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Old 10-05-2012, 11:13 AM   #1
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Max HP without going internal?

I am just trying to get a feel for what kind of horsepower can be had without doing heads and/or cam???

It seems that everyone that is going 700+ rwhp has also at least had a cam install. I was wondering if you could just get a bigger blower...2.3...2.9??? and force more air into it??

What is the limitation of forcing more air? Is it a cooling issue(IAT)? Is the issue the hypereutecticticecticectic pistons?...the entire rotating assembly?

Anyway, it just seems to me that if you could slap a bigger blower on there it would be easier and cheaper than doing heads/cam also?
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Old 10-05-2012, 11:31 AM   #2
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Massive heat soak. Supercharger cooling is a major issue in warm weather with these cars with the blower that's on them. Also, if you don't care about that, I think there is a question of room under the hood for a bigger blower. Please correct me if I'm wrong here.
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Old 10-05-2012, 01:39 PM   #3
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a TS whipple or TVS design will be more effecient than what is on there right now. That in its self will drop the IAT2 temps at the same boost level. Building a better IC system is not hard.

I know whipple is working on a system for the ZL1 but I dont know what platform it will be though 2.3/2.9?? I think a 2.9 blower is about perfect with the 6.2 and around 13-15 psi. I think that once we find out about the durablilty of the motors, you will start to see guys push the stock blower pretty deep. When the TS' blowers come out you will see them pushed pretty hard.
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Old 10-05-2012, 02:02 PM   #4
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a TS whipple or TVS design will be more effecient than what is on there right now. That in its self will drop the IAT2 temps at the same boost level. Building a better IC system is not hard.

I know whipple is working on a system for the ZL1 but I dont know what platform it will be though 2.3/2.9?? I think a 2.9 blower is about perfect with the 6.2 and around 13-15 psi. I think that once we find out about the durablilty of the motors, you will start to see guys push the stock blower pretty deep. When the TS' blowers come out you will see them pushed pretty hard.
The ZL1 engine is the same motor the have been using in the Cadillacs for a couple years. They are proven reliable, pushed far past 700 rwhp. Surprised the don't have blowers already, for the CTS-V. I ported mine as far as it can go, made a huge difference. The superchiller fixes heat soak, no worries. If it fails it defaults to the HE.

Last edited by Nailn it; 10-05-2012 at 06:25 PM.
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:05 PM   #5
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well without heads and cam's my guess would be the 650whp range without headers and 670 or so with. all guessing though.

I have not seen a car yet that went that way though. cai, TB, ported snout, ported blower, both pullies, headers. every build that did all that threw in cam at MIN.

my gut says 670hp or so then again you kind of have to choose how much boost you push at aosme point. think you can pullie it up pretty high but I would quit before that.

I know bigger blowers are in the works but that will be $7.5k i am sure. power potential will be to the limits of the safty I am sure.
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Old 10-05-2012, 04:20 PM   #6
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well without heads and cam's my guess would be the 650whp range without headers and 670 or so with. all guessing though.

I have not seen a car yet that went that way though. cai, TB, ported snout, ported blower, both pullies, headers. every build that did all that threw in cam at MIN.

my gut says 670hp or so then again you kind of have to choose how much boost you push at aosme point. think you can pullie it up pretty high but I would quit before that.

I know bigger blowers are in the works but that will be $7.5k i am sure. power potential will be to the limits of the safty I am sure.
I was told 80 to 100 HP could be coaxed from the Z by changing pulleys ,cai and tune without the addition of headers and exhaust mod's.
It all depends on how much money you want to invest in going faster than you already can.
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Old 10-05-2012, 04:33 PM   #7
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Thanks for the input fellas. I am familiar with the common strategies and what numbers they are putting down. My main question is how far can you go just by pumping up the boost....which would obviously require a different blower. And if you could go 15psi with a new blower it may just be worth $7.5k.....which is what heads and cam would cost you....easily. Although I would think a different blower would rung in less than that....more in the $5k range although that is a WAG. I would imagine the weak link in the motor would be those funny named pistons!

Thanks again...good discussion. Keep it coming!
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Old 10-05-2012, 05:22 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyjbaker View Post
Thanks for the input fellas. I am familiar with the common strategies and what numbers they are putting down. My main question is how far can you go just by pumping up the boost....which would obviously require a different blower. And if you could go 15psi with a new blower it may just be worth $7.5k.....which is what heads and cam would cost you....easily. Although I would think a different blower would rung in less than that....more in the $5k range although that is a WAG. I would imagine the weak link in the motor would be those funny named pistons!

Thanks again...good discussion. Keep it coming!

You dont have to change the stock blower to increase the boost. You can change out the upper and lower pulleys and get 15 psi boost out of the stock blower. Changing to a bigger blower like a whipple is going to more expensive than changing the internals IMO.
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Old 10-05-2012, 10:53 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by flyjbaker View Post
Thanks for the input fellas. I am familiar with the common strategies and what numbers they are putting down. My main question is how far can you go just by pumping up the boost....which would obviously require a different blower. And if you could go 15psi with a new blower it may just be worth $7.5k.....which is what heads and cam would cost you....easily. Although I would think a different blower would rung in less than that....more in the $5k range although that is a WAG. I would imagine the weak link in the motor would be those funny named pistons!

