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Old 08-07-2012, 04:14 PM   #69
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I wasn't there, but I have experienced the same "white-knuckle" cruise in a similar environment. TAG is right...if the cruise had taken place on a back road, single-lane roadway all problems are alleviated. The mentality on the freeway is to stick close to the bumper in front of you so that Joe Sixpack doesn't cut into your line. You give him enough of a gap, and he'll shoot it anyway. Then the brakes come on in a hurry.

I'll be participating in a local cruise that promises to be 1500 cars or so. I'll keep my fingers crossed. Also, I do hope to make next year's C5 event.
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Old 08-07-2012, 05:01 PM   #70
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Exactly.

THIS is what we wanted....and quite frankly, I felt let down. This is the only way we'll ever do it again. I'm sorry guys. I feel like I let a lot of people down. :(
Thanks a lot TAG!

I must say, the cruises if too long and too big become work. I will consider all these post the next time. The size of the highway (lanes) make a big difference. 4 lanes were less of an issue, but two lanes were insane. The cruise home with 7 others was awesome. We worked in sync and made great time.
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Old 08-07-2012, 07:13 PM   #71
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Haven't seen a decent rant yet so I'll start.

Loved the idea of the cruise. The Indianapolis PD did a spectacular job.

Those hazard lights though...wow. Coming from an ex-leo... that was ABSOLUTELY unacceptable. The danger we brought to the high way was outrageous. I witness 3 very near misses including one of my own.

I was cruising...I had my lady in the car. I did not say but maybe 10 words to her that entire cruise. I was too focused on the car in front of me. Even at that...I nearly rear ended a ZL1. Someone 2 cars in front of him slammed on their breaks...started a chain reaction...next thing I know I was sideways looking at the median. I was paying full attention the whole time. I made sure I had a nice gap for a bail out on both sides the whole trip.

Then when regular motorist got behind some Camaros with the hazards on...that was even worse. I saw many many close calls.

I think this was just a mistake on someones part. They just didn't think of what could happen. I understand. It was probably the IPD.

Mid-Atlantic Caravan.

Unacceptable. Cruising at a constant 80 mph. Completely dangerous. I am disappointed in how this went (edog...organization was great. You did a spectacular job man). Just because there are 100 of us does not mean we are above the law, as we obviously learned. It took one person calling 9-1-1 and the entire local Indiana State Patrol post started tearing us apart. How many of us were pulled over? 7-10? That accident was great also. From what I heard it sounded like a young driver not paying attention (texting?).

For those of you who did not hear about this. We had someone call the ISP on us and they sent a load of troopers after us and tore the caravan apart. Also in the chaos there was an accident involving 4 Camaros. Just use this as an example when you are cruising with your friends or running with 100 Camaros next fest. Just use your brain. You show off more when you go slow (the speed limits).


OK, OK. I'm just finally firing up the computer and to read a bunch of conjecture and heresay being passed off as reporting is a bit surprising. You were either being presumptuous or you were simply misinformed, but the cruise from Virginia to Indy at absolutely no stretch was doing 80. I was in the front for much of this cruise. I was also in the back. I was one of those people who got in the other lane and passed cars (although I did it quite slowly). I also did it backwards. You know how long it took to get from the front of the line to the back? I had to pull into the right lane and do 50. Fifty! Because the entire cruise was going so slow, I had to do 50 just to allow cars to pass me. Still took about 30 minutes to get all the way to the back. I assure you this, my friend. The cruise was not going 80.In the front of the cruise, edog had 'em a few ticks under the speed limit. In fact, even on the three trips I made from the very back to the very front, I was able to make it all the way up without doing an excessive speed (I never touched 85 the entire way out), although there did seem to be a consistent gap in the middle of the pack where trucks would get in and widen the line. for those stuck behind the gapper (it was the same person the whole time, but I won't name names), I don't understand why none of you passed him. Perhaps before you chastise Ernie in a public forum for leading the cruise at too high a rate of speed, you should check your facts. Especially considering that the accident happened in a construction zone where traffic was already bogged down and it was physically impossible for any of the cars to be speeding. It was stop and go traffic conditions. How were they going 80? Perhaps an apology is in order.

