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Old 05-27-2009, 10:31 AM   #1
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75,000 2010 Prius orders...my philosophical quandry

So I just read that the 2010 Prius has 75k orders. The Insight had a huge number of preorders too.

So I HAD been thinking:
* that the press 'just doesn't get it',
* outside of the coastal cities, American's generally don't want these,
* hybrids overly 'complexify' the car and diesels are a better alternative,
* Priuses and Insights are just plain Fugly, and Toyotas in general just lack that certain something that makes cars fun...

Now I'm thinking that maybe it's me that doesn't get it. The Camaro had about 14k orders. Mullaly has openly stated that he is trying to beat Toyota by being more Toyota-like. And that really shows, except for the Mustang (which I like- please don't derail) I find Fords to be extraordinarily bland and lifeless right now. I drive a Fusion for work, my parents have a Free-whatever-crossover thingie, they share the same interior basics. And the Ford concept is working-they're having the most success of the domestics.

It seems that the general population has agreed with their pocketbooks that my view of cars is the exception, not the rule. Any moral support for me today or should I just suck it up with the rest of the sideshow freaks?
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Old 05-27-2009, 10:36 AM   #2
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Who said many of those 75k preorders weren't from California? The amount of Priuses in California is absurd. I could easily see them snapping up 50k just in that state.
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Old 05-27-2009, 10:40 AM   #3
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Who said many of those 75k preorders weren't from California? The amount of Priuses in California is absurd. I could easily see them snapping up 50k just in that state.
They didn't specify, I saw half a dozen or so on my way to work in Idaho. Idaho is definitely a refuge for those that have a more conservative mindset, but I'm seeing more and more of those damned priuses every day. And hybrids based on normal sedans are languishing in lots.
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Old 05-27-2009, 10:53 AM   #4
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that's what i heard recently too. hybrid sales dropped early this year when gas went back under 2$. after a couple years he in Arizona, i don't see That many Prius's. I saw one last year that was pretty hilarious. it had every anti-Bush, far left bumer sticker you can imagine. Probably a dozen of them.
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Old 05-27-2009, 11:06 AM   #5
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that's probably a misleading number since alot of those sales are probably to fleet sales, unlike the Camaro which had no fleet sales that counted as "pre-orders"

the Prius appeals to more people than the Camaro because:
1) it has more doors
2) its overhyped on the TV and other mass media
3) Prius owners dont know that the carbon footprint of the Prius is on par with that of a Hummer H2
4) Toyota is good at hiding the problems with the Prius
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Old 05-27-2009, 11:27 AM   #6
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or you guys just accept that people may possible enjoy other attributes of cars rather than horsepower and 1/4 mile times?
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Old 05-27-2009, 11:27 AM   #7
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Ever heard the saying "Never underestimate the power of large groups of stupid people."

Many years ago I contracted at Delco and worked on some hybrid prototypes. I found the complexity rather overwhelming with all the computer and sensor sytems to control the IC engine, AC induction motor with electronically controlled clutches on either side, the electronics to convert DC battery pack power to 3-phase AC for the motor, regenerative braking, etc., etc., etc. Especially considering how long it took, how many dealer visits, and lots of $$$$$ it took just to finally properly diagnose an intermittant electronics problem with my son's '92 Lumina. If you have problems with your hybrid get rid of it quick, warranty or not!
I find it especially humorous when I see that Apple laptop commercial where they're concerned about a single laptop battery ending up in landfills. What about the 300 pounds of batteries in your Prius?!?!?!?!

Now they're hoping to push plug-in hybrid/electric cars. What happens when all those people come home turn on the AC and plug their car into the power grid? Energy will be burned whether it's in the car or at the power station.

In my view I think on my own and am not so gullible and easy to brainwash as the masses are. You are not alone MrIcky!

Although driving a Prius does have the potential for being very exciting. Probably haven't heard about it since it doesn't fit the mass media's brainwashing agenda. Read this:http://www.seattleweekly.com/2009-04...erfect-prius/1
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Old 05-27-2009, 11:49 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by MLL67RSSS View Post
Ever heard the saying "Never underestimate the power of large groups of stupid people."

