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Old 09-17-2012, 12:56 PM   #1
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Which was the badder car historically? The Z/28 or the ZL1?

I'm a young car enthusiast and my favorite has always been the 1970 454 Chevelle SS. I knew nothing of the ZL1 until I started seeing magazine articles right before I bought mine. I know that the ZL1 was produced in 1969 only, but how did it compare to the Z/28s of its time and even the more recent models?
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Old 09-17-2012, 01:00 PM   #2
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ZL1 hands down! The ZL1 was a very limited (I want to say only 69 were made?) production aluminum big block that made huge power. It was said that a said of headers would get it into the 600+ horsepower range. Kinda like today huh? The Z28s of the day were generally smaller motors made for trans am racing or circle tracking racing. Smaller, higher revving motors.
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Old 09-17-2012, 01:09 PM   #3
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Agreed!! ZL1 takes the cake! Although there are great Z28 fans out there! Both were great cars, built for a specific purpose!! Kinda like today's ZL1's vs GT500's! Fans of both will always be out there to buy which ever car it is that they want!
With that being said, if GM decides to bring back the Z28 I don't think it will have more power than the ZL1! However, GM has surprised us before! I just can't see how they would make a Z28 have more power than the Legendary ZL1!
With the next Gen coming out in the next year or two, what I would like to see is the T-Tops make a return! I know I had a blast with my '02 SLP SS with T-Tops!!
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Old 09-17-2012, 01:13 PM   #4
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To me they are apples and oranges. the cars were built for different purposes.

The ZL1 was more limited in terms of production and was quicker in a strait line.

the original 1967 Z28 was fairly limited prodcution but by 1969 they built like 20k that year.

the origial DZ302 was a cool motor for the day and had class limitations applied to it.

everyone should rather own a original ZL1 though. they are just rare and hence worth way more.

most people really don't know the whole story behind each car though. I like the story behind the Z28 because chevy really did not back the trans am racing as a corporation. Yet a group of people went out and won with that car convincingly. The support all but died and that is when you see the boss and the AMX come in and have much better success.
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Old 09-17-2012, 01:53 PM   #5
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Just like many arguments here, that is an emotional call. They are very different cars with different purpose. The Z/28 had a high revving 302 (rumored at over 500 HP) built with suspension etc. specifically for Trans Am racing and the ZL1 was the top dog drag racing car of the day. Setup completely different!

I like the Z28 myself and hoping that a new Z28 will have a 427 (small block) NA engine with all kinds of track suspension, brakes, coolers and weight balance.
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Old 09-17-2012, 01:59 PM   #6
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The Penske/Donohue racing team took the Z/28 into the winner's circle and racing glory in the Trans-Am series so historically speaking the Z/28 would be considered 'badder" in the area of fame and accomplishment. The ZL1 had more horsepower so if that's your measure of "badder" then it was the badder of the two.
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Old 09-17-2012, 02:17 PM   #7
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The 1969 9560 COPO Camaro with the ZL1 engine and the 1967 to 1969 Z28 Camaros were two very different vehicles built for different purposes.

In the 1960s the ZL1 was an all aluminum Mark IV 427 CID big block racing engine that was designed for and used in the Can-Am racing series. In 1969 the ZL1 engine was put into the 396 SS (L78) based 9560 COPO Camaro of which 50 were built at the request of Fred Gibb (69 9560 COPO Camaros were eventually built) to compete in AHRA events. The ZL1 engine was also avialable as an option in the 1969 Corvette.

The Z28 (RPO Z28) was a trim level designation of the Camaro, just as the SS (RPO Z27) was a trim level designation for the Camaro. The Z28 was built specifically to compete in the Trans-Am racing class created by the SCCA in 1966, which at the time had a 305 cubic inch engine displacement limit. Accordingly, the Z28 was equipped with a high revving solid lifter (30-30 cam) 302 CID engine, which was created by putting a 283 crank in a 327 block. The Z28 won the Trans-Am championship in both 1968 and 1969.
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Old 09-17-2012, 02:27 PM   #8
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If you go back to the official announcement of the Gen-5 ZL1, and follow-up posts here, darned few non-hard core enthusiasts even knew about the "original" ZL1. Built specifically for drag racing. 50 ordered by Fred Gibb/Dick Harrell (through Vince Piggins @ Chevrolet aka Mr. COPO), with 19 subsequent orders from others.

Curiously, you could order a ZL1 with essentially Z/28 suspension and tires...the very rare "Double COPO" cars, of which only two were built. With a similar Curb Weight to a Z/28, these cars were capable handlers (for their time) but, with all that power, would have annihilated their 70-series tires in as-delivered form.