The simple fact is, whatever went wrong was not caused by speeding and it was not caused by people changing lanes. In fact, when you're part of a cruise, driving like you normally would on the highway, including making lane changes (with proper signalling) and dealing with other motorists does not make the cruise less safe. It actually accomplishes quite the opposite and makes it more safe. It's the false sense of safety created by feeling like you're part of a group, the highway hypnosis that sets in when you've stared at the back of the same car for 5 hours straight, and the increasing reactions (and decreasing reaction times) to any outside stimulus that gets passed down the line in the cruise that combine to make cruises less safe. As the group grows in size, these problems only become exacerbated. Throw in the problems any construction zone creates on any highway and you can see how things get dicey. Now, I'm not saying that these are insurmountable problems (obviously most of the cars got through without being damaged, yet despite my pretty decent amount of knowledge of the intimate details of the situation, all I can still say is I couldn't tell you exactly why it happened. Was it a young person? yes, you got one right. was he not paying attention? I wasn't there, were you? Yet somehow you know all the reasons it happened, and you even threw in texting with a question mark to show everyone just how clever you can be . Congratulations. You win the CSI/Encyclopedia Brown Award for not only figuring out all the missing pieces, but for hammering in a few made up ones as well.

Moving on, let's talk about Indiana's State Police Force and the 7-10 cars that got pulled over. I don't know about 6-9 of them, but one of them was me. The officer had good reason to pull me over and was quite cordial. He explained to me that some Camaros were observed racing each other. he did not specify if this was by a Trooper or a private citizen. I do know that I certainly did not get pulled over because someone called 911. I got pulled over because I broke the law. From what I understand, the officers did not "tear the cruise apart." They did, however, pick out a few people who they observed driving in a dangerous manner. Again, this reflects poorly on no one but the individuals involved. Not Edog, not the Indiana State Police and not the good citizens commuting on I-70 that day. Despite all of this, I never felt like the cruise was terrifying or even any more nerve-wracking than any other time I'm on an unfamiliar roadway and need to be extra alert.

That being said, I absolutely 100% period point blank agree with you that the Camaro5 Fest III Opening Cruise was as dangerous as it was because of the use of the hazards while the vehicles were being operated. No brake lights, no turn signals. I used them to stage at the beginning of the cruise, but turned them off before I got onto the highway. The gentleman in front of me turned his off immediately follwing the incident where I was within inches of hitting his rear end because he was within inches of hitting someone else's rear end. The car behind me was able to take evasive maneuvers and bypass the accident because he saw my brake lights and could react earlier than anyone else was able to. Lesson learned.


to end this rant, I'm going to just go ahead and apologize now if i was a little harsh here, Adam. I just don't see the point in pouring water on a drowning man. I'm guessin' the guy felt about as bad as he could over the whole situation. this thread seemed a bit in poor taste. You took it as an opportunity to point out just how bad he messed up (as if the evidence wasn;t already there), then trumped up your argument with wild guesses and information garnered from that old stalwart of reliable sources "from what I heard." I'm thinkin' your whole rant would've been equally effective had you just done some editing. But, if I was a jerk in any way to you, I was probably just passing that along. I should know better than that and be the bigger person, so I'm sorry.
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Old 08-07-2012, 07:48 PM   #72
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OK, OK. I'm just finally firing up the computer and to read a bunch of conjecture and heresay being passed off as reporting is a bit surprising.
Cutting your quote down because it was a book (but I did read it all )

First, I in no way said anything against edog. He did a spectacular job. I can't wait to see him take it on next year.

6, (I counted 6) if not more, state troopers don't show up all in the same place and start pulling Camaros over unless someone called and complained. From this comment...apparently multiple people called and complained.

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I was pull over with 3 other Camaro's by ISP on the Dayton to Indy caravan and the LEO said to me that many complaints on the group of cars.
With this quote and the next it shows that we were consistently over the posted speed limits. Now the front of the caravan could have been going 55. I don't know I wasn't there. I know there was long periods of speeding...and I had a lot of people on my phone walkie complaining of high speeds. Also before I met up with the caravan I asked my friend (who was in the caravan most of the time) how great it was and she complained that they were struggling to keep up.

