Suspension ideas for stock ss for Road America

[carrs_crew]

Can I use just the XP8-10 with the stock rotors for the first event or do I have to upgrade the rotors as well?

[FIGRRL]

You can... But not the best idea. Go to Maryland speed, spend the 500 bucks and get the DBA4000 slotted rotors. Leave stock rotors to the street.. And FYI HPS stands for High Performance STREET. They are NOT a track pad, Road America eats brakes. Spend your money on them and leave the suspension for later.

[carrs_crew]

Ok thanks, so if I go with the rotors, pads, lines and fluid. Is there a suspension upgrades I should tackle next?

[PfadtRacing]

I think your budget is really close to our Stage3 Camaro package which would make the car a real blast to drive on track, but keep in mind that you really do want to budget for brakes just like everyone has mentioned above. To be honest in our experience there aren't any pads that are great for both street AND aggressive track use. Given that this may be one of your first track experiences a set of HP+ or Carbotechs may be enough.

Here is what I would recommend for the suspension:

Sport Sways, Solid Subframe Mounts, Rear Tie Rod package. This is RIGHT at the top of the budget, but is a fantastic foundation for future mods. Also keep in mind that once you've got the subframe dropped for the subframe mounts installing the Rear Tie Rods and Trailing arms is an absolute snap. After a few track days you're probably going to want a little more spring rate to go along with braking harder and later as you gain more experience, and at that point the coilovers with their increased spring rates and adjustable dampers would be a great upgrade.

If you were doing more drag racing I think the diff mounts would be ok... but for your application not aboslutely necessary. You will like the attitude of the car MUCH more with the money reallocated to subframe mounts rather than securing the diff.

Either way go out and make sure you have yourself a great time. We definitely have all of the parts needed to get your car performing it's best when you're ready.

Keep in mind that we know a thing or two about the Camaro suspension. We are the Suspension Engineering support team behind the Bondurant World Challenge effort. The current World Challenge GTS leader Andy Lee is running all of our suspension components, including Camaro double adjustable coilovers.

[TBone]

Originally Posted by FIGRRL

Do not use HPS pads on RA.

If you like your car and want it in one piece do NOT put HPS pads on your car and go to road America. Ask T-Bone.

Do not cheap out on brakes unless you want a new front end...or worse.

This is what HPS pads look like after ONE weekend session at RA. Notice how thin the pads are on the two outside ones.



I can't stress this enough, DO NOT USE HPS PADS AT RA!! I know this from experience. If you are lucky your insurance will cover your new front end. Most won't and you will be out of pocket for your repairs. Invest in your brakes!!

I learned this the hard way and we 3 vowed to learn from my experience and to try to not let it happen to anyone else. PLEASE heed our warnings. RA EATS BRAKES for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

If you are going to really get into this Jordan has a good deal on the new DBA 4000 rotors but they are a little more expensive. Call for better pricing.
http://www.jdpmotorsports.com/manufa...ss-42604slrset

Figrrl and HW/I differ on the bushings idea. HW and I love ours but Figrrl does not have them. We think they are a good idea. BMR has a full set you could get for $500ish.

Sways we all agree on but there again we all did something different. HW and I did PFadt and Figrrl did Pedders. All of us upgraded our end links.

We all have coilovers but again went different routes. HW/I did Pedders XA and Fgrrl did KW. Both HW and I have broken coilovers but Pedders was very good about getting us replacements through warranty.

All of us have toe links, sway bars and upgraded axles. We are all much farther down the mod road.

Upgrade as your budget allows but don't scrimp on your parts. They will only let you down in the long run and you will end up buying them twice.

T.