Thanks again...good discussion. Keep it coming!
This blower will take it all the way to 17psi.
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Old 10-06-2012, 03:59 AM   #10
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A few vendors (ADM being one, 650+package) have built 600 to the tire cars with all external mods. Takes 13-14psi and 93 octane though. That's close to 700 at the crank with the stock cam!
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Old 10-06-2012, 07:40 AM   #11
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look at the livernois stage 2 package..........
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Old 10-06-2012, 08:46 AM   #12
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look at the livernois stage 2 package..........
This is correct, our stage 2 package maximizes the safe level of power without getting into the engine.

The reason you see cams/heads/etc done to make more is keeping the boost level low enough to be reliable on pump gas. The pistons are not the issue, as having a forged piston would only provide you with some better insurance in case of detonation. Case in point, our stage 2 package makes 14-15 psi, but so does our stage 3 head/cam set up. The head/cam combo makes easily 100 more rwhp at the same boost.

Boost is just a measure of restriction, we move more air through the engine on our stage 3 with a more aggressive pulley combo, but because of the cam and head work the boost stays the same because there is greater efficiency, allowing for more power on pump gas. Something that changing the style of blower, size of blower, or anything else will not do.

There is a common misconception that larger blowers will make more power. This is false. 14 psi of boost from any manufacturer of supercharger will yield very similar results. Now one may generate more heat then another, which would make the number less repeatable, but with all conditions being the same they will make near identical peak power.

Now a larger blower has the capability to support more power, but the rest of the combination will be the limiting factor on that.
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:56 AM   #13
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Thanks Andy!!! Very well put. I do understand, all things being equal...14psi=14psi.

So what you are saying is that H/C will always be a worthwhile expenditure on this car and that there is no shortcut by just adding more boost(in theory)? I also do understand the heat issues as boost is increased and some blowers are more efficient at generating boost with less heat.

One more question while I have you on the line:
I assume the cams you put into these applications are more suited to a blower than an N/A car? And if I remember correctly, that would be no overlap of intake and exhaust?

Thanks in advance. I have had a fair amount of experience with N/A LSx egines but have been out of the loop for about 7 years. I am getting old and seem to have forgot a lot of shit lately...hahaha. Just trying to get back up to speed by asking these somewhat arcane questions so I can understand. Thanks again!!!!
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:19 PM   #14
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Andy put it very clearly. One other thing I would point out from my experience since some of the earlier posts were inquiring about changing the blower but not so much heads or cam...

When I first started on my upgrades, I wanted to stay external on the engine. I planned blower porting, throttle body, CAI, pulleys, exhaust, heat exchanger, all "external stuff". Well once I got that blower off to ship it out for porting, there staring me in the face was a regular old LS engine stripped to the point of making a cam/head swap not much additional work. My project quickly turned into a full 700rwhp build.

My point is if you want to stay external on the engine, don't touch the blower! Most of us gear heads, I imagine, will suffer the same fate as me if you do. It's just too easy to swap a cam and heads!

You'll love the new power though!
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Old 10-06-2012, 04:50 PM   #15
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back to the original post the limits are the pistons and rods from what I have read. ~800hp is the rule of thumb I read.
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Old 10-08-2012, 09:47 AM   #16
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back to the original post the limits are the pistons and rods from what I have read. ~800hp is the rule of thumb I read.
As long as the tune up is good, and not detonation occurs, I agree with this limit.
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Old 10-08-2012, 09:49 AM   #17
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Thanks Andy!!! Very well put. I do understand, all things being equal...14psi=14psi.

So what you are saying is that H/C will always be a worthwhile expenditure on this car and that there is no shortcut by just adding more boost(in theory)? I also do understand the heat issues as boost is increased and some blowers are more efficient at generating boost with less heat.

One more question while I have you on the line:
I assume the cams you put into these applications are more suited to a blower than an N/A car? And if I remember correctly, that would be no overlap of intake and exhaust?

Thanks in advance. I have had a fair amount of experience with N/A LSx egines but have been out of the loop for about 7 years. I am getting old and seem to have forgot a lot of shit lately...hahaha. Just trying to get back up to speed by asking these somewhat arcane questions so I can understand. Thanks again!!!!


You technically could add boost, but you would need to add octane, whether race gas, or methanol. Indeed the cam offerings we suggest are designed for boost. They have slight overlap because a little overlap will let the boost push out some left over exhaust gas in the cylinder, but no crazy overlap like some NA cams have.
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Old 10-08-2012, 12:00 PM   #18
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THANKS!
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Old 10-08-2012, 12:16 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyjbaker View Post
Thanks for the input fellas. I am familiar with the common strategies and what numbers they are putting down. My main question is how far can you go just by pumping up the boost....which would obviously require a different blower. And if you could go 15psi with a new blower it may just be worth $7.5k.....which is what heads and cam would cost you....easily. Although I would think a different blower would rung in less than that....more in the $5k range although that is a WAG. I would imagine the weak link in the motor would be those funny named pistons!