Many years ago I contracted at Delco and worked on some hybrid prototypes. I found the complexity rather overwhelming with all the computer and sensor sytems to control the IC engine, AC induction motor with electronically controlled clutches on either side, the electronics to convert DC battery pack power to 3-phase AC for the motor, regenerative braking, etc., etc., etc. Especially considering how long it took, how many dealer visits, and lots of $$$$$ it took just to finally properly diagnose an intermittant electronics problem with my son's '92 Lumina. If you have problems with your hybrid get rid of it quick, warranty or not!
I find it especially humorous when I see that Apple laptop commercial where they're concerned about a single laptop battery ending up in landfills. What about the 300 pounds of batteries in your Prius?!?!?!?!

Now they're hoping to push plug-in hybrid/electric cars. What happens when all those people come home turn on the AC and plug their car into the power grid? Energy will be burned whether it's in the car or at the power station.

In my view I think on my own and am not so gullible and easy to brainwash as the masses are. You are not alone MrIcky!

Although driving a Prius does have the potential for being very exciting. Probably haven't heard about it since it doesn't fit the mass media's brainwashing agenda. Read this:http://www.seattleweekly.com/2009-04...erfect-prius/1
I don't know how in the world you can complain about the amount of computer systems in a hybrid. Have you looked at what computers control in regular cars? A LOT. That's what happens as the world moves on.

I don't know why you'd complain about regenerative braking. Pretty neat stuff, I think.
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Old 05-27-2009, 11:51 AM   #9
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If this was about the volt I have a feeling no one would be saying how dumb all 75k of those people are.
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Old 05-27-2009, 11:55 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by MLL67RSSS View Post
Ever heard the saying "Never underestimate the power of large groups of stupid people."

Many years ago I contracted at Delco and worked on some hybrid prototypes. I found the complexity rather overwhelming with all the computer and sensor sytems to control the IC engine, AC induction motor with electronically controlled clutches on either side, the electronics to convert DC battery pack power to 3-phase AC for the motor, regenerative braking, etc., etc., etc. Especially considering how long it took, how many dealer visits, and lots of $$$$$ it took just to finally properly diagnose an intermittant electronics problem with my son's '92 Lumina. If you have problems with your hybrid get rid of it quick, warranty or not!
I find it especially humorous when I see that Apple laptop commercial where they're concerned about a single laptop battery ending up in landfills. What about the 300 pounds of batteries in your Prius?!?!?!?!

Now they're hoping to push plug-in hybrid/electric cars. What happens when all those people come home turn on the AC and plug their car into the power grid? Energy will be burned whether it's in the car or at the power station.

In my view I think on my own and am not so gullible and easy to brainwash as the masses are. You are not alone MrIcky!

Although driving a Prius does have the potential for being very exciting. Probably haven't heard about it since it doesn't fit the mass media's brainwashing agenda. Read this:http://www.seattleweekly.com/2009-04...erfect-prius/1

Sounds to me like your anti-technology, i would prescribe the amish country for you if you hate seeing things advance in today's world and they are too complicated for you. carefull now we dont want the computer to brainwash you
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Old 05-27-2009, 12:07 PM   #11
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fugliest cars ever

prius and insight = fail imo
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Old 05-27-2009, 12:14 PM   #12
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Anti-technology? Nothing of the sort. That's how a base V6 Camaro makes 304 HP and gets 29MPG.

It's pretty simple actually. Roughly four times more computers system complexity and sensors means four times the chances of failure, and possibly four times the number of dealer visits before an intermittant electronic problem can finally be properly diagnosed and fixed. All for a car that has the carbon footprint of a H2 and about the same MPG as a simple Jetta diesel. But you are entitled to your own opinion of course.

BTW, I helped build GM hybrid prototypes, helped hook up all their various computer systems, was there when they tried to get them all to communicate to each other, helped try to isolate all the electronic noise from the inverter from scrambling all the computers, etc. Trust me their electronics are far more numerous and complex than any new non-hybrid vehicle. But I guess I must know nothing about modern vehicle electronics systems.

P.S. There certainly are a lot of them around Indy. I notice them quite often when I'm trying to get around their slow-ass hypermiling rolling roadblocks. So maybe I'm just prejudiced!

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Old 05-27-2009, 12:15 PM   #13
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or you guys just accept that people may possible enjoy other attributes of cars rather than horsepower and 1/4 mile times?
Some people just don't care what they drive. But that's not who buys a Prius.

