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Old 10-04-2012, 06:15 PM   #26
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Do you think if we keep our 1LE 's are stock, the air bags won't go off on the track?. I hope not because i plan to push the car to the limit on the track.( of course with it in competition mode)
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Old 10-04-2012, 06:45 PM   #27
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Autocross would be more likely to set it off versus a road course. Its the rapid and violent changes in direction that should cause it. The amount of tire it has leads me to believe its certainly possible stock under the right conditions.
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Old 10-04-2012, 06:46 PM   #28
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Do you think if we keep our 1LE 's are stock, the air bags won't go off on the track?. I hope not because i plan to push the car to the limit on the track.( of course with it in competition mode)
You can only hope GM programmed a higher tolerance for the yaw sensor. Otherwise you 1LE guys are screwed.

And understand this, your dealer has no decision or influence on whether or not this type of problem is fixed under warranty. All they can do is offer a place for GM's representative (my case was Raytheon) to come and examine the car. So anyone who thinks if this happens to them and your dealer will take care of you, think again. GM is not going to play nice when they are asked to pay out. The customer rep I dealt with was reading from a script, repeated the same exact words when I asked to elaborate on what they determined the cause was. I knew when I asked for a copy of the report and was told to get a subpoena pursuing this was futile.
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Old 10-04-2012, 07:06 PM   #29
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Autocross would be more likely to set it off versus a road course. Its the rapid and violent changes in direction that should cause it. The amount of tire it has leads me to believe its certainly possible stock under the right conditions.
Have you never raced your car on a track? I run on European style tracks so they consist of a lot of shorter straights and lots of curves. You go balls out in the straights and brake hard short of locking them up before the turns. That's what got me I believe. I was probably 90+mph before the curve, hit the apex around 50 and WOT when she blew. The rapid deceleration combined with a fast turn probably made the sensor go nuts. But if you want to be competitive it's the way you need to drive. I attended two driving schools this year and my driving style is based on what I was taught. I have produced better times that most of the Mustangs, Z06s, and a ZL1 that I've gone up against.

I have never smoked my tires or slid my car around on the track like that guy did it the video. That wasn't autocross, that was stupid.
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Old 10-04-2012, 07:45 PM   #30
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1st Mistake was admitting to being at the track. Should have towed it home cleaned off the grass and called your insurance company...
It would be a safe bet that the sensitivity levels are set differently on ZL-1s and 1LE's
Wasn't going to lie. Onstar knew exactly where I was at. And fact is your insurance won't pay out if there was no visible damage, ie. you didn't get into an accident or hit something. They'll say it's GM's problem or your bad driving caused it, and then GM will say exactly what they said to me. I know this to be the case because that's what happened to the guy at the dealership before me with a Suburban. He lied and said he hit a pothole at 40. Computer said he was doing over 70, and didn't happen like he said. His insurance refused to pay the $8K to fix it.

A safe bet? For $4K I wouldn't be willing to take that bet. I would want GM to state it in writing that driving the 1LE or ZL1 in this manner on a track won't cause air bags to go off. But I'll make you a bet they will never say that.
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Old 10-04-2012, 08:10 PM   #31
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Have you never raced your car on a track?
Plenty. And as far as I know its the rapid left/right transitions that cause the issue. I haven't heard of hard braking and a turn causing issues before until you. I'm very smooth on road courses and wouldn't call any turns violent. Controlled and smooth is faster. Autocross is more violent in its transitions if its a tight setup and not designed for the old corvette guys. LOL.
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Old 10-04-2012, 08:33 PM   #32
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I would look into the warranty clsim further. Law states the dealer has to uphold e warranty uless they can prove you caused the failure.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration dtRted an investigation of Jeep Liberty SUVs built between 2002 and 2003 for an issue regarding the premature deployment of airbags. NHTSA said that they've received 7 complaints regarding airbags deploying without a crash, with 5 of these incidents having caused injuries. 387,356 vehicles are said to be affected by the issue.

After searching this issue it is not an isolated incident. I would contact NHTSA.
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Old 10-04-2012, 08:54 PM   #33
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No, already went this route with GM Customer Service. They are covering their asses and divulging nothing of what caused it. They have an engineering report on the data gathered from the car, but refuse to let me see it unless I subpoena it. Their standard answer is the car thought a rollover was eminent and the air bags deployed. I'm sure if I got a lawyer and spend $$$ I might get an answer. But the end result would likely still be a refusal to pay up. So cutting my losses and paying for it myself



I stopped by the dealer today to get the ball rolling on repair. I asked the service rep if there is a way to disable the system while using the car on the track. He talked with the Corvette expert who also works on the Camaros and told me there is. Of course, it will be unofficial and he'll deny they ever said anything. Obviously they are not going to tell people how to do this and have some idiot drive on the street with it disabled and get into an accident.