Thanks again...good discussion. Keep it coming!
uhhhh 7.5k for heads and a cam package? I got my cam package from jannetty for like 1400 and that came with EVERYTHING to do the job minus the oil and filter for the oil change. Granted my car is a SS but i cant see a huge difference in price. And as har as heads go you dont need to spend 6k on a pair of heads, if anything port the stock heads and they will be more then enough to make you happy.
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Old 10-08-2012, 12:22 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Andy@Livernois View Post
This is correct, our stage 2 package maximizes the safe level of power without getting into the engine.

The reason you see cams/heads/etc done to make more is keeping the boost level low enough to be reliable on pump gas. The pistons are not the issue, as having a forged piston would only provide you with some better insurance in case of detonation. Case in point, our stage 2 package makes 14-15 psi, but so does our stage 3 head/cam set up. The head/cam combo makes easily 100 more rwhp at the same boost.

Boost is just a measure of restriction, we move more air through the engine on our stage 3 with a more aggressive pulley combo, but because of the cam and head work the boost stays the same because there is greater efficiency, allowing for more power on pump gas. Something that changing the style of blower, size of blower, or anything else will not do.

There is a common misconception that larger blowers will make more power. This is false. 14 psi of boost from any manufacturer of supercharger will yield very similar results. Now one may generate more heat then another, which would make the number less repeatable, but with all conditions being the same they will make near identical peak power.


Now a larger blower has the capability to support more power, but the rest of the combination will be the limiting factor on that.
This is the single most intelligent post I have ever read on this forum . I have told so many people this and no one can seem to understand that boost is just a measurement of restriction and 10lbs is 10lbs and will yield about the same power no matter the size of the blower, givin the same set-ups but different blower sizes.
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Old 10-08-2012, 12:37 PM   #21
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What temp/duration is considered heat soak? My IATs are always pretty cool. They get cooler the faster I go. regardless of how many runs I make. Maybe the great white north has its benefits...My intercooler hoses never get hot. Just lightly warm. I run 12.5 lbs of boost.
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Old 10-08-2012, 12:40 PM   #22
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back to the original post the limits are the pistons and rods from what I have read. ~800hp is the rule of thumb I read.



800 engine hp or rw hp?
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Old 10-08-2012, 01:25 PM   #23
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This is the single most intelligent post I have ever read on this forum . I have told so many people this and no one can seem to understand that boost is just a measurement of restriction and 10lbs is 10lbs and will yield about the same power no matter the size of the blower, givin the same set-ups but different blower sizes.
Maybe it was due to an intelligent question????
Seriously, like i said, the reason for my (correlative)questions was just to help me understand the car more and get me back up to speed. I do not even own a ZL1...yet.

I do agree but there are blowers that are able to produce the same or more boost with less heat and that does equal more power!! Most of my blower knowledge comes from the 03 Cobras. There was a diminishing point on the stock blower on that car where heat would cancel out any power gains by turning up the boost. Hence blowers like Kenne Bell that were MUCH more efficient at producing boost without as much heat and therefore more power. So while all things being equal on that car, the stock blower was done around 500rwhp while the Kenne Bell was good for 600+. I didn't even own a Cobra.....but I knew my enemy!!!!
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Old 10-08-2012, 01:30 PM   #24
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uhhhh 7.5k for heads and a cam package? I got my cam package from jannetty for like 1400 and that came with EVERYTHING to do the job minus the oil and filter for the oil change. Granted my car is a SS but i cant see a huge difference in price. And as har as heads go you dont need to spend 6k on a pair of heads, if anything port the stock heads and they will be more then enough to make you happy.
Apples and oranges. I was talking about a very complete PACKAGE...not just heads and Cam. Look at any speed shop and they offer a package. Which includes headers and cats and intake and all of the accessories that go along with it...not to mention a tune. And that is installed with a warranty. SO, yeah, I remember $8k ish from my dated knowledge. Might even be more now. Again, one of the angles of my questions...Trying to just turn up the boost without having to go internal....IOW...."cheap"...er..
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Old 10-08-2012, 01:58 PM   #25
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Apples and oranges. I was talking about a very complete PACKAGE...not just heads and Cam. Look at any speed shop and they offer a package. Which includes headers and cats and intake and all of the accessories that go along with it...not to mention a tune. And that is installed with a warranty. SO, yeah, I remember $8k ish from my dated knowledge. Might even be more now. Again, one of the angles of my questions...Trying to just turn up the boost without having to go internal....IOW...."cheap"...er..

I hear you. I'm a technician by trade and have roughly 25,000+ in tools alone so luckily for me I was able to do ALL of my own work in the garage. Saved me a ton of cash on the labor part of things and since I buy all of my stuff from Jannetty Racing, Ted tunes my car for free which is another HUGE savings.
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