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Old 08-04-2012, 10:09 AM   #1
2012ZL1
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de-winging the ZL-1 heads

Hi Guys,
Has anyone done any porting/de-winging ports for better flow?
All the aftermarket heads that I know of do not have a wing, so does removing the wing cause a problem on these heads or is it ok for modding for more power?
Any experience/input appreciated. Pics are welcome too if ya got them!!
Mark
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Old 08-04-2012, 12:09 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2012ZL1 View Post
Hi Guys,
Has anyone done any porting/de-winging ports for better flow?
All the aftermarket heads that I know of do not have a wing, so does removing the wing cause a problem on these heads or is it ok for modding for more power?
Any experience/input appreciated. Pics are welcome too if ya got them!!
Mark
It is there for a reason.

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Old 08-04-2012, 12:16 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by ADM PERFORMANCE View Post
It is there for a reason.

And it seems next to impossible to find any good data on what that reason is, other than GM sales propaganda...

Better atomization of air/fuel? Ok, then why do I get 16MPG?
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Old 08-04-2012, 12:22 PM   #4
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There has been A lot of people port them out. Talk to Richard at west coast cylinder head he has them ported in stock and will tell you all you need to know about them.
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Old 08-04-2012, 12:25 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by 1st Gen Forever View Post
And it seems next to impossible to find any good data on what that reason is, other than GM sales propaganda...

Better atomization of air/fuel? Ok, then why do I get 16MPG?
LMAO

That is not the reason!
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Old 08-04-2012, 12:32 PM   #6
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Oh wait. I know the reason! It's there so you know when you're done with your port work. Once it's ground away, you're done!
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Old 08-04-2012, 06:35 PM   #7
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Why all the cloak and dagger Andy? Whats the reason then? speak up!
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Old 08-05-2012, 12:46 PM   #8
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(IMHO) The only reason I see to keep them is that a hemisphrical reverse dome piston needs help promoting full combustion as a result of inadequate quench.
There is no quench pad on the piston, so the wing helps create turbulence in a "non turbulent" environment for proper homogenization of the fuel/air mixture.
If this is the case it is not wise to remove it,and port flow must be improved in other areas. Minor smoothing or blending of the wing is probably o.k., but the leading edge should be kept prominent.
Replacement pistons with a quench pad could be used with wing removal.
The theoretical reason for non quench pistons in a supercharged environment is to remove detonation or hot spots which can happen on the piston.
In hyperutectic pistons, a hot spot is what causes failure from what I've read. Idealy, a hemisperical combustion chamber would be perfect, but since the engine design does not allow this, the next best thing is a reverse hemisphere piston.
Now the lack of turbulence from the piston needs help, and help is in the form of the wing. The wing keeps the "turbulence generator" out of the actual combustion chamber, which should lessen the chance of hot spots, and let the piston live, and allow more timing etc.

This effect only happens on after supercharger fuel injected engines, because in traditional carburated roots set ups the fuel comes in pre- blower so the blower does all the homoganization of the mixture.

In supercharged engines that fuel is added "after" the blower such as this, the fuel does not have the benefit of the blower mixing it into the air.
You need something in the arrangement to do the mixing of the two post injection site. That leaves the bowl area or the combustion chamber. For the reasons I mentioned above the chamber is out, so that leaves the bowl area.
Its not that it won't work without it it's just more efficient with the homoginizer in the mix.
Now the question remains that at more aggresive cam profiles and raised rpm ranges, will the wing be needed, and will it be a detrement to power once those variables are changed.

This is just my guess from what I've seen of the parts,and general experience with blowers, but if I'm wrong anyone can feel free to call me stupid. Heck call me stupid anyway I don't mind..lol
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Last edited by 2012ZL1; 08-05-2012 at 01:04 PM.
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Old 08-05-2012, 03:54 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2012ZL1 View Post
(IMHO) The only reason I see to keep them is that a hemisphrical reverse dome piston needs help promoting full combustion as a result of inadequate quench.
There is no quench pad on the piston, so the wing helps create turbulence in a "non turbulent" environment for proper homogenization of the fuel/air mixture.
If this is the case it is not wise to remove it,and port flow must be improved in other areas. Minor smoothing or blending of the wing is probably o.k., but the leading edge should be kept prominent.
Replacement pistons with a quench pad could be used with wing removal.
The theoretical reason for non quench pistons in a supercharged environment is to remove detonation or hot spots which can happen on the piston.
In hyperutectic pistons, a hot spot is what causes failure from what I've read. Idealy, a hemisperical combustion chamber would be perfect, but since the engine design does not allow this, the next best thing is a reverse hemisphere piston.
Now the lack of turbulence from the piston needs help, and help is in the form of the wing. The wing keeps the "turbulence generator" out of the actual combustion chamber, which should lessen the chance of hot spots, and let the piston live, and allow more timing etc.

