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Old 10-12-2012, 09:07 PM   #1
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Blackfire Gloss Enhancing Polish not all it's cracked up to be

I will start out this review by saying that I am by no means an expert in the finer details of polishing. I've only been serious about detailing my car for about the last 3 months. I've read and watched many different reviews and videos of various products and techniques to learn the best way to take care of my baby. Junkman, Todd at Autopia, and various others have answered my questions and helped me refine my technique.

I started out with M105 and M205 because I had heard such great reviews about these products. I bought the Meguiars DA polisher and numerous LC pads. Using M105 and M205 I achieved a shine I didn't expect. I was surprised at how easy it was (being skeptical of taking a machine to my car) to use and remove. But like many beginning detailers I wanted the BEST shine possile. I searched for the BEST possible products. I have had great results using M205 as my final product before sealant/wax application, but going off of Todd's advice I purchased Blackfire's Gloss Enhancing Polish as the last final wax prep polish. Let me just say...big mistake.

As I've said before, I am no expert, but I know what good paint looks like. I know what a swirl is and how to remove it. GEP was supposed to be the last final step, a non abbrasive polish to help maximize the effect of BFWD sealant. After using it, I can't see how anyone would recommend this polish as a "pre-wax" polish. I did a test, using Blackfire GEP and Meguiars M205 side by side to see the results. I was suprised to say the least. M205 left the amazing finish we all expect. GEP left a paint surface riddled with thousands of microswirls, acting almost like an aggressive compound. What really confused me was that I used the same technique and same cut pads (white and blue LC pads) to test this out. Consistently M205 beat GEP HANDS DOWN. Not even close. How a "non-abrasive" polish combined with a finishing pad leaves thousands of micro-swirls is beyond me. But it did. In case people belive I'm joking and can't possibly be serious, I have included a photo. On the right is M205 and on the left is Blackfire GEP. Using the same technique and the same pads. The only difference is the product. I will let you determine which you think is better and let you come to your own conclusion. As for me...I won't let GEP near my car ever again. I love BFWD and Midnight Sun Wax. But their GEP is garbage in my opinion. Anyone have similar stories?

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Old 10-12-2012, 09:38 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chappy48 View Post
I will start out this review by saying that I am by no means an expert in the finer details of polishing. I've only been serious about detailing my car for about the last 3 months. I've read and watched many different reviews and videos of various products and techniques to learn the best way to take care of my baby. Junkman, Todd at Autopia, and various others have answered my questions and helped me refine my technique.

I started out with M105 and M205 because I had heard such great reviews about these products. I bought the Meguiars DA polisher and numerous LC pads. Using M105 and M205 I achieved a shine I didn't expect. I was surprised at how easy it was (being skeptical of taking a machine to my car) to use and remove. But like many beginning detailers I wanted the BEST shine possile. I searched for the BEST possible products. I have had great results using M205 as my final product before sealant/wax application, but going off of Todd's advice I purchased Blackfire's Gloss Enhancing Polish as the last final wax prep polish. Let me just say...big mistake.

As I've said before, I am no expert, but I know what good paint looks like. I know what a swirl is and how to remove it. GEP was supposed to be the last final step, a non abbrasive polish to help maximize the effect of BFWD sealant. After using it, I can't see how anyone would recommend this polish as a "pre-wax" polish. I did a test, using Blackfire GEP and Meguiars M205 side by side to see the results. I was suprised to say the least. M205 left the amazing finish we all expect. GEP left a paint surface riddled with thousands of microswirls, acting almost like an aggressive compound. What really confused me was that I used the same technique and same cut pads (white and blue LC pads) to test this out. Consistently M205 beat GEP HANDS DOWN. Not even close. How a "non-abrasive" polish combined with a finishing pad leaves thousands of micro-swirls is beyond me. But it did. In case people belive I'm joking and can't possibly be serious, I have included a photo. On the right is M205 and on the left is Blackfire GEP. Using the same technique and the same pads. The only difference is the product. I will let you determine which you think is better and let you come to your own conclusion. As for me...I won't let GEP near my car ever again. I love BFWD and Midnight Sun Wax. But their GEP is garbage in my opinion. Anyone have similar stories?

