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Old 05-27-2009, 09:55 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by KoTToN View Post
LOL,

I checked and it seems like 415hp is the norm for a stock gt500, so for 10k you can have around 120 more ponies than a stock gt and be right around the same price tag with a 3 year warranty.

Not bad, that as big of a difference in hp as a gt vs ss.
Hmmm "Me thinks he needs to check his numbers again !"

415 is no where near the norm for a stock GT500..Not sure where you got those numbers. And I still say you run that LS3 at those numbers and it will not be long before it goes B O O M. The LS3 can take some boost...sure, but its not a forged bottom end. Sure you can do 500+ to a GT...its not wise, but sure it can be done
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Old 05-28-2009, 05:49 AM   #114
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So if 415 is not the norm and 425 to 435 is, then ok, you really blew us out of the water with that realization of 10 to 15 hp more!!! Maybe you better call Lingenfelter and let them know that their packages aren't going to work because you said they are going to go BOOM! They might want to rethink their warranty of the S/C and engine if that is the case. I think I will trust their expertise over your vast knowledge of the LS3 engine.
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Old 05-28-2009, 06:17 AM   #115
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So if 415 is not the norm and 425 to 435 is, then ok, you really blew us out of the water with that realization of 10 to 15 hp more!!! Maybe you better call Lingenfelter and let them know that their packages aren't going to work because you said they are going to go BOOM! They might want to rethink their warranty of the S/C and engine if that is the case. I think I will trust their expertise over your vast knowledge of the LS3 engine.

1 WORD -ENGINEERING

Ok maybe 3 words - LINGENFELTER PERFORMANCE ENGINEERING - Yes they have engineering degree's,a few actually.
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Old 05-28-2009, 09:25 AM   #116
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OK - so I re-read the article regarding the KB vs the TVS 2300 (it was actually in 5.0 Mustang; I was wrong) and though the KB was proclaimed to be superior, I don't think I completely agree with all the methods and controls they used in the tests. For one, they went from the TVS to the KB using the same pulley size. However, it turned out the boost differential was something like 14 psi for the TVS and the KB was at like 20 psi! The KB showed A LOT more power, but it was making A LOT more psi. Also, the article stated using KB's intake system for this KB (2.8H was the model number I think) and it seemed like they used the OEM GT500 intake for the TVS - that upgraded intake was good for A LOT more power too. To me, the only real unbiased test was at the end of the article where they spun the blowers to achieve 20 psi of boost and quoted SC RPMs, air temperature, and power drain from the blower. The test concluded the KB operated more efficiently, HOWEVER, the TVS was spinning 18,000 RPMs while the KB was spinning 12,000 RPMs and they didn't disclose whether-or-not they were using the same pulleys for the dyno' tests. If that was the case, it seemed to me the test wasn't representative and equal because the pulley size wasn't made equal (like I mentioned above). I won't go into it more because I don't want to take away from this thread or from Magnusun - I only wanted to address what I posted earlier regarding a comparison of a screw vs the TVS. FWIW - this article may still be on the stands. It's an interesting read, but I think it's biased toward the KB. JMVHO.

You know, I was thinking last night after letting these numbers sink in even more, and realized this is even more power than the ZR1 dyno' I remember reading about a few months ago! And that was before adding boost, LTs, and the rest of the goodies. This is really something to behold, IMO. This is like 100 RWHP more than similarly equipped LS1 Camaros were making less than ten years ago! WOW!
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Old 05-28-2009, 09:41 AM   #117
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So if 415 is not the norm and 425 to 435 is, then ok, you really blew us out of the water with that realization of 10 to 15 hp more!!! Maybe you better call Lingenfelter and let them know that their packages aren't going to work because you said they are going to go BOOM! They might want to rethink their warranty of the S/C and engine if that is the case. I think I will trust their expertise over your vast knowledge of the LS3 engine.
Yet again the norm IS NOT 425~435..The NORM is 430~440 and that is on the 09 and under model. I have yet to see a gt500 dyno @ 425 bone stock. I was correct in what I said, 415 is NOT the norm no matter how you slice it.

Furthermore, Yes I have a engineering degree to.Do I build engines ? Hell no. But I do understand enough to know that a engine that was built to a certain spec, has something we call STRESS AND LIMITATIONS...IE when you PUSH IT BEYOND those limits things break.