The Prius makes a statement. To me it says "I'm a smug douchebag who really doesn't do his research" but to the people that buy them it says "I'm saving the planet". Hybrids that look normal do not sell as well as hybrids that look like hybrids. People want to show off that they're being green. The South Park episode about hybrid smug was spot on.

The Prius is a fad that will pass one day, hopefully sooner rather than later.
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Old 05-27-2009, 12:16 PM   #14
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I agree that there's more to cars than 1/4 miles. However I can walk onto just about any car lot and get a regular looking hybrid at discount, we're talking 75k orders so they'll be close to MSRP. The lots are littered with good practical cars right now. You can save enough money off MSRP to get a bigger car and be money ahead on gas for several years vs the Prius.

I HAD been thinking that you buy a Prius to either: make a statement and stand in solidarity with Cameron Diaz for the rights of the earth mother! or you're super-anal-frugal about saving gas (I know people like this-hypermilers, etc- it's almost an addiction). Now I'm thinking that Prius/Insights must be the new mainstream.

But with that many orders of Prius' and Insights and the last election cycle, etc (that's not political-I'm just saying that the current leadership does not necessarily reflect my way of thinking)...I am starting to feel like maybe I'm 'out of touch'. I'm not going so far as to say the mainstream is right, but I have to think that I'm no longer part of the mainstream.

I'm not even against normal looking hybrids- but Prius's are such a statement. Plus I think the 2.0 VW diesel is a better car then the 2009 Prius was (haven't been in a 2010). And why not diesel hybrids if automakers are serious- you'd certainly get better results for economy.
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Old 05-27-2009, 12:16 PM   #15
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Anti-technology? Nothing of the sort. That's how a base V6 Camaro makes 304 HP and gets 29MPG.

It's pretty simple actually. Roughly four times more computers and sensors means four times the chances of failure, and possibly four times the number of dealer visits before an intermittant electronic problem can finally be properly diagnosed and fixed. All for a car that has the carbon footprint of a H2 and about the same MPG as a simple Jetta diesel. But you are entitled to your own opinion of course.
and you to yours sir, the sales speak for them selves, it's a popular little car and i cant knock it. i dont like it dont find it nice or cool but you cant argue with the numbers and this is the car business, if it sells it SELLS. props to the prius like any other car doing well in this industry no matter what people think.
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Old 05-27-2009, 12:31 PM   #16
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Some people just don't care what they drive. But that's not who buys a Prius.

The Prius makes a statement. To me it says "I'm a smug douchebag who really doesn't do his research" but to the people that buy them it says "I'm saving the planet". Hybrids that look normal do not sell as well as hybrids that look like hybrids. People want to show off that they're being green. The South Park episode about hybrid smug was spot on.

The Prius is a fad that will pass one day, hopefully sooner rather than later.
This is so true! There are other Hybrids out there that don't move like the prius because they don't scream "IM GREEN" Its the trendy cool thing to do right now.

Thats the general public's feeling, that and that cars are just appliances, where we get the "what do you need all that horsepower for?" arguement.

PS the wost of this is even now with Gas prices down, you can sell a used Prius or Insight for almost what you paid for it, and in fact some dealers get OVER original MSRP for USED cars!
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Old 05-27-2009, 12:32 PM   #17
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Some people just don't care what they drive. But that's not who buys a Prius.

The Prius makes a statement. To me it says "I'm a smug douchebag who really doesn't do his research" but to the people that buy them it says "I'm saving the planet". Hybrids that look normal do not sell as well as hybrids that look like hybrids. People want to show off that they're being green. The South Park episode about hybrid smug was spot on.

The Prius is a fad that will pass one day, hopefully sooner rather than later.
So if everyone that owns a Prius is smug does that mean every Camaro owner has a mullet? Or do stereotypes only work one way?
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Old 05-27-2009, 12:38 PM   #18
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Buy a Prius and stop global warming. LOL Some people actually believe this BS. It's no more than a natural environmental change cycling from warmer to colder that's been happening since the begining of time. I remember in the 70's they were screaming Global Cooling. They said it was brought on by the CFC's in aerosol cans. We got rid of many aerosols and replaced them with pumps. Now we have global warming. I say bring back the CFC's in aerosols.LOL Maybe it will average out. I bet some people would actually believe that. By the way, the polar caps on Mars are also melting. I haven't seen any Hummers driving around there. Do we really think that we as human beings are more powerful than the sun?
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Old 05-27-2009, 12:43 PM   #19
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He didn't say they were smug, he said that the Prius makes a statement. The Camaro makes a statement too. To those of us that want one, it says a lot about performance, history, and passion. To many that don't want one, it says "Oh, look. There's some d-bag in a pointless gas-guzzler from a horrible company that shouldn't even be allowed to make cars, because they're not Toyota."