I use P21s, try some, once you use that you will never go back. It was rated #1 against a test of all the other expensive waxes.
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Old 10-12-2012, 09:49 PM   #3
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I use P21s, try some, once you use that you will never go back. It was rated #1 against a test of all the other expensive waxes.
Has nothing to do with this topic whatsoever. This is a review of polish, not a sealant or wax.

Surprised you had those results op. Pictures don't lie though. Hopefully Todd can lend his opinion. Nobody knows the blackfire line like he does.

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Old 10-12-2012, 10:08 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by CamaroDreams07 View Post
Has nothing to do with this topic whatsoever. This is a review of polish, not a sealant or wax.

Surprised you had those results op. Pictures don't lie though. Hopefully Todd can lend his opinion. Nobody knows the blackfire line like he does.

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I was surprised myself, having talked to Todd and hearing all the great things about GEP. I would say it's my technique, but that's doesn't explain the drastic result difference between M205 and GEP when the pads and the technique were THE SAME. As far as P21s...I have that wax and it's really good.

PS...I've sent Todd a PM with this picture asking for advice and why I achieved the result I did. So far no response other then "let me know how it works out for you".

PPS...I should also add that GEP was a royal PAIN in the ass to remove compared to M205. I had to reapply a coat of GEP and work it very quickly (ie short amount of time) to remove everything. M205 came off, no matter how long I worked it with a few swipes of the cloth.
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Last edited by chappy48; 10-12-2012 at 10:22 PM.
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:16 PM   #5
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Tbh, I hear that m205 isn't the ultimate finishing down polish.... but with your picture, it looks quite good and I would be happy with the m205 finish.

Maybe it could be that in your conditions (sunlight, heat, humidity, etc) m205 simply worked much better.

One thing for sure, this was an interesting post. Thanks for posting!

Do you mind if I copy your thread to autogeek and ask there?
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:22 PM   #6
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Old 10-13-2012, 01:27 PM   #7
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Tbh, I hear that m205 isn't the ultimate finishing down polish.... but with your picture, it looks quite good and I would be happy with the m205 finish.

Maybe it could be that in your conditions (sunlight, heat, humidity, etc) m205 simply worked much better.

One thing for sure, this was an interesting post. Thanks for posting!

Do you mind if I copy your thread to autogeek and ask there?
Go for it. I'm just really confused as to the results I got and was wondering if anyone has had a similar result with GEP. The more people see this the better.
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Old 10-13-2012, 01:35 PM   #8
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maybe its me but I cant see anything with that pic, in the dark with what appear to be search lights reflecting off the paint...

do you have any out in the sun with no direct light reflecting?
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Old 10-13-2012, 02:25 PM   #9
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maybe its me but I cant see anything with that pic, in the dark with what appear to be search lights reflecting off the paint...

do you have any out in the sun with no direct light reflecting?
You can't see the clear vertical line that divides the two sections, in the middle of the stripe?

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Old 10-13-2012, 02:27 PM   #10
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You can't see the clear vertical line that divides the two sections, in the middle of the stripe?

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I can, I was thinking that was the angle off the cowl as the line is straight as a ruler, didnt think you could get an edge that straight with a buffer, so was looking for definative difference.
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Old 10-13-2012, 02:38 PM   #11
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I can, I was thinking that was the angle off the cowl as the line is straight as a ruler, didnt think you could get an edge that straight with a buffer, so was looking for definative difference.
I'm assuming he used tape to separate the panels, as is the general practice in comparison shots.

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Old 10-13-2012, 06:02 PM   #12
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I'm assuming he used tape to separate the panels, as is the general practice in comparison shots.

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This ^^ I used tape. This shot is on the rear trunk lid.
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Old 10-13-2012, 07:39 PM   #13
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As its already mentioned, 205 is actually in the higher end market not considered a finishing polish. To most weekend warriors its a great finishing polish for its ease of use on and off. But too someone who does this for a living, I never finish down with 205. It has way to much cut and does not give a proper perfect finish.

Now I have never tried the Blackfire Prep...nor any other prep. The most prep actually have a sort of filler in them and do not add to any longevity of a LSP. You could save yourself money by simply doing a IPA wipe down of a car. If the surface is perfectly clean of any oils or contaminants from a finishing polish, it will also a LSP to better bond to the surface.

