



http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PU...ries/GM-D7500M


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also whats the difference between a mono amp,a 2 channel amp and a class d amp?
A mono amp usually takes left and right input signals and sums them into a single, amplified output. These are mostly used for subwoofers.

A 2-channel amp takes left and right input signals and creates 2 amplified outputs. These outputs can often be combined (bridged) to create a more powerful, summed output. A 2-channel is far more versatile than a mono amp.

"Class D" refers to how an amplifier makes its power. "Class D" is also often referred to as "Digital". Class D amps are almost always smaller in physical size than an equal power Class A/B amplifier. Some people prefer the sound quality of Class A/B amps to that of Class D. With the quality of today's digital media, the sound quality difference is negligible.
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Old 07-26-2012, 10:10 AM   #8
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It's generally best to buy an amp with 15-30% more power capabilities
so 15% to 30% more then 800 watts or 200 watts?

learning alot from this thread!
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Old 07-26-2012, 10:12 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by ForgedReality View Post
A mono amp would be what you would use for a sub, since you don't want stereo output from it in the first place. It will typically perform better than a regular system amp for your sub.

2 channel just means stereo. That's the kind of amp to use to drive your other speakers. Your car already has one of these but it could be upgraded, but I wouldn't recommend that unless you were also upgrading your speakers.

Class D type amps are the most efficient kind of amp. You probably want to go for what is often termed "Class D monoblock" for your sub(s), as it's a high efficiency mono amp that will supply the best power and signal to your sub(s).

It's generally best to buy an amp with 15-30% more power capabilities than your subs will ever require. This means finding out the peak power from the amp and subs. This way, the amp will always be able to supply enough power to the subs at all times without overdriving the amp, which will cause it to overheat and possibly take damage.

By that same token, turning up the gain on the amp has the effect of widening the difference between the peaks and valleys in the waveform, and if that becomes greater than the sub's ability to move, you can damage the subs by causing the driver to be either fully extended or fully retracted for fractions of a second, which is bad for it and is the cause for audible distortion as the sound wave clips and no audio is produced. Basically, if you turn it up too much, you can blow your sub. But the same thing can happen from an underpowered amp as well since you are overdriving the amp, and the sound will clip. Stay within the power range and you'll be fine.

Hope this helps. Sorry it's lengthy.
bah - beat me to it while I was typing mine up.....

I will say this though - I have never in my roughly 20 years of "messing with" car audio seen a speaker blown by underpowering. Usually, most people that aren't trying just to be heard, will turn it down once it starts to distort to a dangerous level. If you match amplifier RMS to speaker RMS, you will 99.9% of the time be perfectly fine. I have seen lots of blown speakers from over powering though.

All that said, it is possible to blow a speaker with an under powered amp. Clipped signals kill speakers, and often amps as well. The difference is that with an overpowering amp, you'll just blow through speakers quicker.
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Old 07-26-2012, 10:29 AM   #10
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so 15% to 30% more then 800 watts or 200 watts?

learning alot from this thread!
I would say either RMS-to-RMS, or peak-to-peak. My two 12" subs are 500 watt RMS at 2 ohms, and they're wired in parallel, so they both receive the same power level. My amp drives 900 watts @ 2 ohms x 1 chan. It's a 1200 watt amp and the subs have a peak of 1000 watts. It's pretty closely matched up, but also be aware that peak performance measures aren't always as accurate as RMS, so it's probably better to compare RMS values.

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bah - beat me to it while I was typing mine up.....

I will say this though - I have never in my roughly 20 years of "messing with" car audio seen a speaker blown by underpowering. Usually, most people that aren't trying just to be heard, will turn it down once it starts to distort to a dangerous level. If you match amplifier RMS to speaker RMS, you will 99.9% of the time be perfectly fine. I have seen lots of blown speakers from over powering though.

All that said, it is possible to blow a speaker with an under powered amp. Clipped signals kill speakers, and often amps as well. The difference is that with an overpowering amp, you'll just blow through speakers quicker.
All true. And like I said, if you're running higher powered subs near the upper end of your amp's capabilities, you can burn it up too. Pay attention to how warm your amp gets after 30 minutes to an hour of driving it hard, and you'll have a good idea how much you're stressing your amp. I can pump mine all day long and the amp stays ice cold. That's ideal.


Oh and if you have more than one sub, it's usually best to wire them in parallel as opposed to series. Series compounds numbers, particularly load impedence. So in series, if you have your subs wired at 2 ohms, it will be 4 ohms impedance across the circuit, and the speakers will be half as loud.

