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Old 08-30-2012, 07:27 AM   #51
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I dont think u had a brain fart, u just too excited about that sick car u got coming. I cant sleep anymore wondering when mine is coming and then this morning my dealer tells me I am still at 1100 status!!!!!! Suks.
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Old 08-30-2012, 10:57 AM   #52
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I dont think u had a brain fart, u just too excited about that sick car u got coming. I cant sleep anymore wondering when mine is coming and then this morning my dealer tells me I am still at 1100 status!!!!!! Suks.
Me too. I just email my uncle( sold me the car) and asked him wtf basically. ha He said he knows someone very well above him that may be able to "pull my order and get it moved up". I'll laugh if I come off the line one single # in front of you. LOL
Still waiting to hear back from him. I ordered mine on 18 Aug and still 1100 as well.
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Old 08-30-2012, 11:08 AM   #53
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Me too. I just email my uncle( sold me the car) and asked him wtf basically. ha He said he knows someone very well above him that may be able to "pull my order and get it moved up". I'll laugh if I come off the line one single # in front of you. LOL
Still waiting to hear back from him. I ordered mine on 18 Aug and still 1100 as well.
Hope you hear from him soon and get it taken care of. It'll definately be worth the wait.
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Old 08-30-2012, 11:11 AM   #54
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For sure! It's just SSSOOOO frustrating. I KNOW it's several weeks away and it's a bit silly to want to know.....Whats up today? HA Wish I could fall into a coma for a few weeks and wake up sitting in it :P
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Old 09-01-2012, 03:07 PM   #55
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If you want a car to feel truly neutral you should keep the same tire and rim size on all corners. What GM did actually doesn't seem to make sense. I am very familiar with setting up a car to feel more neutral and balanced with success, one instance was when I placed a 15x8" wheel with 205-50-15 up front and rear was 195-55-15 rear on a 15x7" rim and this was to make an E30 BMW 325E feel neutral because of the inline 6 Iron block up front being soooo damn heavy. It worked greatly so much that the car felt very neutral and I ended up almost damn near turning into the curb every time I cornered. Only thing was that the car looked weird with a wider front than rear. 285s on the 11" rear is going to be stretched tighter than 285s on front resulting in more taught feel than the sloppier front setup, this as well would induce a slight under steer effect. I honestly think that 305" in the rear would add more grip and have similar or less understeer effect due to the fact that the rear would now have a less taught stretched tire set up and more slop allowing the rear to sway more outwards when entering corners.
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Old 09-01-2012, 06:35 PM   #56
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The 305's "will" provide more grip, ensuring understeer.
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Old 09-02-2012, 09:28 AM   #57
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If you want a car to feel truly neutral you should keep the same tire and rim size on all corners. What GM did actually doesn't seem to make sense. I am very familiar with setting up a car to feel more neutral and balanced with success, one instance was when I placed a 15x8" wheel with 205-50-15 up front and rear was 195-55-15 rear on a 15x7" rim and this was to make an E30 BMW 325E feel neutral because of the inline 6 Iron block up front being soooo damn heavy. It worked greatly so much that the car felt very neutral and I ended up almost damn near turning into the curb every time I cornered.
That sounds more like "loose", and too oversteerish for most drivers (a 15x7.5 might have been a better choice of rear wheel size).



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285s on the 11" rear is going to be stretched tighter than 285s on front resulting in more taught feel than the sloppier front setup, this as well would induce a slight under steer effect.
I suspect that's exactly what was intended. Makes the car a little more predictable under drop-throttle, which is the first thing most drivers do when they find themselves entering a corner a little too hot for their experience.

An alternative that I'm sure you'd find less acceptable would have been to leave it "looser" and crutch that with more aggressive stability control. Precedent exists, in the Lexus GX460's that were found to have lift-throttle oversteer which was "corrected" via re-flash of the stability control rather than fixing it mechanically/geometrically.


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Old 09-02-2012, 09:58 AM   #58
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That sounds more like "loose", and too oversteerish for most drivers (a 15x7.5 might have been a better choice of rear wheel size).




I suspect that's exactly what was intended. Makes the car a little more predictable under drop-throttle, which is the first thing most drivers do when they find themselves entering a corner a little too hot for their experience.

An alternative that I'm sure you'd find less acceptable would have been to leave it "looser" and crutch that with more aggressive stability control. Precedent exists, in the Lexus GX460's that were found to have lift-throttle oversteer which was "corrected" via re-flash of the stability control rather than fixing it mechanically/geometrically.