Now onto how you managed that much micromarring...is pretty impressive. LC pads are not that great to begin with. It could be from the amount of product you applied, the amount of force you used, the speed at which you were at with the machine and the time you spent working the product in. I do not know the instructions of the Blackfire Prep so I cannot guesstimate how you differed over the 205. Now if you worked the Prep in too long, what you are actually seeing is marring possibly caused from the pad.
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Old 10-15-2012, 12:06 AM   #14
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M205 has proven itself to be an excellent finishing polish. I have seen many comparisons to what most would consider to be "finishing" polishes and it looks no different. If you think it has too much cut...that's your opinion. I have seen M205 up close under an inspection light and seen no evidence of swirls or hazing.

I completly disagree with your idea of doing an IPA wipe to allow an LSP to better bond to the surface. The ONLY purpose of doing an IPA wipe is to see what damage you still have in the paint. It's a great tool to see if your work is doing what it should, taking swirls out of the paint, but an IPA wipe will do nothing, except expose damage still present on your car. The myth of it allowing an LSP to better adhere to the paint has been debunked time and time again.

LC pads have a track record, how you say they are not great is beyond me. The amount of product applied was the same as with M205. I noticed that GEP had a shorter working time, after the first coat applied, but even with a second coat applied to take up all the product it left numerous microswirls.

Again...the technique was the same for both products. M205 simply finished better then GEP. If anyone has experienced similar results I'd be interested, because oF GEP's stated purpose.
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Old 10-15-2012, 05:05 PM   #15
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M205 has proven itself to be an excellent finishing polish. I have seen many comparisons to what most would consider to be "finishing" polishes and it looks no different. If you think it has too much cut...that's your opinion. I have seen M205 up close under an inspection light and seen no evidence of swirls or hazing.


I completly disagree with your idea of doing an IPA wipe to allow an LSP to better bond to the surface. The ONLY purpose of doing an IPA wipe is to see what damage you still have in the paint. It's a great tool to see if your work is doing what it should, taking swirls out of the paint, but an IPA wipe will do nothing, except expose damage still present on your car. The myth of it allowing an LSP to better adhere to the paint has been debunked time and
time again.

I do slightly disagree with you here, as some polishes do leave behind oils that may interact negatively with your sealant. Probably 99% of the time, you'll see no issues either way, though. It's just something that takes 2 seconds and can only either help, or at worst, do nothing, so I generally always do it.

LC pads have a track record, how you say they are not great is beyond me. The amount of product applied was the same as with M205. I noticed that GEP had a shorter working time, after the first coat applied, but even with a second coat applied to take up all the product it left numerous microswirls.

Completely agree here. LC is kind of THE standard in pads as far as I'm concerned.

Again...the technique was the same for both products. M205 simply finished better then GEP. If anyone has experienced similar results I'd be interested, because oF GEP's stated purpose.
.
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Old 10-15-2012, 06:30 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chappy48 View Post
M205 has proven itself to be an excellent finishing polish. I have seen many comparisons to what most would consider to be "finishing" polishes and it looks no different. If you think it has too much cut...that's your opinion. I have seen M205 up close under an inspection light and seen no evidence of swirls or hazing.

I completly disagree with your idea of doing an IPA wipe to allow an LSP to better bond to the surface. The ONLY purpose of doing an IPA wipe is to see what damage you still have in the paint. It's a great tool to see if your work is doing what it should, taking swirls out of the paint, but an IPA wipe will do nothing, except expose damage still present on your car. The myth of it allowing an LSP to better adhere to the paint has been debunked time and time again.

LC pads have a track record, how you say they are not great is beyond me. The amount of product applied was the same as with M205. I noticed that GEP had a shorter working time, after the first coat applied, but even with a second coat applied to take up all the product it left numerous microswirls.

Again...the technique was the same for both products. M205 simply finished better then GEP. If anyone has experienced similar results I'd be interested, because oF GEP's stated purpose.
I hate to say it, but you are wrong on a lot of this information. It sounds like you are basing a lot of your information off being a weekend warrior detailer.