You'll get higher volumes with parallel wiring, but in this scenario, impedance DROPS. It's a complex discussion, but basically, you want to pay attention to what ohms your amp and speakers are capable of because that will help determine how you want to wire them for how you want it to sound, without breaking something.
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Old 07-26-2012, 10:38 AM   #11
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I would say either RMS-to-RMS, or peak-to-peak. My two 12" subs are 500 watt RMS at 2 ohms, and they're wired in parallel, so they both receive the same power level. My amp drives 900 watts @ 2 ohms x 1 chan. It's a 1200 watt amp and the subs have a peak of 1000 watts. It's pretty closely matched up, but also be aware that peak performance measures aren't always as accurate as RMS, so it's probably better to compare RMS values.
So you're sending 450W to each sub?
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Old 07-26-2012, 10:45 AM   #12
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so if i got a 250 watt amp id be good?
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Old 07-26-2012, 10:57 AM   #13
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so if i got a 250 watt amp id be good?
It honestly depends on the amp and who made it. Some companies (like Rockford Fosgate) are notorious for under rating their amplifiers. They have been known to call an amp a 200W amp and the amp actually puts out 500+ Watts.

Other companies have called an amp a 1000W amp, and it only outputs 200W.

This is so easy, isn't it? :bangdesk:

Just post up which amp you're looking at - it's probably fine, but I never rule out Murphy.
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Old 07-26-2012, 10:59 AM   #14
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So you're sending 450W to each sub?
About that. I can turn everything up no problems, no clipping or anything. The actual gain on the amp doesn't get set above about 30% though, and that's about right for matching the volume control on the head unit to the output from the subs, when I have my remote knob turned all the way up. If I replaced the rest of the system (head unit, factory amp, all factory speakers), I bet I could turn the amp gain up more, but it's plenty loud right now, and if you listen for an hour with the head unit at 37, you'll have a constant background hum in your ears until the next morning. XD I love it.

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so if i got a 250 watt amp id be good?
Seems a bit weak to me, but then that's a pretty small subwoofer. Just make sure that's the RMS value on the amp. Amps are often advertised using their peak levels to make them sound better on paper. Speakers tend to use the RMS value, from what I've seen. A little digging into the specs should get at what you need. (EDIT - Also what darkrider said. )

I don't mean to change your mind or anything, but are you sure that's the sub you wanna go with? In a car this large, putting that thing in the trunk, you might not hardly notice it. I don't really know though, but that enclosure is pretty small, and it looks like it's meant to be in tight spaces. I have one of similar size in my truck, and I can't hear it from outside the vehicle, but it's the only thing that would fit. It's wedged right behind my seat, and I can feel it (nice massage ), and it rounds out the bottom end, but I doubt it would thump very noticeably in my Camaro, since the cabin is so much larger. My truck is a regular cab Dakota Sport. Small space, so the small sub works better there.
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Old 07-26-2012, 11:12 AM   #15
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I don't mean to change your mind or anything, but are you sure that's the sub you wanna go with? In a car this large, putting that thing in the trunk, you might not hardly notice it. I don't really know though, but that enclosure is pretty small, and it looks like it's meant to be in tight spaces. I have one of similar size in my truck, and I can't hear it from outside the vehicle, but it's the only thing that would fit. It's wedged right behind my seat, and I can feel it (nice massage ), and it rounds out the bottom end, but I doubt it would thump very noticeably in my Camaro, since the cabin is so much larger. My truck is a regular cab Dakota Sport. Small space, so the small sub works better there
im open to other sub options. i really want the stealth box from subthump but i cant justifly spending 165 on it +a sub + an amp + install. I dont want a really loud system. im okay with the factory system i dont turn the head unit above 20 and thats when im on the highway with the windows down. im looking for a little more thump without giving myself a headache. my friend has the 12in version of the one i posted above and it sounds pretty good in his saab. the 10in is in a smaller box and should fit along the side of my trunk not taking my that much space.my car is my dd so i dont want to lose the access through the backseat just incase.

if anyone has a better sub amp combo im all ears
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Old 07-26-2012, 01:15 PM   #16
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im open to other sub options. i really want the stealth box from subthump but i cant justifly spending 165 on it +a sub + an amp + install. I dont want a really loud system. im okay with the factory system i dont turn the head unit above 20 and thats when im on the highway with the windows down. im looking for a little more thump without giving myself a headache. my friend has the 12in version of the one i posted above and it sounds pretty good in his saab. the 10in is in a smaller box and should fit along the side of my trunk not taking my that much space.my car is my dd so i dont want to lose the access through the backseat just incase.

if anyone has a better sub amp combo im all ears
I'll just make 2 comments about this. The choice is ultimately yours

1. The SubThump boxes (especially the stealth boxes) are worth the price. They fit perfectly and snugly. They are carpeted to match the trunk. They are built very, very well. They are really a bargain at $165.