My whole point in starting this thread is to warn you guys about driving the Camaro on the track. While GM may be advertising the 1LE as a track car, the definition of what a track car is in their eyes needs to be clarified. I know how aggressive I drive and how aggressive the Ford guys I drove with are. They don't seem to have any problems. It's not like I was drifting my car or hit something, or went off the track when this happened. I learned a lesson the hard way and that's the Camaro SS is not a track car for even occasional road course. The air bag system on the Camaro is like running a foot race with a rope tied around your ankles. If you run too fast, you're gonna trip.
I don't think I agree on GM not covering it under warranty. Airbags deploying to a non-crash situation sounds a bit odd to me.
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Old 10-04-2012, 09:38 PM   #34
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1st Mistake was admitting to being at the track. Should have towed it home cleaned off the grass and called your insurance company...
It would be a safe bet that the sensitivity levels are set differently on ZL-1s and 1LE's

A guy tried that lie after totalling his new Z06 at our local drag strip. Said he wrecked on a road near his house. Initially, insurance paid out. After further investigation the invetigator used Onstar to determine the wreck was at the drag strip. He was later convicted of insurance fraud and went to prison.
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Old 10-04-2012, 09:46 PM   #35
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Hey Bannonm, you have a beautiful car. What tires and suspension set up were you using to create so many G's in the corner?
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:39 AM   #36
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Hey Bannonm, you have a beautiful car. What tires and suspension set up were you using to create so many G's in the corner?
Thanks. I have Pedders XAs and front control arm bushings, Pfadt solid subframe bushings, rear control arms, racing sways. For the wheels I run TSW Nurburgrings 20x10 with Michellin Pilot Super Sports in a 285/35-20 all around. The tires/wheels were the last mod and made even more of an improvement in handling. Also between the shorter tires and coilovers, I'm almost 1-1/2" lower than stock.
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Old 10-07-2012, 07:50 PM   #37
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I think if this happens then just go b%$%lls to the wall and gut the SS including airbags and roll cage here we come. Honestly Roll cages offer better protection anyway. Nice to hear you ate some Z06s, stangs and other cars on track so then maybe it is worth it to make this your somewhat all out track car and screw the air bag replacement. I still find it amazing that many autocrossers didn't have this issue especially the guy form TORQ who drives his car very hard.

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Old 10-09-2012, 09:00 PM   #38
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A guy tried that lie after totalling his new Z06 at our local drag strip. Said he wrecked on a road near his house. Initially, insurance paid out. After further investigation the invetigator used Onstar to determine the wreck was at the drag strip. He was later convicted of insurance fraud and went to prison.
Note to all do not lie about your accidental loss when owning a GM car with onstar you will loose.
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Old 10-09-2012, 10:29 PM   #39
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OP, thanks for the heads up. Just paid off my 2010 SS loan and was considering auto-crossing with the Porsche folks at work. Would never hear the end of it if the same thing happened to me. Will do more research before considering a day at the track. Good luck to you on the repairs!

BTW, I replied to one of your other posts on this same topic where I found interesting similarities with two drifting Camaro videos and the actions that led right up to the POP! I am not suggesting this is what happened in your case, but I put it out there for folks to take heed; particularly drifters.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=254445
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:48 PM   #40
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Just wanted to say I find this thread very interesting and I appreciate OP putting this info out there.

Your insurance though would not cover it, did you try or were not interested? Some national insurance carriers won't cover damage incurred during timed events.

I've seen a number of Camaro and to a lesser extent CTS-V vids of cars having air bags going off while auto-crossing.
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:00 PM   #41
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so there is a "competition" mode in the ZL1 and 1LE? why wouldn't that mode disable the airbags?
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Old 10-10-2012, 01:41 PM   #42
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so there is a "competition" mode in the ZL1 and 1LE? why wouldn't that mode disable the airbags?
I don't think the GM lawyers would ever allow that. Best case is that GM realizes that the sensors on the earlier C5 models are too sensative and fixes them in the newer models. Otherwise it is up to owners to figure out how to disable the bags themselves.
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Old 10-10-2012, 02:25 PM   #43
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I think that any one suggesting to disable or otherwise mess with air bags is irresponsible. They only case airbags should be messed with is they are being removed for a competition only car that has roll bar and seat with 5 point seat installed. It would be horrible to find that a person disabled air bags crashed badly and was hurt or killed due to air bags not deploying, not to mention many medical insurance claims could potentially be denied once they found out air bags were disabled. This issue should be pursued to get GM to answer as looks like sensors and accelerometers are faulty, as they should only go off if sensor detects impact or pending roll over.
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Old 10-10-2012, 02:50 PM   #44
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I think that any one suggesting to disable or otherwise mess with air bags is irresponsible. They only case airbags should be messed with is they are being removed for a competition only car that has roll bar and seat with 5 point seat installed. It would be horrible to find that a person disabled air bags crashed badly and was hurt or killed due to air bags not deploying, not to mention many medical insurance claims could potentially be denied once they found out air bags were disabled. This issue should be pursued to get GM to answer as looks like sensors and accelerometers are faulty, as they should only go off if sensor detects impact or pending roll over.
Hmmm.

Bannonm is basically sharing that he has a car that he races once in a while that had the side air bags go off at an event. I think if I was another racer like him, I'd be pretty concerned.