205 in the higher end community is not know at all as a final polish, unless your working on an extremely hard clear. Other than hard clears, its normally a middle polish to remove some of the deeper micromarring left behind from compounding. If you have seen no difference, its because you do not know what you are looking for. Yes, again, on hard clears it does look great to 99% of the people out there. Too people like me, who do this for a living, it does not finish worth a damn on soft and medium style clears. Saying its my opinion, is simply you saying, "I have no clue what I am talking about."

205 on a scale of 1-10, its a 5 in cut.
PO85RD on a scale of 1-10 its a 3 in cut.
106FA on a scale of 1-10 its a 2 in cut.
HD Polish on a scale of 1-10 its a 3 in cut.

What makes the 3 beside 205 different, is that they have more oils in them and grant a much longer working time and a better finish. 85RD/106FA/HD Polish are the most commonly used, true finishing polishes, use in the high in community.

When working on the car below last week, 205 had to be used as a middle polish, because M105/300 mixture was leaving to much micromarring. The 205 itself was still leaving a solid haze on the paint, requiring to be finished down more.



Now onto the IPA. Saying its been disproven, I do not know who is disproving it, but they are wrong. Its been proven MANY TIMES OVER that it perfectly cleans the surface giving any LSP a better bond. As someone already said, most polishes leave behind oil/residue which is what, if not cleaned off, your LSP will not give it a better bond as laying it perfectly on top of the clear would. Similar to when applying CQuartz, AQuartz, Opti-Coat, Opti-Guard and Wolfs Hard Body. They require that the paint be perfectly clean for a proper bond of the product.

Now onto the Lake Country Pads...they do not have a great track record. Yes a lot of people use them, but they are not the best pad, but that is solely in my opinion. Uber/CG/Meguiars are generally better quality pads.
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Old 10-15-2012, 08:21 PM   #17
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Chappy48,

If you wouldn't mind I'd like to ask a few questions and offer some input as to what I believe is why your getting the results that you are getting after using the gloss enhancing polish.

What pads are you using for each step? How long are you using each pad for and are you cleaning them often? Also are you priming the pads with the polishing product before using them?

The reason I ask about pads is, you definitely wand to start with a more course pad to cut. Which is what the 105 is for. For finishing after 205 you want to use a pad with almost no cut.

I'll try to touch on a couple of the points in the discussions above in no particular order.
The first is using IPA. It is not only used to prep for sealants but also to check how the paint looks between steps. Although there are better alternatives out there than ipa.

Most polishes/compounds are a slurry of particles (diminishing or non diminishing), oils, and or water, and other liquids to allow the product to work as it was designed to in the lab. These liquids can and do, very effectively, hide swirls/micro-marring. But they are needed to carry the cutting particles for a period of time so they can't be eliminated.

This is where ipa, or a similar cleaner comes in, to remove the oils, etc. to get a true look at where you are in the process.

As for the LC pads. They've been around for a long time and I don't know of many detailers that don't have them in their arsenal including me! I also have Megs pads, Uber pads which are Buff N Shine pads and 3M European pads to name a few. LC has had some issues with adhesive backing and foam tearing but so have the others when used on a PC. 90% of the time I grab a LC pad for finishing. The thin Hydro Tech pads work very well on a PC due to the type of foam used which makes them stiffer yet not as abrasive as a comparable stiff "normal" pad.

Now onto the Blackfire polish. It's not a polish like 205 is. It doesn't have cutting particles in it like 205, 106fa, 85rd etc. It is a chemical polish/cleaner/glaze. If your using it with a red or black pad thats primed, so as not to grab the paint, and at a slower speed, it would be pretty hard to induce micro-marring like you have.

What I believe is happening is it's actually cleaning up the oils left from the 205, which it was designed to do, and revealing a very uniform PC haze. This is what I see in the pics. I may be wrong which is why I asked the questions first. If I'm right, it shouldn't be too hard to get you dialed in and getting your Camaro gleaming in all types of lighting.

Just offering some help so I hope you don't take offence to this.

Regards,
Mike
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Old 10-15-2012, 08:29 PM   #18
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For a first post that was enlightning......
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Old 10-15-2012, 08:35 PM   #19
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For a first post that was enlightning......
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Old 10-15-2012, 09:12 PM   #20
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Quote:
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Chappy48,

If you wouldn't mind I'd like to ask a few questions and offer some input as to what I believe is why your getting the results that you are getting after using the gloss enhancing polish.