(I hope I got the parts y'all have correct. If not sorry, my bad)

[HumanWiki]

My suspension/braking configuration:

PFADT:
2010 + Camaro Solid Subframe Bushings - 1410106
2010 + Camaro Rear Trailing Arm - 1410118
2010 + Camaro Sport Sway Bars - 1410100

Pedders:
Camaro Front Radius Rod bush - EP6579
GM Zeta Steering Rack mount - EP2112
Zeta HD Differential mount - EP1167HD
GM Control Arm lower inner - EP7264
Camaro Rear Upper Control Arm inner - EP7322
Zeta Rear Control Arm/Toe Link - EP7323
Camaro Xa Extreme Coilover - 160086
RLCA Endlink Brackets - RLCA
Camaro Front End link - 423201010
Camaro Rear Endlink - 42601010

Braking:
DBA4000 Front/Rear Rotors
Carbotech XP10F/XP8R (Road America only -- OE pads now)
MTI Stainless Steel Lines (Red)
Motul RBF600



Once you get everything installed, set up how you like it and adjust to it... You'll find the car is just crazy and certainly capable of giving you the desire to push it to yours or its limits..

That's why many of us are pushing the brakes, brakes, brakes things.. I'm sure there are plenty of tracks in the US that you can go OE on and be just fine.. RA is a very fast, technical and long track with a lot of elevation change -- as you saw in your touring.. Now, once you actually get aggressive with the track, it will get aggressive right back at you. We just want you to have adequate systems in place so you can get out on the track and truly enjoy it and not be bored around the laps knowing you're restricted.. that's no fun... Once you get out there and start trying to improve, you'll find the OE limits quickly.

My first day, I stupidly left the OE fluid in place with all the above and 560 tire in a stick.. The first two sessions were fine because I was learning.. By session three I had boiled the fluid and lost pedal.. I could feel it coming on and gracefully exited the track.

Day 2, I was dealing with a light clutch (non-split brake/clutch w/ some OE fluid still in it) but my braking was much better and I could push even harder... Make no mistake though, I was still able to get the car to start pushing back on me in the places it was being over driven.. I exited the track after session 3 again because I didn't want to over do it and ruin my first road course outing.

Just make sure that you know what you and your car are capable of and have a good time... Done right, it's a very addicting experience.. Coming from someone that has a long history of drag racing, I can tell you it's much more fun when you're running the track full out passing people, watching people pass... It's like a more aggressive highway with lots of twists, turns and no cops!

(I'm still a Road Course amateur, so I defer to the people that do this for a living.. I'm just providing my personal experiences and what I saw while there along with the feed back I got in my car) -- The suspension mfgs are very capable of providing you with all the details you need.

Also, I saw several OE cars go 4 wheels off / spin out with much less power than our cars.. Most of them lost it at the carousel IIRC.

[Bruce@raymondsperformance]

We have done a few camaro's over the years for road racing.Here is our shop car last week We would be happy to help.

[FIGRRL]

The three of us went different routes.
Wiki did everything but the split & fluid.
T did everything that Wiki did but went OE rotors and HPS pads, and split the clutch off
I did KW coilovers, GM ZL1 front sway, Pfadt drag rear sway & the full brake set up & we all had the same alignment.
We all have axles, toe links, & trailing arms.
I was the only one of the three that weekend that had NO problems. No brake, clutch, other issues.

Spend your money on the brakes first. They can & will not only save your car, but possibly your life. The rest will come.

[FIGRRL]

BTW what HPDE are you doing at RA?

[carrs_crew]

When I get home I will check the flyer bit it is sometime in October. I believe for the march of dimes

[JusticePete]

You have a lot of great advice flowing in your thread.

Brake Pads for RA: You need a pad that can take a lot of heat. Look for a pad that can take 1600 to 2000 degrees.

Suspension: Foundation, foundation and foundation.

1. Sub-frame and radius bushes
2. RA specific Steel Jacketed bushes at both ends of the OEM arm. There is no reason to replace it.
3. Steel jacketed toe link bushes or opt for the ZL1 OEM toe links.
4. Alignment is critical. We want a road course ready alignment
5. Brake fluid. There is only one option SRF. A complete change over is required and that means a TECH II bleed that cycles the ABS pump.
6. High Temp appropriate brake pads for a very fast RA HPDE

Coilovers and bars would be great, but let's get the essentials done. Bruce Raymond started you down the right road. Give Bruce a call or stop by the Autocross to see us at C5FEST III. We'll take the time to listen to what you want and make sure you get what you need from us.

This video shows how ridiculously stable the 5th Gen suspension is when Pedderised. Danny Popp is driving the wheels off the Lingenfelter L/28. Watch the tire side wall shift under load. Watch for the the red and white turtle backs passing under the tire. Nothing upsets the suspension.