The question is how far can the limits be pushed ? Your talking about pushing 600+ at the crank. On a non forged engine. Common sense says that a engine not design for that will only take so much at those elevated levels. Sure the numbers are fantastic. Those are really good gains and they have accomplished great numbers. Its great they offer a warranty on their parts. But unless THEY are going to replace your engine and not GM when it goes wrong, you are going to have a uphill battle having GM replace your engine when the pistons shake out of the exhaust like popcorn. Yeah good luck saying you did not have any mods on the car. Ya know, GM have engineers to...you know, the ones who actually BUILT the engine.

It will be the same as any other company with any other mod. GM is no different. You mod the hell out of the car, and push it pass the limitations it was design with, WITHOUT replacing said parts, it will break. And unless that warranty says they are replacing the parts that broke guess what ? You will be replacing that engine yourself.
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Old 05-28-2009, 09:46 AM   #118
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great stuff LPE!!
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Old 05-28-2009, 09:48 AM   #119
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OK - so I re-read the article regarding the KB vs the TVS 2300 (it was actually in 5.0 Mustang; I was wrong) and though the KB was proclaimed to be superior, I don't think I completely agree with all the methods and controls they used in the tests. For one, they went from the TVS to the KB using the same pulley size. However, it turned out the boost differential was something like 14 psi for the TVS and the KB was at like 20 psi! The KB showed A LOT more power, but it was making A LOT more psi. Also, the article stated using KB's intake system for this KB (2.8H was the model number I think) and it seemed like they used the OEM GT500 intake for the TVS - that upgraded intake was good for A LOT more power too. To me, the only real unbiased test was at the end of the article where they spun the blowers to achieve 20 psi of boost and quoted SC RPMs, air temperature, and power drain from the blower. The test concluded the KB operated more efficiently, HOWEVER, the TVS was spinning 18,000 RPMs while the KB was spinning 12,000 RPMs and they didn't disclose whether-or-not they were using the same pulleys for the dyno' tests. If that was the case, it seemed to me the test wasn't representative and equal because the pulley size wasn't made equal (like I mentioned above). I won't go into it more because I don't want to take away from this thread or from Magnusun - I only wanted to address what I posted earlier regarding a comparison of a screw vs the TVS. FWIW - this article may still be on the stands. It's an interesting read, but I think it's biased toward the KB. JMVHO.

You know, I was thinking last night after letting these numbers sink in even more, and realized this is even more power than the ZR1 dyno' I remember reading about a few months ago! And that was before adding boost, LTs, and the rest of the goodies. This is really something to behold, IMO. This is like 100 RWHP more than similarly equipped LS1 Camaros were making less than ten years ago! WOW!
I have said it time and time again, if the tests were done fairly the results would be quite different, they ALWAYS throw a larger blower in the test. KB, yes is a nice compressor, I am not taking anything away from them there......

Show me some apples to apples tests to make ME a believer.


On a side note we have a screw compressor here.............It keeps the air tanks full for the shop.
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Old 05-28-2009, 09:50 AM   #120
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Yes, I remember...



that just seems like a lot for not being forged with such a high CR???


As these types of modifications become more common, we will see what the breaking point of the LS3's are. No different than people that put 200 shots of nitrous into bone stock Gen 1 350's. Some blow immediately, some make it through a whole season. Time will tell.
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Old 05-28-2009, 09:58 AM   #121
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I have said it time and time again, if the tests were done fairly the results would be quite different, they ALWAYS throw a larger blower in the test. KB, yes is a nice compressor, I am not taking anything away from them there......

Show me some apples to apples tests to make ME a believer.


On a side note we have a screw compressor here.............It keeps the air tanks full for the shop.
When I got home and read that article again, it just seemed to me they started the article with a clear bias toward the KB and how much "better" it was. They just seemed to gloss over the details, like the psi they were running. That was the biggest detail to me and really got my attention. I'm glad someone was able to understand what I was trying to say. I didn't even make a big deal about the KB actually being bigger either - I missed that one. The only point they make to objectively make in was their statement on the reliability, power, and cost advantages of the Roots for the OEMs above the Screws. That, to me, went toward your statement of reliability the TVS has over Screws you mentioned in an earlier post.

LOL at the air compressor. Those things are LOUD! The shop I was working at switched over to screws a couple years before I left and those things moved some air. You just couldn't carry-on a conversation within 30-feet, LOL.