This effect only happens on after supercharger fuel injected engines, because in traditional carburated roots set ups the fuel comes in pre- blower so the blower does all the homoganization of the mixture.

In supercharged engines that fuel is added "after" the blower such as this, the fuel does not have the benefit of the blower mixing it into the air.
You need something in the arrangement to do the mixing of the two post injection site. That leaves the bowl area or the combustion chamber. For the reasons I mentioned above the chamber is out, so that leaves the bowl area.
Its not that it won't work without it it's just more efficient with the homoginizer in the mix.
Now the question remains that at more aggresive cam profiles and raised rpm ranges, will the wing be needed, and will it be a detrement to power once those variables are changed.

This is just my guess from what I've seen of the parts,and general experience with blowers, but if I'm wrong anyone can feel free to call me stupid. Heck call me stupid anyway I don't mind..lol
Your not stupid.

In short :
You could have said it helps reduce detonation.
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Old 08-05-2012, 04:41 PM   #10
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That would have taken less words alright.
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Old 08-05-2012, 06:45 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2012ZL1 View Post
(IMHO) The only reason I see to keep them is that a hemisphrical reverse dome piston needs help promoting full combustion as a result of inadequate quench.
There is no quench pad on the piston, so the wing helps create turbulence in a "non turbulent" environment for proper homogenization of the fuel/air mixture.
If this is the case it is not wise to remove it,and port flow must be improved in other areas. Minor smoothing or blending of the wing is probably o.k., but the leading edge should be kept prominent.
Replacement pistons with a quench pad could be used with wing removal.
The theoretical reason for non quench pistons in a supercharged environment is to remove detonation or hot spots which can happen on the piston.
In hyperutectic pistons, a hot spot is what causes failure from what I've read. Idealy, a hemisperical combustion chamber would be perfect, but since the engine design does not allow this, the next best thing is a reverse hemisphere piston.
Now the lack of turbulence from the piston needs help, and help is in the form of the wing. The wing keeps the "turbulence generator" out of the actual combustion chamber, which should lessen the chance of hot spots, and let the piston live, and allow more timing etc.

This effect only happens on after supercharger fuel injected engines, because in traditional carburated roots set ups the fuel comes in pre- blower so the blower does all the homoganization of the mixture.

In supercharged engines that fuel is added "after" the blower such as this, the fuel does not have the benefit of the blower mixing it into the air.
You need something in the arrangement to do the mixing of the two post injection site. That leaves the bowl area or the combustion chamber. For the reasons I mentioned above the chamber is out, so that leaves the bowl area.
Its not that it won't work without it it's just more efficient with the homoginizer in the mix.
Now the question remains that at more aggresive cam profiles and raised rpm ranges, will the wing be needed, and will it be a detrement to power once those variables are changed.

This is just my guess from what I've seen of the parts,and general experience with blowers, but if I'm wrong anyone can feel free to call me stupid. Heck call me stupid anyway I don't mind..lol
Looks like you knew the elaborate answer to your own question all along
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Old 08-05-2012, 07:26 PM   #12
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That would have taken less words alright.
Hey 2012ZL1, now research how changing fuel injectors on an LSA might affect atomization with or without the wing...
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Old 08-05-2012, 07:46 PM   #13
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just like anything else from the factory, it's there for a reason. but that doesn't mean that reason is aligned with your goals. if your goal is more along the lines of maximum airflow, then.....
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Old 08-05-2012, 07:49 PM   #14
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2012ZL1, I enjoyed the lengthy reply.
Really looking forward to the new DI V8s, add a blower.... and BOOM serious power with less det and better mileage to boot!
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Old 08-05-2012, 08:04 PM   #15
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me too as long as they figure out how to keep the valves clean. I think the Pcv days have run their course.
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Old 08-06-2012, 03:12 AM   #16
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D.I ..yeah thats an interesting subject. That would rely on the injector to :

1. Overcome combustion pressure
2. Provide an extremly high level of atomization
3. Ideally allow for the best manifold and head flow.