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Originally Posted by markssylver View Post
There was a lot of close calls especially in the construction zone with no shoulder an the traffic going from 70 to 0 in the blink of an eye I almost tapped the person in front of me as to passing on the right and getting back in I did it to get from behind people, that seemed to keep p hitting the brake for no reason why ride behind someone who keeps hitting the brakes if there is a free and clear lane beside you you might have seen me as most people called me by my tag HVYHTTR

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I'm not complaining, just offering some info here... I was the very last car in the Atlantic caravan when we left Dayton. (I was driving my truck and didn't want to break up the line of Camaros) I was right behind the car in front of me as we got on the on ramp in Dayton and I immediately had to go 90 mph to try to catch him on the ramp. I couldn't. I said "screw this" and slowed down to a still-not-even-close-to-legal speed. It took me 20 miles to catch the caravan. Then it was just like everyone said... high speeds followed by sudden braking.

I saw no fewer than 4 Camaros pulled over for speeding in both Ohio and Indiana. I went by the 4-car crash. I feel especially bad for that last blue car's owner. It was in a construction zone with tons of semis and no shoulder. It was an accident waiting to happen.

I eventually gave up trying to stay with the group. It was impossible. I just drove to the hotel and got off the expressway ramp right behind the Camaros in the caravan. I caught up in the end.

It was just too fast for that much traffic. Maybe the leaders weren't going that fast, but it was insane at the back of the pack.

The Fest cruise around Indy was a piece of cake compared to that. Especially because I was riding in the back of a friend's convertible (thanks to Chris and Susan!) and I didn't have to drive.

I agree with others. Cruising in a caravan with that many car on a busy expressway is just not a good idea.


Now, with the accident. My friend was in it. She explained to me that she, and the other 2 camaros, were all completely stopped because traffic was stopped...then the collision began because the person, obviously not paying attention, hit the transformer which was pushed into the next car which was pushed into the next (now remember, this was stopped traffic, so the 3 camaros all had their foots on the breaks. To hit a car and push it into 2 cars in front of them, you need to be going very fast). Now, if he was paying attention, he would have stopped for stopped traffic. Also, I don't he was painting his nails. I would be willing to bet he was on his phone.
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Old 08-07-2012, 08:32 PM   #73
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You have to realize that if the lead car has their vehicle set on cruise at or near the speed limit, the total caravan will be fine UNTIL a non-caravan'er pulls into the caravan going slower than that set cruise speed. Depending on how much slower they are going than the cruise speed, this can put a decent sized gap in the caravan.

In order for those stuck caravan'ers to catch up, they have to exceed the cruise speed to get back with the pack and resume the line of the caravan.

This should be pretty well understood physics. It should also be well understood that the longer the caravan is and the more people you have cutting in and out slowing down groups, you will easily see the back of the pack reaching excessive speeds to catch up.

I was the lead vehicle for the Texas caravan for the majority of the trip. And I can tell you, without a doubt, that there are times when you can tell it's not dangerous at all to air it out a little, and there are other times when you know that slower is better. The single biggest thing that helps coordinate a caravan more than anything else - Walkie Talkies!

The lead car (like me) should have a radar detector (a good one, not a Wal-Mart special) and should be constantly radio-ing back pertinent information. Not just whether or not there's an officer ahead, or radar going off, but also any potential dangers like road debris or construction zone signs indicating lane closures. The walkie-talkies make all of this information sharing exceedingly easier and makes the caravan exponentially safer. Our biggest problem was that, towards the end of the day, the batteries were dying because we'd been on the road so long

We did have one close call on our caravan on the way up there. I had given the vehicle in front of me about 5 car lengths going through a construction area. Earlier in the day, the left two lanes had been shut down due to some kind of accident. But as we were coming through, they were literally JUST opening those lanes up. Traffic was slow going, so I was only moving about 45mph. Behind me was Chris (Atti2de) and behind him was a non-caravan'er in a white chevy truck riding his backside. Suddenly the vehicle in front of me slammed on his brakes. I could have easily stopped my vehicle behind that vehicle, but I knew that the truck would have just plowed Chris right into me. I moved onto the shoulder and pulled up along side the vehicle that had been in front of me. That gave Chris an extra car length to keep the truck out of his back seat and we drove away completely unscathed. All this story proves is that situational awareness will always trump perfectly acceptable driving habits.