What pads are you using for each step? How long are you using each pad for and are you cleaning them often? Also are you priming the pads with the polishing product before using them?

The reason I ask about pads is, you definitely wand to start with a more course pad to cut. Which is what the 105 is for. For finishing after 205 you want to use a pad with almost no cut.

I'll try to touch on a couple of the points in the discussions above in no particular order.
The first is using IPA. It is not only used to prep for sealants but also to check how the paint looks between steps. Although there are better alternatives out there than ipa.

Most polishes/compounds are a slurry of particles (diminishing or non diminishing), oils, and or water, and other liquids to allow the product to work as it was designed to in the lab. These liquids can and do, very effectively, hide swirls/micro-marring. But they are needed to carry the cutting particles for a period of time so they can't be eliminated.

This is where ipa, or a similar cleaner comes in, to remove the oils, etc. to get a true look at where you are in the process.

As for the LC pads. They've been around for a long time and I don't know of many detailers that don't have them in their arsenal including me! I also have Megs pads, Uber pads which are Buff N Shine pads and 3M European pads to name a few. LC has had some issues with adhesive backing and foam tearing but so have the others when used on a PC. 90% of the time I grab a LC pad for finishing. The thin Hydro Tech pads work very well on a PC due to the type of foam used which makes them stiffer yet not as abrasive as a comparable stiff "normal" pad.

Now onto the Blackfire polish. It's not a polish like 205 is. It doesn't have cutting particles in it like 205, 106fa, 85rd etc. It is a chemical polish/cleaner/glaze. If your using it with a red or black pad thats primed, so as not to grab the paint, and at a slower speed, it would be pretty hard to induce micro-marring like you have.

What I believe is happening is it's actually cleaning up the oils left from the 205, which it was designed to do, and revealing a very uniform PC haze. This is what I see in the pics. I may be wrong which is why I asked the questions first. If I'm right, it shouldn't be too hard to get you dialed in and getting your Camaro gleaming in all types of lighting.

Just offering some help so I hope you don't take offence to this.

Regards,
Mike
No offense. I used a brand new White LC pad at first, and primed it properly using the M205, noticed barely a hint of haze so I switched to a blue LC pad with M205. I then switched to a brand new black LC pad with the GEP, priming it properly. I guess if it is doing it's job and revealing a micro haze I could find out really quick by doing an IPA wipe and see if I see the same. I know M205 has polishing oils, but according to Meguiars, at least what I read, it doesn't have any fillers. Are the oils in M205 hiding defects? Because as a paint correction polish, I was under the impression that it is supposed to correct swirls, not hide them. The only other time I've seen micromarring like that was with M105 using a cutting pad. I would assume the M205 would take care of that and not just hide it
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Old 10-15-2012, 09:20 PM   #21
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PS...I've sent Todd a PM with this picture asking for advice and why I achieved the result I did. So far no response other then "let me know how it works out for you".
I apologize for this, I never received a PM with a picture, and looking back through my previous PM's, I still cannot find it. It is possible I missed it, skipped it, or the picture didn't go through. That is why I sent you a PM today, stating I must be missing something.



I would agree that M205 can fill paint pretty well and while it is possible to get a perfect finish from M205, it is quite difficult. I would 100% agree with Mike's assessement that GEP is removing the polishing oils from M205 (which are fairly resistent to even alcohol wipe downs), thus reveling a scared finish.

Gloss Enhancing Polish is functionally not abrasive, it cannot create the surface scratching that your seeing. Well I should not say that it cannot as I have seen stranger things occur, but for all intensive purposes, it really should not be the cause of your problems.


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Old 10-15-2012, 09:25 PM   #22
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I hate to say it, but you are wrong on a lot of this information. It sounds like you are basing a lot of your information off being a weekend warrior detailer.

205 in the higher end community is not know at all as a final polish, unless your working on an extremely hard clear. Other than hard clears, its normally a middle polish to remove some of the deeper micromarring left behind from compounding. If you have seen no difference, its because you do not know what you are looking for. Yes, again, on hard clears it does look great to 99% of the people out there. Too people like me, who do this for a living, it does not finish worth a damn on soft and medium style clears. Saying its my opinion, is simply you saying, "I have no clue what I am talking about."