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Actually no it wasn't too loose at all but yeah 7.5" rear with rims would have been a better deal. But what I am saying is that coming from being accustomed to all that understeer to being neutral with the wider wheel in front meant that I had to readjust that's why I almost turned into the wall a few times after initial change but after a while it felt damn good. I still ended up selling that car though to a guy who kept bragging about beating ZR-1 in autocross events at FT Devin. That E30 was on par with Lotus exiges and so on but on large courses it wouldn't stand a chance against the faster cars.
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Old 09-02-2012, 10:24 AM   #59
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Ummm, not too loose for you or me or the guy you sold that car to doesn't mean that that level of looseness would be stable enough for the entire range of drivers that Chevy considers its 1LE target buyer.

I used to occasionally drive a swing-axle Corvair (sometimes pretty darn briskly), and I'm sure that GM still maintains a little conservatism in their cars' handling as that car's ultimate legacy.


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Old 09-02-2012, 10:32 AM   #60
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Ummm, not too loose for you or me or the guy you sold that car to doesn't mean that that level of looseness would be stable enough for the entire range of drivers that Chevy considers its 1LE target buyer.

I used to occasionally drive a swing-axle Corvair (sometimes pretty darn briskly), and I'm sure that GM still maintains a little conservatism in their cars' handling as that car's ultimate legacy.


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It was loose when I had the snow tires on but it also had Suspension Techniques swaybar package and it was actually very stable and way more stable than a stock SS by far. Actually stock SS and Mustang GT scare the crap out of me with rear end instability. Don't forget that E30 is a very small car and didn't need wide tire/rim setup like our cars would, they actually race those cars in spec E30 class with that size rim.
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Old 09-03-2012, 11:32 AM   #61
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I suspect that's exactly what was intended. Makes the car a little more predictable under drop-throttle, which is the first thing most drivers do when they find themselves entering a corner a little too hot for their experience.
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Okay Norm, I'll bite. So if a track novice enters a corner too hot with a near neutral car what should the driver do?

And I guess too hot is a "feel" thing where you know where the limits of the car are. These limits are probably much safer to explore in a Miata than in a 1LE. Most of these people who want more power in the 1LE to me, are thinking more of the drag strip than the track. I can tell you 426 at the crank can get you into trouble fast.

A day at the track with my humble LS3 has taught me respect. I think I should autocross my SS to learn more about the car with my setup.

I wish I could afford to trade my SS for a 1LE. I think it would wind up a little less harsh and noisy than my current set up. But three kids in college and one getting married has cleaned me out. Looking forward to seeing more real world 1LE info once they start arriving.
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Old 09-03-2012, 02:12 PM   #62
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Okay Norm, I'll bite. So if a track novice enters a corner too hot with a near neutral car what should the driver do?

And I guess too hot is a "feel" thing where you know where the limits of the car are. These limits are probably much safer to explore in a Miata than in a 1LE. Most of these people who want more power in the 1LE to me, are thinking more of the drag strip than the track. I can tell you 426 at the crank can get you into trouble fast.

A day at the track with my humble LS3 has taught me respect. I think I should autocross my SS to learn more about the car with my setup.

I wish I could afford to trade my SS for a 1LE. I think it would wind up a little less harsh and noisy than my current set up. But three kids in college and one getting married has cleaned me out. Looking forward to seeing more real world 1LE info once they start arriving.
I agree with the power thing and it is something that gets me too. On a Forum like this or say a Mustang forum, all we think about is more power or ridiculous power like 800 whp and so on for only street use. For us track only guys we don't need all that and honestly this car with slight more power would be enough for me. And honestly did that Yellow Camaro with Pfadt stuff on it that won the race have a tranny cooler, I don't remember, so maybe our cars don't really need one since lot's of us aren't driving the 24hours of le mans or doing any type of endurance racing. The only thing we would miss is the electric assist steering and if we are happy with our stock steering like I am then who needs it, I actually like my steering better than even the Corvette steering at low speeds even though the Vettes steering at high speeds is tighter .
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Old 09-03-2012, 03:00 PM   #63
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I've read so many things from so many sources I can't remember where I read this but the reason why GM is using the front tires on the back even though the rim is slightly wider is because the tires in the front are designed for turning and cornering traction whereas the rear tires on the ZL1 are designed more for straight line acceleration and drag racing. Has something to do with the way Goodyear designed the tires.