Either way, it makes different statements to different people, and THAT was his point. He wasn't stereotyping, he was saying that it makes a bold statement, and the whole "people want to show off that they're being green" bit is really very true. There are TONS of articles about that. People buy the Prius because it's ugly as sin, and very obviously a hybrid.
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Old 05-27-2009, 12:45 PM   #20
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So if everyone that owns a Prius is smug does that mean every Camaro owner has a mullet? Or do stereotypes only work one way?
I'm not big on the stereotypes- but yes I believe in this case some stereotyping fits. The reason for this is that Prius outsell other hybrids by a substantial amount specifically because they look like hybrids. So the conclusion is that people are buying Priuses because they want to do their part to 'save the Earth' (edit: AND they want people to know it). I'm not sure if that makes them smug-but the path from point a to point b is pretty straight in this case. Meanwhile, hairstyles inspired by MacGyver come and go.
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Old 05-27-2009, 12:47 PM   #21
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Some people just don't care what they drive. But that's not who buys a Prius.

The Prius makes a statement. To me it says "I'm a smug douchebag who really doesn't do his research" but to the people that buy them it says "I'm saving the planet". Hybrids that look normal do not sell as well as hybrids that look like hybrids. People want to show off that they're being green. The South Park episode about hybrid smug was spot on.

The Prius is a fad that will pass one day, hopefully sooner rather than later.
Uhhh...What he said! +1000.
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Old 05-27-2009, 12:51 PM   #22
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I'm not big on the stereotypes- but yes I believe in this case some stereotyping fits. The reason for this is that Prius outsell other hybrids by a substantial amount specifically because they look like hybrids. So the conclusion is that people are buying Priuses because they want to do their part to 'save the Earth' (edit: AND they want people to know it). I'm not sure if that makes them smug-but the path from point a to point b is pretty straight in this case. Meanwhile, hairstyles inspired by MacGyver come and go.
so they are smug because they want people to know something or to get attention, funny because i see almost everyone on this board talking about all the attention they are getting and feeling like celebrities in their new camaros as others say they can't wait to get the same attention and one guy causing an accident, but they arent smug like you say are they?
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Old 05-27-2009, 12:52 PM   #23
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So if everyone that owns a Prius is smug does that mean every Camaro owner has a mullet? Or do stereotypes only work one way?
Now that you mention it I have yet to meet a Prius owner that wasn't at least a little smug. I myself just think they're just a little midguided and not aware of the true facts, but their intentions are good. Admittedly I myself have never been, and never ever will be considered "mainstream". Even in highschool if the trend was to do one thing I would most likely do just the opposite just to assert my independence. So that may help explain my views.
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Old 05-27-2009, 12:56 PM   #24
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I guess my problem stems from the fact that where i used to live i was very close to a town that was known to have many Camaro's with mismatched body panels and some did have the bumber sticker "Ass, Gas, or Grass nobody rides for free" or "Ain't Skeered". So therefore when i mentioned that i had a Camaro many people thought i was trashy so it works both ways. Most were astonished that my Camaro was all one color.
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Old 05-27-2009, 01:00 PM   #25
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So if everyone that owns a Prius is smug does that mean every Camaro owner has a mullet? Or do stereotypes only work one way?
I'm not saying that *everyone* that drives a prius is smug but a large portion are.

And the mullet stereotype isn't quite the same. The smugness is the reason people buy Priuses while you can't say a mullet causes people to buy Camaros. If you want to make a comparison stereotype about Camaro buyers it would have to be that they're universally awesome which is pretty much true across the board.


No, really I'd say that buyers of the Camaro SS are more worried about the driving experience than they are about being practical and environmentally friendly. Shoot, even if you said that all Camaro buyers were gun toting redneck bible thumpers it would be more accurate than the mullet reference. Even most rednecks have realized that mullets went out of style long ago.
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