Lots of COPO - ZL1 info here: http://www.camaros.org/copo.shtml

Z/28? Even non-Camaro folks know about those...
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Old 09-17-2012, 03:12 PM   #9
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As mentioned above, the 69 ZL-1 was the baddest camaro you could get back in the day.These were all aluminum 427 c.i. engines. They were designed for drag racing.I think they were rated at 450 horsepower. ZL-1's were grossly underrated for insurance purposes some believe the horse power was closer to 600 horsepower. There were only 69 produced only 2/3 rds are still in existence. I think out of the remaining ones only 2 or 3 still have their original engines (numbers matching) these cars are worth anywhere between 500,000 to 1 million dollars. I seen one with its original engine this summer.

The z-28's were a whole different animal. They were designed for Trans Am racing in the 60's. They were supposed to have a special race inspired suspension.In order to participate in the Trans Am series the manufactures had to produce a car within the guidelines of the series. I think they had to produce at lease 500 cars to the public to qualify. I think the first year (67) there were 700 Z-28's produced In the Trans Am series the engines could not be bigger than 302 c.i. hence the 302 in all first gen Camaros.
There were some options that are very desirable that you could get in the first gens. One was a cross ram intake manifold that had two carbs on it. The carbs were offset and not in line. I have also seen a 69 Z-28 with a hemi head all aluminum 302 c.i. engine.It was either one of one or one of three I am not sure. That was the top of the line Z-28. Hope this info helps answer your questions.
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Old 09-17-2012, 03:27 PM   #10
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As mentioned above, the 69 ZL-1 was the baddest camaro you could get back in the day.These were all aluminum 427 c.i. engines. They were designed for drag racing.I think they were rated at 450 horsepower. ZL-1's were grossly underrated for insurance purposes some believe the horse power was closer to 600 horsepower. There were only 69 produced only 2/3 rds are still in existence. I think out of the remaining ones only 2 or 3 still have their original engines (numbers matching) these cars are worth anywhere between 500,000 to 1 million dollars. I seen one with its original engine this summer.

The z-28's were a whole different animal. They were designed for Trans Am racing in the 60's. They were supposed to have a special race inspired suspension.In order to participate in the Trans Am series the manufactures had to produce a car within the guidelines of the series. I think they had to produce at lease 500 cars to the public to qualify. I think the first year (67) there were 700 Z-28's produced In the Trans Am series the engines could not be bigger than 302 c.i. hence the 302 in all first gen Camaros.
There were some options that are very desirable that you could get in the first gens. One was a cross ram intake manifold that had two carbs on it. The carbs were offset and not in line. I have also seen a 69 Z-28 with a hemi head all aluminum 302 c.i. engine.It was either one of one or one of three I am not sure. That was the top of the line Z-28. Hope this info helps answer your questions.

In 1967 I believe they produced 602 Z28s. In reality the 302 produced high 300's - 400 HP, but could be tweaked to 450+ with not too much dificulty.

"I have also seen a 69 Z-28 with a hemi head all aluminum 302 c.i. engine.It was either one of one or one of three I am not sure. That was the top of the line Z-28." I've never heard of this???
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Old 09-17-2012, 03:38 PM   #11
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"I have also seen a 69 Z-28 with a hemi head all aluminum 302 c.i. engine.It was either one of one or one of three I am not sure. That was the top of the line Z-28." I've never heard of this???
A lil "something" created by Smokey Yunick iirc...NOT an RPO-available engine combo...

EDIT: Try this: http://www.guinns-engineering.com/Todd%20Hemi%20302.htm
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Old 09-17-2012, 03:47 PM   #12
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I too doubt the Z28 will have more hp than the ZL1. It won't be supercharged like the Zl1. I hope it will have the LS7 from the Z06 and MRC suspension from the ZL1. That would be the ultimate Camaro for me. I hope GM hurries up and announces when they estimate to build them and give us some specs. If this happens before I get a ZL1, I will wait for it.
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Old 09-17-2012, 04:08 PM   #13
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A lil "something" created by Smokey Yunick iirc...NOT an RPO-available engine combo...

EDIT: Try this: http://www.guinns-engineering.com/Todd%20Hemi%20302.htm
Thanks I'll check it out.
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Old 09-17-2012, 04:13 PM   #14
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http://musclecars.howstuffworks.com/...camaro-zl1.htm

http://nw*************ion.tripod.com/id9.html

1969 ZL1
The cars began as 396-cid/375-bhp Super Sports with the F4l suspension. Engine and SS trim were deleted, and the cars were equipped essentially as other 427 COPO Camaros, with cowl-induction hood, front disc brakes, a choice of heavy-duty four-speeds or Turbo Hydra-matic, and a 4:10.1 Posi in the strongest axle Chevy could muster. But instead of the iron-block and head L72 427, these Camaros got a 427 called the ZL1.
©2007 Publications International, Ltd. The ZL1's all-aluminum 427 was competition-proven in Can-Am racing. It weighed a mere 500 pounds -- and produced more than 500 bhp.