All that being said, if you don't want to speed, you don't have to. No one is holding a gun to your head and telling you to mash the gas. If you don't feel safe, you have the destination addresses readily available to you - go at your own speed.

The flip side of that coin: don't speed if you can't afford the consequences. And that's all I'm going to say there.
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Old 08-07-2012, 08:48 PM   #74
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I would like to take this moment to ask anyone bashing the ABM driver to please stop. Was he not paying attention, yes. Was he going to fast, double yes. I know if that was me and i caused the 4 Camaro pile-up I would feel like crap. I wouldnt want to be blasted online after finding out my Camaro was just total. Which I know for a fact because I just got off the phone with the adjuster a few hours ago.

Let's just be happy that no one got hurt. Camaros will be fixed. I am grateful that the transformer was not flipped on top of my car. The ABM went under the TF and lifted it off the ground.

Let's use this as a lesson for future events.

Edog, you did a wonderful job the cruise from MD to Dayton was amazing.
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Old 08-07-2012, 08:52 PM   #75
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Cutting your quote down because it was a book (but I did read it all )

First, I in no way said anything against edog. He did a spectacular job. I can't wait to see him take it on next year.

6, (I counted 6) if not more, state troopers don't show up all in the same place and start pulling Camaros over unless someone called and complained. From this comment...apparently multiple people called and complained.



With this quote and the next it shows that we were consistently over the posted speed limits. Now the front of the caravan could have been going 55. I don't know I wasn't there. I know there was long periods of speeding...and I had a lot of people on my phone walkie complaining of high speeds. Also before I met up with the caravan I asked my friend (who was in the caravan most of the time) how great it was and she complained that they were struggling to keep up.








Now, with the accident. My friend was in it. She explained to me that she, and the other 2 camaros, were all completely stopped because traffic was stopped...then the collision began because the person, obviously not paying attention, hit the transformer which was pushed into the next car which was pushed into the next (now remember, this was stopped traffic, so the 3 camaros all had their foots on the breaks. To hit a car and push it into 2 cars in front of them, you need to be going very fast). Now, if he was paying attention, he would have stopped for stopped traffic. Also, I don't he was painting his nails. I would be willing to bet he was on his phone.
Funny how we hear many different versions of this said accident...like almost the 'broken telephone' game. In any case...this accident happened way behind us..and it included 2 of our Canadian crew and yes..one of my friends as well...so far as I heard it...the last one..was going too fast. As for being on the phone..I don't know..I wasn't there...but I have seen many that drove and talked on the phone while on the road. For us..at home it's illegal ...I don't know about it there. I had hear some rumors..but those were cleared.
I'm still not going to talk about what really happened...I'm not going to stir anything...not my thing....Just was very happy that no one was hurt...
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Old 08-07-2012, 08:56 PM   #76
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Funny how we hear many different versions of this said accident...like almost the 'broken telephone' game. In any case...this accident happened way behind us..and it included 2 of our Canadian crew and yes..one of my friends as well...so far as I heard it...the last one..was going too fast. As for being on the phone..I don't know..I wasn't there...but I have seen many that drove and talked on the phone while on the road. For us..at home it's illegal ...I don't know about it there. I had hear some rumors..but those were cleared.
I'm still not going to talk about what really happened...I'm not going to stir anything...not my thing....Just was very happy that no one was hurt...
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Old 08-07-2012, 08:59 PM   #77
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Tag, while I didn't make it in time to be a part of the cruise I just want you to know that im sure you didn't let anyone down. Having a cruise with ~270 cars is no easy task, as long as you learn from the mistakes for next time its all golden.
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:03 PM   #78
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I don't disagree, but they will tell you, and correctly so, that they pay HUGE taxes to drive on those roads. That road is in serious need of a widening project.

Rt. 71 between Cleveland and Columbus used to be the same way and the traffic conditions were vastly improved when they widened it.
Glad they're paying more as they tear up the roads and bridges more. As far as widening I-70, if the money isn't already allocated it will be at least another ten years before you see something happen. According to a retired ODOT administrator I work with there is NO money or projects planned to widen 70 between 75 and the IN border. Unfortunately some in Washington will not pass a long-term highway bill as has been proposed by congress so don't expect any progress.