Rather than spend the money to make a rear rim in the ZL1 style strictly for the 1LE which by their estimates is only going to be about 2% of Camaro sales, they simply chose for economical reasons to use the existing rear rim of the ZL1 since it matches the style of the fronts.
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Old 09-03-2012, 04:46 PM   #64
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If you bought 2 1LE front wheels and put them in the back with the same tires theres no reason they wouldn't fit right? Would it change the performance? It would still be the same amount of tire touching the ground. I'm guessing they would have had to change suspension pieces to put the 10s in the rear.
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Old 09-03-2012, 05:23 PM   #65
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I'm sure there is a different offset between them. That could make other issues appear.
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Old 09-03-2012, 06:33 PM   #66
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I'm sure there is a different offset between them. That could make other issues appear.
Ok.
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Old 09-03-2012, 06:39 PM   #67
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The only thing we would miss is the electric assist steering and if we are happy with our stock steering like I am then who needs it, I actually like my steering better than even the Corvette steering at low speeds even though the Vettes steering at high speeds is tighter .
Have you tried Radius rod inserts? Easy install.
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Old 09-03-2012, 07:06 PM   #68
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Have you tried Radius rod inserts? Easy install.
I tried them all.
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Old 09-03-2012, 08:36 PM   #69
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Okay Norm, I'll bite. So if a track novice enters a corner too hot with a near neutral car what should the driver do?
A track novice shouldn't put himself in that position in the first place. Being able to override the tendency to want to slow down and use either maintenance throttle or leading throttle are not exactly novice-level techniques.

I'd define "too hot" as being beyond what the driver is comfortable with, usually based on speed, though the root cause could really be poor choice of line. You can find yourself "too hot" rather suddenly if your concentration lapses for any reason. Never mind how I might know this or how recently the latest reminder was.

I believe there's a basic difference between the average driver (or drag racer) and a "corner-carver". The average driver (novice track day participant) mostly just vaguely follows the pavement in daily driving and reacts when he's about to run out of pavement. The "corner-carver" has a plan to be on the line ahead of time and some sense of either being on it or definitely off of it even under moderate driving conditions.



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Old 09-03-2012, 08:48 PM   #70
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PYROLYSIS - Staggered offset here appears to be what it took to match the front and rear track dimensions with different width front and rear wheels.


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Old 09-04-2012, 09:36 PM   #71
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A track novice shouldn't put himself in that position in the first place. Being able to override the tendency to want to slow down and use either maintenance throttle or leading throttle are not exactly novice-level techniques.

I'd define "too hot" as being beyond what the driver is comfortable with, usually based on speed, though the root cause could really be poor choice of line. You can find yourself "too hot" rather suddenly if your concentration lapses for any reason. Never mind how I might know this or how recently the latest reminder was.

I believe there's a basic difference between the average driver (or drag racer) and a "corner-carver". The average driver (novice track day participant) mostly just vaguely follows the pavement in daily driving and reacts when he's about to run out of pavement. The "corner-carver" has a plan to be on the line ahead of time and some sense of either being on it or definitely off of it even under moderate driving conditions.

Norm
Ah so the advice is be careful until you have some idea of what you are doing. And once you do go in too hot, don't panic and over react.

I disagree about the difference between corner carvers and novices. Once the beginner (like me) understands there is an approach to a corner, its fun to put that into practice when you can. I just wish tracking was less expensive. I enjoy drag racing too. For $15 I can have a night of fun and meet some cool people.

I think the 1LE, as with the ZL1, will be a good choice for either track.
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Old 09-04-2012, 09:48 PM   #72
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It's all about cutting the perfect apex. Which as you say takes the right approach and yes that takes practice, a lot of practice. At a certain point the car feels like an extension of oneself. Work on consistency and add speed.
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Old 09-05-2012, 10:16 AM   #73
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Once the beginner (like me) understands there is an approach to a corner,
There's still a difference between knowing mentally what you generally need to do, and having a distinct sense that you were either getting the corner(s) somewhere near right . . . or that you were in the process of botching it (them?). For most people, I doubt that this "sense" develops as an overnight revelation.


I wasn't picking on drag racing per se, just noting that where corner-carving is concerned the average drag racer has more in common with the average street driver.


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Old 09-05-2012, 01:52 PM   #74
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Yes, in road course tracking you've got to set yourself correctly not just for the corner your entering, but the following one as well.
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Old 09-05-2012, 09:08 PM   #75
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There's still a difference between knowing mentally what you generally need to do, and having a distinct sense that you were either getting the corner(s) somewhere near right . . . or that you were in the process of botching it (them?). For most people, I doubt that this "sense" develops as an overnight revelation.

I wasn't picking on drag racing per se, just noting that where corner-carving is concerned the average drag racer has more in common with the average street driver.

Norm
I agree with you. Real corner-carving is more complex than amateur drag racing and to be good at it requires more instruction, experience, thought, and practice. But corner-carvers have to start somewhere.

Which brings me back to the topic of this thread. The 1LE looks like it will be a great entry vehicle to get an owner interested in motor sports off his or her butt and actually get out there and be a participant rather than a spectator. New corner-carvers will be born because of cars like the 1LE and the Boss 302.

The ZL1, while at least equally competent, will not be as likely to encourage tracking due to its increased cost. Owners will not be as likely to risk damage to their more valuable car. A car they may have had to stretch their finances to buy.
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