2. If you go with a larger sub and amp, you can always turn it down to match your listening preference. If you buy an amp and sub that is too small, you can only turn it up to a certain point before it can't get any louder. If it doesn't suit your desire at it's max, you have nowhere to go.

Good luck!
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Old 07-26-2012, 02:58 PM   #17
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I must echo darkrider's sentiments toward Subthump's products. Awesome, awesome stuff.

I'm telling you, I love my dual 12" JL's in a Subthump box. I have the full size one because I have no real need to get to the trunk through the rear seat, and the box really doesn't take up much of the trunk. Maybe 30%, and it's tucked way up toward the front, up against the back of the rear seat. My setup is pretty powerful, but when I don't want it to be, it tames right up, so there's the flexibility there for when "I dont want a really loud system," but it can thump really hard if I want to drown out the sound of haters.
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Old 07-26-2012, 03:01 PM   #18
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okay so if i go with the subthump box now i need to find a sub by itself. time to look again!
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Old 07-26-2012, 03:26 PM   #19
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If you want a descent cheap sub then try this one out:

http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-TS-W25...3334188&sr=1-7

I am using it in my Convertible in the factory location and it sounds pretty damn good to me. I am pushing it with 1 channel of a 5 channel amp. I have it wired for 2 ohm so it is getting 350w RMS. It does not take a lot of power to get some thump out of it. I have the gain on my amp set pretty low. Bass boost is only at the middle setting too.
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Old 07-26-2012, 03:42 PM   #20
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okayy seems pretty good. what about a good 12inch sub
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Old 07-26-2012, 03:46 PM   #21
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If you want a descent cheap sub then try this one out:

http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-TS-W25...3334188&sr=1-7

I am using it in my Convertible in the factory location and it sounds pretty damn good to me. I am pushing it with 1 channel of a 5 channel amp. I have it wired for 2 ohm so it is getting 350w RMS. It does not take a lot of power to get some thump out of it. I have the gain on my amp set pretty low. Bass boost is only at the middle setting too.
Pioneer makes pretty solid stuff.

As cheap as the 12's are, why not just go with the 12" Pioneer?

http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-TS-W30...ref=pd_sim_e_3

Pair it up to a little amp like this one and you should be set.

http://www.amazon.com/MBQUART-FX1-40...335183&sr=1-10

Remember, you can always turn it down
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Old 07-26-2012, 06:55 PM   #22
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ahh decisions decision i think im going to go with this box $110 shipped http://shop.doubledmods.com/2010-201...versidebox.htm
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Old 07-26-2012, 10:35 PM   #23
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That looks pretty nice. I can only vouch for SubThump boxes as that is what I have. Be sure to post your thoughts on the box once you get it in.
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Old 07-27-2012, 01:22 AM   #24
ForgedReality
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Pay attention to the specs on whatever box you get for air volume. Try to get it closely matched to a subwoofer for optimum performance. That one says 1.2 cu. ft., so you want a sub that has a suggested box volume close to that.

JL makes some of the best subs but this is probably more than you're willing to spend:
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...-12W3v3-2.html

That one likes 1.25cu.ft. so it would be a good match. I have two of those in my car and I couldn't be happier.
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Old 07-27-2012, 09:33 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForgedReality View Post
Pay attention to the specs on whatever box you get for air volume. Try to get it closely matched to a subwoofer for optimum performance. That one says 1.2 cu. ft., so you want a sub that has a suggested box volume close to that.

JL makes some of the best subs but this is probably more than you're willing to spend:
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...-12W3v3-2.html

That one likes 1.25cu.ft. so it would be a good match. I have two of those in my car and I couldn't be happier.

yea a little bit more then i wanted to spend. and the subthump box and the doubledmod box hav the same 1.2 cu. ft.


if do this i think im going to go with this sub
http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-TS-W30...ref=pd_sim_e_3
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Last edited by 2010camarolt; 07-27-2012 at 09:59 AM.
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