Dry air is easier to deal with than wet air. I guess Injector "aiming" and combustion chamber / piston shape would be all you have to work with for homogenizing the mixture.
Sounds interesting I think I'll have to read up on it.
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Old 08-06-2012, 04:01 AM   #17
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Hey 2012ZL1, now research how changing fuel injectors on an LSA might affect atomization with or without the wing...
Interesting. One would think larger injectors would reduce the need for detonation help, but In this case I don't think injector size has any effect.
If the tune is done correctly the computer takes care of fuel air ratios and other than a larger inector being able to supply more fuel when asked, the fuel air mixtures are still the same.
Even if you used a different "style" of injector,and you find a style that provides better atomization, it would still need help to mix it into the air stream. It could be a heavy patch of fuel or a light patch of fuel it still wouldn't be mixed with the inlet air as well without turbulence.
IMHO injector type or size really has no effect on what the wing is trying to do.
I think a tune that uses a fuel curve optimized for performance rather than fuel economy will no doubt help with detonation over a factory curve, so a wing may be slightly less important with a performance fuel curve.
I think now that I examined the reason for the wing, for all out power, removing the wing should not cause a problem, because at some point, elevated rpm and boost levels require volume and flow over chamber turbulence to reduce detonation.
Also one could remove or shrink the wing if other measures were substituted for reducing detonation such as cooler inlet air, better fuel, etc.
The wing is great for the intended usage and boundaries of the stock or mild engine.
Before I pushed this engine to the extremes I think I would change pistons and rods anyway, so the question comes to mind is it worth it to remove the wing for me?...probably not. I will probably have the ports cleaned up, gasket matched and call it a day.
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Old 08-06-2012, 09:48 AM   #18
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Old 08-07-2012, 01:50 AM   #19
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Just read another thread on the subject at another site. Apparently the wings also direct the fuel air mixture into the center of the cylinder. More research is needed.
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Old 08-10-2012, 11:52 AM   #20
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found a nice article on the ZR1 heads... they also talk about the wings...

http://corvetteactioncenter.com/spec..._pursuit6.html
right clicking is disabled but point 4 is where it talks about it
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Old 08-10-2012, 11:55 AM   #21
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It's squeltch, not quench.
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Old 08-11-2012, 02:37 AM   #22
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found a nice article on the ZR1 heads... they also talk about the wings...

http://corvetteactioncenter.com/spec..._pursuit6.html


right clicking is disabled but point 4 is where it talks about it
Nice read! Good Find!
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Old 08-11-2012, 03:05 AM   #23
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Are these wings anything like the old 462 SBC heads were they thought having a specific shape in the valve boal area, it would cause a tornadic effect and mix the fuel better??? After some time and research was done the hot rod community simply removed all the material. The finding was it caused more harm than good. Removing the excess materials from under the valve area, Think it was called boal blending, actuall increased the CFM of the heads substantually.. So it would stand to reason that if this is helping to mix the charge of fuel as it enters the valve boal area I would think its effectiveness would be determined by the location of the injector nozel vs the air flow vs the wing placment. We need pictures..... If this wing is actuall doing its job and a supercharged engine does infact benifit from this extra mixing of the fuel, why not desighn a injector like a nitrous nozel?? That way it could be pointed in the direction of the incoming air and cause greater atimoziation of fuel.. ????? kinda like pissing in the wind.. Sorry for the spelling...
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Old 08-11-2012, 03:14 AM   #24
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some info on flow.. I will find some more and I saw the wing. This is a completly differand design than the old fuel heads. under the old fuel head in the boal area, I guess it could best be described as a giant single protruding thread, directly under the valve seat. It was supose to do the very same thing as this wing. http://www.circletrack.com/enginetec...s/viewall.html
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Old 08-11-2012, 03:19 AM   #25
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you can see here were the boal has been somewhat blended removing some of this lip/ or thread area. what ever it's called??? hope this info helps....
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