You you add what the RPM limitations are for the TVS and/or point us in a direction we can go to look at more detailed technical data for these superchargers?
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Old 05-28-2009, 09:58 AM   #122
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As these types of modifications become more common, we will see what the breaking point of the LS3's are. No different than people that put 200 shots of nitrous into bone stock Gen 1 350's. Some blow immediately, some make it through a whole season. Time will tell.
got it.
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Old 05-28-2009, 10:00 AM   #123
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It seems to me the crank and rods may be okay, but the pistons, rod bolts, head gaskets, and head bolts may be the biggest questionables. I'll have to look into that...
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Old 05-28-2009, 11:48 AM   #124
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but the pistons, rod bolts, head gaskets, and head bolts may be the biggest questionables.
Provided the car is calibrated correctly and proper fuel (octane) is used, the pistons and related components should be able to handle 10psi of boost. The thing that effects these items is detonation. I am sure LPE knows what they are doing and I don't believe this setup was intended to be something that you'd run on a regular basis. I think it's more of a drag strip set-up or the late night race to shut up that mustang owner .
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Old 05-28-2009, 11:52 AM   #125
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OK - so I re-read the article regarding the KB vs the TVS 2300 (it was actually in 5.0 Mustang; I was wrong) and though the KB was proclaimed to be superior, I don't think I completely agree with all the methods and controls they used in the tests. For one, they went from the TVS to the KB using the same pulley size. However, it turned out the boost differential was something like 14 psi for the TVS and the KB was at like 20 psi! The KB showed A LOT more power, but it was making A LOT more psi. Also, the article stated using KB's intake system for this KB (2.8H was the model number I think) and it seemed like they used the OEM GT500 intake for the TVS - that upgraded intake was good for A LOT more power too. To me, the only real unbiased test was at the end of the article where they spun the blowers to achieve 20 psi of boost and quoted SC RPMs, air temperature, and power drain from the blower. The test concluded the KB operated more efficiently, HOWEVER, the TVS was spinning 18,000 RPMs while the KB was spinning 12,000 RPMs and they didn't disclose whether-or-not they were using the same pulleys for the dyno' tests. If that was the case, it seemed to me the test wasn't representative and equal because the pulley size wasn't made equal (like I mentioned above). I won't go into it more because I don't want to take away from this thread or from Magnusun - I only wanted to address what I posted earlier regarding a comparison of a screw vs the TVS. FWIW - this article may still be on the stands. It's an interesting read, but I think it's biased toward the KB. JMVHO.

You know, I was thinking last night after letting these numbers sink in even more, and realized this is even more power than the ZR1 dyno' I remember reading about a few months ago! And that was before adding boost, LTs, and the rest of the goodies. This is really something to behold, IMO. This is like 100 RWHP more than similarly equipped LS1 Camaros were making less than ten years ago! WOW!
After you posted this, I went and picked up that issue at Border's. You might want to read the article one more time, because from what I gathered, they did a direct comparsion between the TVS and the KB using a LS series GM motor. Bothblowers were configured to push 20lbs of boost. It does not really matter what size pulley you use to get there, as long as both are pushing the same amount of boost. Granted, the KB might have a less restrictive intake tract than the TVS, but that is a design issue. If you really want to compare apples-to-apples then, by all means, let's put a 2.8L twin screw directly up against a 2.8L roots. (When and if they ever make a 2.8L roots).

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Old 05-28-2009, 12:02 PM   #126
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After you posted this, I went and picked up that issue at Border's. You might want to read the article one more time, because from what I gathered, they did a direct comparsion between the TVS and the KB using a LS series GM motor. Both blowers were configured to push 20lbs of boost. It does not really matter what size pulley you use to get there, as long as both are pushing the same about of boost.
No - I'm sorry, you're right. I didn't articulate what I was thinking well. That was about the most objective test and results (to my meager understanding). My biggest problem was them almost (IMO) rationalizing it was a fair comparison to run the same diameter pulley, even though the KB was pushing 20 psi of boost (while the TVS was at like 14 or something). The dyno' test on that LS-engine seemed a lot more compelling in the way and efficiency of the two. However, on the same token, if the TVS isn't designed to run at that level and RPM I don't think it's apples-to-apples necessarily because it's outside of it's operating parameters. Also, though I don't remember, and don't have the mag' with me now, if they were running the upgraded intake system on the KB for that dyno' test, I'm not sure that lends anymore credit toward this being a fair comparison if the TVS had to run through the OEM intake. Honestly though, I don't recall if that was the case, or if that would even effect the results of the temperatures of the boost charge.

Another point I've been pondering: Now, this was a Ford Racing case, right? Magnusun doesn't make it for Ford/Shelby, do they? Regardless, if 5.0 Mustang were to use a case designed by/for Magnusun, would that have changed the results? Are these cases propriatary? Will case design affect these numbers, and if so, than many of my points are probably moot since Lingenfelter and Henessey are using Maggy' cases, right? I know the rotors are all Eatons, but maybe the cases are anothe contributing factor
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