I drag race all the time, like every month. I've had some pretty quick stuff in the past too low 9's etc. If I thought for a second that the airbags would go off running the car once in a while, I'd look at how to disable them for that event.

Your advice really does not help the weekend occasional racer at all.

I'm aware of about like 5 instances where air bags have gone off in late model GM cars during autocross and road racing. That's a lot in two years, because I'm not aware of any in 15 years of racing 4th gens.

Respectfully,

John
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Old 10-10-2012, 04:02 PM   #45
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I think that any one suggesting to disable or otherwise mess with air bags is irresponsible. They only case airbags should be messed with is they are being removed for a competition only car that has roll bar and seat with 5 point seat installed. It would be horrible to find that a person disabled air bags crashed badly and was hurt or killed due to air bags not deploying, not to mention many medical insurance claims could potentially be denied once they found out air bags were disabled. This issue should be pursued to get GM to answer as looks like sensors and accelerometers are faulty, as they should only go off if sensor detects impact or pending roll over.
You probably have to have road course experience to understand this, but are you aware that an inadvertent deployment on track can CAUSE an accident?

Imagine you're doing something that requires 100% concentration and leaves NO room for error. Then imagine something unexpectedly blowing up in your face, and maybe blowing your hands off of the steering wheel. The OP in this case went off track into the grass, but he could just as easily could have had a serious incident.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:10 PM   #46
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You probably have to have road course experience to understand this, but are you aware that an inadvertent deployment on track can CAUSE an accident?

Imagine you're doing something that requires 100% concentration and leaves NO room for error. Then imagine something unexpectedly blowing up in your face, and maybe blowing your hands off of the steering wheel. The OP in this case went off track into the grass, but he could just as easily could have had a serious incident.
I totally understand the issue and the question. My point is that airbags potentially has an issue in sensors and GM should address it. I don't think disabling is the correct solution as there are way to many factors involved and liability as well. I think that GM should cover this and should be pushed further since no sensors were impacted. I would think that the data onboard would support what happened.

As for road course experience I do fully understand the dynamics on this aspect, as I have thousands of miles and hundreds of laps road racing but some what different as I raced motorcycles for many years. In the motorcycle RRing community we had a similar situation just not as dramatic or imo as dangerous as airbags going off. All modern street motorcycles with fuel injection have a tip over sensor that shuts off the engine when the bike falls over. The problem was many racers get really fricken low and the sensor thought it tipped over and cut the fuel which when leaned over doing 120- 180 MPH does not do well and usually ends in a high side and launching the rider to the moon, the reentry is not good and usually ends up in a ride to local hospital. Point being in this case many riders and teams unplugged the tip over sensor to eliminate the issue but sometimes the trade off was when a bike crashed it usually caught fire. That's when you hope the corner workers are fast with the fire extinguisher. In this case I think the trade off was much more beneficial and if you toasted the bike then not as bad on the wallet as bike was $10-20k versus a $30-60k car.
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Old 10-10-2012, 06:37 PM   #47
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Hmmm.
Bannonm is basically sharing that he has a car that he races once in a while that had the side air bags go off at an event. I think if I was another racer like him, I'd be pretty concerned.
Yeah John, I am concerned to the point of wondering if I will take this car to the track again. I averaged once a month since March, and even bought a trailer to haul it around. Ironically the first time I used the trailer was when the bags blew.


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I totally understand the issue and the question. My point is that airbags potentially has an issue in sensors and GM should address it.
I think there are some people that still are missing the point of this. I don't believe there is a defect (at least not in my car), the system was designed to work with a stock car. My mistake was not realizing sooner that the Camaro SS is not a sports car, although you can certainly modify it to work better. However, GM didn't design this car so you could turn it into a road course monster. Their safety systems are designed for an everyday driver in stock form. I learned an expensive lesson. Don't modify your car and expect GM to be OK with it when something f*s up. The old saying "gotta pay to play" holds up here. My advice, proceed at your own risk.

As for filing this with my insurance company, it won't fly. I was not on a public road, and my ins. co. doesn't cover this stuff when a car is used in this manner. My wife used to work for them and told me this before I ever went to the track. Fortunately she's be cool with this expensive set back and hasn't given me any grief about tracking in the future.
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Old 10-10-2012, 07:34 PM   #48
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(Snip)

I'm aware of about like 5 instances where air bags have gone off in late model GM cars during autocross and road racing. That's a lot in two years, because I'm not aware of any in 15 years of racing 4th gens.

Respectfully,

John
All the incidents I have read are *side* curtain airbags being deployed without accident in gen5 Camaros while on the track or autocross. I don't think 4th gens had side bags, did they? obviously, if true, that would account for the lack of reports of this kind of incident in 4th gens.

Not trying to be a wise guy... just trying to make sure I understand the scope of the issue and reports.

Cheers,
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Old 10-10-2012, 07:56 PM   #49
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Good point, I don't know if all the reports I've seen with late models have all been side ones, and 4th gens did not have side bags.
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Old 10-11-2012, 06:26 PM   #50
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