It was similar in design to the most-potent iteration of the aluminum-head L88, but it was the first production Chevy engine to also have an aluminum block. It shared the L88's 430-bhp factory rating, but actually had over 500 bhp -- making it likely the most powerful engine Chevy ever offered to the public. And it weighed just 500 pounds -- about the same as Chevy's 327-cid V-8.

The entire car carried the full 5-year/50,000-mile warranty and was fully street-legal. With the factory's stock dual exhausts and tires, it turned low 13s; headers, slicks, and tuning got it into the 11.6s at 122 mph. Chevy never built a quicker production car.

All this came at a price: $4,160 for the ZL1 engine alone, pushing the car's sticker to a stratospheric $7,200. Chevy needed to build 50 to satisfy the NHRA, and actually built 69. About 20 ZL1s went into organized drag racing, turning low 10s to set several Super Stock records. Well-heeled individuals bought others, but the high price took a toll: At least 12 engines were removed and sold separately, and about 30 unsold cars were returned to Chevy. It took until the early '70s to sell them off.
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Old 09-17-2012, 04:20 PM   #15
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............and if memory serves me correctly; there were only 12 examples of the ZL1 Corvettes produced...........read that somewhere!
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Old 09-17-2012, 06:20 PM   #16
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The 1969 ZL-1 (with a hyphen) was the baddest of the bad when it came to the Camaro.

It's also the most exclusive, and as such, the most desireable to the collector market.
This car was built for the specific purpose of drag racing, being the lightest of the big block , high horsepower cars. It's this very reason that I wished GM would have left that nameplate alone when it created the new ZL1 model.
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Old 09-17-2012, 06:21 PM   #17
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............and if memory serves me correctly; there were only 12 examples of the ZL1 Corvettes produced...........read that somewhere!
You're over by 10...actual documented number is TWO. Which was in fact THE most expensive 1969 Chevrolet you could buy, by $1000+ over the COPO 9560 Camaro (aka "ZL1", the engine's RPO code) at as-equipped "Base" price.

Page 5 of this pdf file: http://www.gmheritagecenter.com/gm-h...t-Corvette.pdf

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Old 09-17-2012, 06:32 PM   #18
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What's a Z/28?
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Old 09-17-2012, 06:47 PM   #19
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What's a Z/28?
There was a time, in the not too distant past, that this would have blasphemous to say on a Camaro-centric community.

How times have changed
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Old 09-17-2012, 07:51 PM   #20
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You're over by 10...actual documented number is TWO. Which was in fact THE most expensive 1969 Chevrolet you could buy, by $1000+ over the COPO 9560 Camaro (aka "ZL1", the engine's RPO code) at as-equipped "Base" price.

Page 5 of this pdf file: http://www.gmheritagecenter.com/gm-h...t-Corvette.pdf
Memory tends to slip a little for men past 40.........LOL!
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Old 09-17-2012, 08:16 PM   #21
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You're over by 10...actual documented number is TWO. Which was in fact THE most expensive 1969 Chevrolet you could buy, by $1000+ over the COPO 9560 Camaro (aka "ZL1", the engine's RPO code) at as-equipped "Base" price.

Page 5 of this pdf file: http://www.gmheritagecenter.com/gm-h...t-Corvette.pdf
Yeah I remembered only 2. I always wondered why only 2? Are they still around, and what are they worth today? $$$$$$$
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Old 09-17-2012, 09:17 PM   #22
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Yeah I remembered only 2. I always wondered why only 2? Are they still around, and what are they worth today? $$$$$$$
I'm pretty sure there is at least one left and it must be worth a couple million
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Old 09-18-2012, 02:54 AM   #23
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What's a Z/28?
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Originally Posted by FNBADAZ06 View Post
There was a time, in the not too distant past, that this would have blasphemous to say on a Camaro-centric community.

How times have changed
SSOOCH is being comical, he's been a member on this forum for a long time and is quite familiar with what a Z/28 is
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Old 09-18-2012, 03:11 AM   #24
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Old 09-18-2012, 09:20 AM   #25
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Yeah I remembered only 2. I always wondered why only 2? Are they still around, and what are they worth today? $$$$$$$
The Yellow one, the one originally driven by the Corvette plant engineer and ultimately confiscated by the Feds about 1990 and auctioned off, is owned by and on display at Roger's Corvette Center in Maitland FL. (NE of Orlando).

http://www.rogerscorvette.com/inv/sp...9ZL1/index.htm

The "other" is apparently this one: http://corvettes-musclecars.com/gall...L-1+427-430HP/
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