At the last OPTIMA Qualifying event Pedders equipped 5th Gens took 1st and 3rd. In the last three events we have finished 1st twice, 2nd once and 3rd once. We have not seen another 5th Gen or any other late model Muscle Car even come close.

Danny Popp at Gingerman.



TJ Bain and Raymond's Performance Camaro at the MSD Challenge.



Mark Hupfer at Putnum Park in the Raymond's Performance Camaro. Watch him pass everything on the track.



There are a lot of companies that go to market as racing companies. Pedders does NOT make race parts. Pedders makes street parts that deliver a high quality rides and great driving experience every time you turn the key. Funny thing is our street parts seem to be right at home on the track. This short video will explain why.



How stable can a Pedders steel jacketed be in the knuckle of your 5th Gen?



OEM Rubber



Pedders Urethane Bush



Pedders Steel Jacketed -- Measuring on the thin edge of urethane allows it to flex and results in a low reading. With the ferule in place it is 85 durometer urethane.




We show you how to install our products via DIY videos.



I am so confident that you'll be thrilled with your Pedders parts I'll see to it personally your money is refunded if you don't like them.

[carrs_crew]

Has anyone tried an ebc yellow, blue,or orange pad before?

[JOHNSONROD]

i melted a set of Hawk HPS pads in two days at VIR. (similar to RA, VIR is a long track with hi speeds and hard braking). brakes are needed more than anything else if you want to track at track days even.
on the suspension, i have the PFADT kit that comes with springs and a rear sway bar. its like 600 bucks i think and my car turns great. i have a notune vararam and loudmouth exhaust. i was out there passing corvettes with a street car that still has its warranty. i was seeing speeds toward 135 on the rear straight.
you have plenty of car to learn with right now but you will need brakes. everything else is a want butbrakes are an absolute need.

[JusticePete]

Originally Posted by carrs_crew

Has anyone tried an ebc yellow, blue,or orange pad before?

Select your road course brake pads by heat range. a 5TH gen hits the track at Two Tons. That is a lot of mass to haul down at a road course and creates a lot of heat. Look for a pad rated to no less than 1,400 degrees. We routinely see temps much higher with the LPE L/28 and the Raymond's Performance Camaro. If the pad temperature operating range is not readily available from the MFG, find another company.

[carrs_crew]

Thank you all for the real world advice. I have taken it heart and selected what I think will be the best for my beginning in track racing. Through Chase I purchased Pfadt sport sways, end links, rear arm package, and diffential bushings. Also from Chase, BMR full rear bushing kit, rear upper arm bushing kit, front suspension bushing kit, and Racing Brake stainless steel brake lines. From Maryland Speed I got DBA 4000 rotors and EBC yellow stuff brake pads. Also picked up some Motul RBF600 on Amazon. Now I need to find a shop who can make this all work. Any ideas around South Eastern Wisconsin or south of the wisconsin illinois border?

[HumanWiki]

Originally Posted by carrs_crew

Thank you all for the real world advice. I have taken it heart and selected what I think will be the best for my beginning in track racing. Through Chase I purchased Pfadt sport sways, end links, rear arm package, and diffential bushings. Also from Chase, BMR full rear bushing kit, rear upper arm bushing kit, front suspension bushing kit, and Racing Brake stainless steel brake lines. From Maryland Speed I got DBA 4000 rotors and EBC yellow stuff brake pads. Also picked up some Motul RBF600 on Amazon. Now I need to find a shop who can make this all work. Any ideas around South Eastern Wisconsin or south of the wisconsin illinois border?

Deerfield Tire in Deerfield, IL can do at least the suspension stuff.. You can call and talk to Garrett (owner).. He has a 5th Gen Camaro and does a ton for the C5G group. He actually did my tires/wheels and recent suspension repairs.

If no one in here gives you ones you're looking for. .You can head over to chicago5thgen.com and ask there.. I'm sure plenty there can give you input on installers local to you.

[carrs_crew]

Just called Deerfield Tire and talked to Garrett, he is going to get back to me with a full quote. Can't wait to get this all done!! There is a PDX at the Milwaukee Mile on the 16th.