Sorry Adam, I changed the subject and did my own rant. I can't comment on the CRUISE as I didn't participate. I have no interest in joining a five mile long traffic jam with a manual, rough idle cammed car. I have been on other "cruises" and enjoyed them. Definitely helps to be near the front. If in the back you just need to forget about keeping up and run your own speed and cruise.

Maybe in the future the Fest will have a venue where they can do a cruise on a closed road course or out in the country somewhere. A major city only an hour removed from the rush hour is not ideal. Too bad IMS was not better to deal with. A two and a half mile track would have worked good for two or three hundred cars.

I will commend Tag and the others for working hard with L.E. and pulling it off where they were.
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Old 08-07-2012, 10:24 PM   #79
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Glad they're paying more as they tear up the roads and bridges more. As far as widening I-70, if the money isn't already allocated it will be at least another ten years before you see something happen. According to a retired ODOT administrator I work with there is NO money or projects planned to widen 70 between 75 and the IN border. Unfortunately some in Washington will not pass a long-term highway bill as has been proposed by congress so don't expect any progress.

Sorry Adam, I changed the subject and did my own rant. I can't comment on the CRUISE as I didn't participate. I have no interest in joining a five mile long traffic jam with a manual, rough idle cammed car. I have been on other "cruises" and enjoyed them. Definitely helps to be near the front. If in the back you just need to forget about keeping up and run your own speed and cruise.

Maybe in the future the Fest will have a venue where they can do a cruise on a closed road course or out in the country somewhere. A major city only an hour removed from the rush hour is not ideal. Too bad IMS was not better to deal with. A two and a half mile track would have worked good for two or three hundred cars.

I will commend Tag and the others for working hard with L.E. and pulling it off where they were.
Understood bud lol
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Old 08-07-2012, 11:02 PM   #80
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As for being on the phone..I don't know..I wasn't there...but I have seen many that drove and talked on the phone while on the road. For us..at home it's illegal ...I don't know about it there. I had hear some rumors..but those were cleared.
No laws here in Indiana about being on the phone while driving. We do however have recently passed laws which prohibit texting or emailing while driving (OK at a stop light). But not illegal to surf the web lol. Tough one to enforce...
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Old 08-07-2012, 11:50 PM   #81
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No laws here in Indiana about being on the phone while driving. We do however have recently passed laws which prohibit texting or emailing while driving (OK at a stop light). But not illegal to surf the web lol. Tough one to enforce...
Yes...I hear you...actually...it's illegal to talk on the phone...text and email..only a blue tooth is allowed here in Montreal.
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Old 08-08-2012, 01:30 AM   #82
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You have to realize that if the lead car has their vehicle set on cruise at or near the speed limit, the total caravan will be fine UNTIL a non-caravan'er pulls into the caravan going slower than that set cruise speed. Depending on how much slower they are going than the cruise speed, this can put a decent sized gap in the caravan.

In order for those stuck caravan'ers to catch up, they have to exceed the cruise speed to get back with the pack and resume the line of the caravan.

This should be pretty well understood physics. It should also be well understood that the longer the caravan is and the more people you have cutting in and out slowing down groups, you will easily see the back of the pack reaching excessive speeds to catch up.

I was the lead vehicle for the Texas caravan for the majority of the trip. And I can tell you, without a doubt, that there are times when you can tell it's not dangerous at all to air it out a little, and there are other times when you know that slower is better. The single biggest thing that helps coordinate a caravan more than anything else - Walkie Talkies!

The lead car (like me) should have a radar detector (a good one, not a Wal-Mart special) and should be constantly radio-ing back pertinent information. Not just whether or not there's an officer ahead, or radar going off, but also any potential dangers like road debris or construction zone signs indicating lane closures. The walkie-talkies make all of this information sharing exceedingly easier and makes the caravan exponentially safer. Our biggest problem was that, towards the end of the day, the batteries were dying because we'd been on the road so long

We did have one close call on our caravan on the way up there. I had given the vehicle in front of me about 5 car lengths going through a construction area. Earlier in the day, the left two lanes had been shut down due to some kind of accident. But as we were coming through, they were literally JUST opening those lanes up. Traffic was slow going, so I was only moving about 45mph. Behind me was Chris (Atti2de) and behind him was a non-caravan'er in a white chevy truck riding his backside. Suddenly the vehicle in front of me slammed on his brakes. I could have easily stopped my vehicle behind that vehicle, but I knew that the truck would have just plowed Chris right into me. I moved onto the shoulder and pulled up along side the vehicle that had been in front of me. That gave Chris an extra car length to keep the truck out of his back seat and we drove away completely unscathed. All this story proves is that situational awareness will always trump perfectly acceptable driving habits.