[FIGRRL]

Don't grid behind me with EBC yellow stuff pads! They won't hold up at RA. They are made for cars upto 2200 LBS and LIGHT track use.

[carrs_crew]

I won't, going to try them at the milwaukee mile, maybe blackhawk farms.

[carrs_crew]

DBA 4000 out of stock for a great price, so I will need to find rotors and pads now. So no to yellow stuff, what about blue and grantelli slotted rotors?

[Doc]

My setup is very close to HumanWiki's. I differ from everyone on brakes. I'm running RacingBrake's 2-piece slotted rotors which aren't cheap but they do the job in spades. They are about 6 lbs lighter than the stock rotors which does wonders for acceleration and braking, and I'm running their ET500 pads which are a high performance street pad that can be used for occasional track duty. They have a couple grades of track specific pads that can be used on the street which I may switch to once these wear down.

http://www.racingbrake.com/Brake_Pad...1001-391-1.htm

Combined with stainless steel lines and SuperBlue racing fluid, I can't say enough good about these brakes. They run about 150-200 degrees cooler than other style rotors because of the way they're designed and the stopping power is ferocious. I ran all day at Auto Club Speedway which is a Nascar track that has an infield course and I never once had any brake fade or issues.

The infield course goes out onto the main oval for a ways before dropping you down into a hard and very small 90 degree left to take you into the infield. On the oval I was hitting 140+ and there's an infield straight where you can hit 100+ before a hard 90 degree right left so there's plenty of hard braking.

Apex Chase sells their rotors (and probably the pads too) and he's a forum vendor.

Everyone has given you a lot of really great advice in this thread which is great to see instead of just 1/4 mile talk.

Lower your tire pressures down to about 30 lbs before you go out on the track; you're going to pick up about 6-9 lbs of pressure when the tires heat up on the track. When you pull in off the track do NOT set your parking brake; just turn the engine off and leave it in gear.

Don't drive with your ego; use your head and don't overdrive your ability. There's no shame in pointing someone by to pass you if they're faster than you are. Go out there to learn and have fun. If you're like the rest of us, you'll find this to be your new addiction.

Here's a link to my project thread with everything I've done to build my road course car.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45165

There's bound to be some useful info in there that might help you with your build. In there on page 13 (http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...=45165&page=13) you'll see some videos of me on the Auto Club Speedway. You'll see the advantage my braking gave me over a car that was faster than I was on the straights. Like many here have already said, brakes brakes brakes! Great and reliable stopping power is worth every penny for the good stuff. Glad to see another Camaro road course owner/driver!

[Doc]

Originally Posted by HumanWiki

I run the Pedders Track-II and PFADT Solid Subs\Trailing Arms and Sways on mine and ran it over the weekend at Road America.

Holy crap does it does it handle. It was my first actual road course runs there, but between the three of us that went (all similarly modded).. we really surprised the run group with how well the Camaros handled.

I ran blown, one was cam/heads, the other is Intake/Exhaust/Tune.

I can tell you that you'll need more than just suspension if you want to run that track. Even with DBA 4000s, stainless steel lines, RBF 600 and Carbotech pads, I was heating them up really well as I was moving about the track.

With a good suspension setup, you'll notice you'll go flying around the track faster than you realize. I wasn't even pushing my car fully and that's a little scary.

That track looks like a blast and very fast. I wish we had tracks here with greenery all around like that. All our tracks here are either dirt, desert or just concrete.

[FIGRRL]

You need to trust me when I say carbotech XP8 & XP10's. They aren't that expensive. You can find them for about $200 an axle... It's a lot cheaper then a front clip.

If it was ANY OTHER TRACK but Road America or the Ring I wouldn't tell you that you & your car NEED carbotechs.

[carrs_crew]

could u point me in the right direction to find those pads, cant seem to order them on their site. where do u get them from?

[tadams72]

+1 on Pfadt. I have the Stage 3 setup on my 2011 SS and I run middle of the pack with a lot of sports cars on the tracks out west. I have nothing bad to say about this setup other than some of the stock bushings are a son of a !@#$% to remove. Bottom line, for what you get on the stage 3 you will be very happy with the results and leaves room to upgrade to coils when your wallet gets a little fatter down the road.