All that being said, if you don't want to speed, you don't have to. No one is holding a gun to your head and telling you to mash the gas. If you don't feel safe, you have the destination addresses readily available to you - go at your own speed.

The flip side of that coin: don't speed if you can't afford the consequences. And that's all I'm going to say there.
That's a helluva post, Justin. And you did a HELL of a job leading us to Indy and back home. GREAT job. Walkies? Ab so lutely! Great points.
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Tag, while I didn't make it in time to be a part of the cruise I just want you to know that im sure you didn't let anyone down. Having a cruise with ~270 cars is no easy task, as long as you learn from the mistakes for next time its all golden.


Thanks. And thanks to the others as well. For only a 2nd cruise, I sure am learning. If we can't do it the way I want next year, no cruise...simple as that. I NEED for everyone to enjoy it and not worry. I've never been so worried or focused on my driving as I was in that cruise. Sheesh...
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Old 08-08-2012, 05:28 AM   #83
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man, despite how many times it's been said and despite how many ways it's been said, we will just continue to throw assumptions out there and call 'em "what happened." he wasn't paying attention. he was texting. he was too young. now he's on the phone. do you not acknowledge the possibility that there may have been something equally or more pressing that occured that could've have required his attention to at least be divided? or is it just that you thought of one thing so now it's gotta be that thing. look, something went wrong, but to be so arrogant and presumptuous as to claim to know the details of that thing is kind of what started me railing on in the first place. I'm not saying you just shouldn't do it here. I'm saying you shouldn't do it at all. it'll make you a better person.
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Old 08-08-2012, 05:33 AM   #84
atma
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also, how could you claim that the caravan was doing continuous speeds of 80MPH and then claim that you never blamed edog? where's here's one of those places where it's not called being presumptuous, it's called following logic. the cars behind the lead couldn't consistently go faster than the lead car and never catch it. I somehow managed to move from the VERY LAST CAR to the VERY FIRST CAR three times and didn't consistently do 80 MPH for any reasonable stretch. so it's ok to know what someone else was thinking or doing at a moment in time when you're not present because you can't think of an alternative, but using the laws of physics that govern the very space time we live in to draw logical conclusions is not? ok... i'm done here. no manner of explanation is going to help here. just do me a favor and tell me where i lost that $10?
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Old 08-08-2012, 09:39 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atma View Post
man, despite how many times it's been said and despite how many ways it's been said, we will just continue to throw assumptions out there and call 'em "what happened." he wasn't paying attention. he was texting. he was too young. now he's on the phone. do you not acknowledge the possibility that there may have been something equally or more pressing that occured that could've have required his attention to at least be divided? or is it just that you thought of one thing so now it's gotta be that thing. look, something went wrong, but to be so arrogant and presumptuous as to claim to know the details of that thing is kind of what started me railing on in the first place. I'm not saying you just shouldn't do it here. I'm saying you shouldn't do it at all. it'll make you a better person.

Well said!

I wasn't part of the Thursday evening cruise,and I was only part of the Mid-Atlantic 'Camarovan" for a very short 50-60 miles as they came through my area of their route here in Uniontown,Pa. (I set-up lunch and fuel stops for them)
But I can tell you that almost everyone,including myself,had 2-way walkie-talkies,and that we were in constant contact with each other (well except for after lunch,buts thats a'whole other story! )

I can also tell you that Ernie (edog) made sure everyone was together,and that we stayed at safe speeds,even well below the speed limit at times,so everyone could keep a nice,safe,steady distance,and keep up with everyone else in front.

My hats off to edog for all he did,I can only hope I'm welcome to join his next "Camarovan"
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