205 on a scale of 1-10, its a 5 in cut.
PO85RD on a scale of 1-10 its a 3 in cut.
106FA on a scale of 1-10 its a 2 in cut.
HD Polish on a scale of 1-10 its a 3 in cut.

What makes the 3 beside 205 different, is that they have more oils in them and grant a much longer working time and a better finish. 85RD/106FA/HD Polish are the most commonly used, true finishing polishes, use in the high in community.

When working on the car below last week, 205 had to be used as a middle polish, because M105/300 mixture was leaving to much micromarring. The 205 itself was still leaving a solid haze on the paint, requiring to be finished down more.

Now onto the IPA. Saying its been disproven, I do not know who is disproving it, but they are wrong. Its been proven MANY TIMES OVER that it perfectly cleans the surface giving any LSP a better bond. As someone already said, most polishes leave behind oil/residue which is what, if not cleaned off, your LSP will not give it a better bond as laying it perfectly on top of the clear would. Similar to when applying CQuartz, AQuartz, Opti-Coat, Opti-Guard and Wolfs Hard Body. They require that the paint be perfectly clean for a proper bond of the product.

Now onto the Lake Country Pads...they do not have a great track record. Yes a lot of people use them, but they are not the best pad, but that is solely in my opinion. Uber/CG/Meguiars are generally better quality pads.
Let's just say we disagree. I don't feel if you are using quality products that you need to do an IPA wipe unless it's called for by the product you are using. I've talked to a few reputable detailers that would disagree with you as well, but that is neither hear nor there.

I've actually been looking at getting a Menzerna finishing polish, just to see, in person, what it would look like, but from comparisons I've seen done it wasn't a huge difference. I'm always open to new products, but I probably won't get the Menzerna until my M205 starts to run low.
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Old 10-15-2012, 09:30 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Todd@Autopia View Post
I apologize for this, I never received a PM with a picture, and looking back through my previous PM's, I still cannot find it. It is possible I missed it, skipped it, or the picture didn't go through. That is why I sent you a PM today, stating I must be missing something.



I would agree that M205 can fill paint pretty well and while it is possible to get a perfect finish from M205, it is quite difficult. I would 100% agree with Mike's assessement that GEP is removing the polishing oils from M205 (which are fairly resistent to even alcohol wipe downs), thus reveling a scared finish.

Gloss Enhancing Polish is functionally not abrasive, it cannot create the surface scratching that your seeing. Well I should not say that it cannot as I have seen stranger things occur, but for all intensive purposes, it really should not be the cause of your problems.


No worries Todd. I wondered why you replied to my first PM asking about GEP and then not the one with the picture. So do polishing oils act as fillers then? Everything I read on M205 said that it was simply a polish to correct defects, not hide them. What final polish would you recommend then? As I've said before, I've been looking at some of the Menzerna polishes, but because it's getting close to winter this may have to wait until next year.
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Jannetty Racing Rough Idle Cam, LS3 Conversion.
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Old 10-16-2012, 09:30 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by chappy48 View Post
No worries Todd. I wondered why you replied to my first PM asking about GEP and then not the one with the picture. So do polishing oils act as fillers then? Everything I read on M205 said that it was simply a polish to correct defects, not hide them. What final polish would you recommend then? As I've said before, I've been looking at some of the Menzerna polishes, but because it's getting close to winter this may have to wait until next year.
M205 is more than capable of creating a flawless finish on some paints, but many high-end pros have noticed some level of micro haze on the finish on a lot of finishes. Not quite as bad as your pictures, but you never know. I do know that there is nothing of significant abrasive content in the GEP and nothing that should create any marring, let alone the level of marring you are seeing.

A lot of guys will finish with Menzerna SF4500 or SF4000 after M205 for that reason. I am a big fan of SF4500 (PO85rd).
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Old 10-16-2012, 10:40 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Todd@Autopia View Post
M205 is more than capable of creating a flawless finish on some paints, but many high-end pros have noticed some level of micro haze on the finish on a lot of finishes. Not quite as bad as your pictures, but you never know. I do know that there is nothing of significant abrasive content in the GEP and nothing that should create any marring, let alone the level of marring you are seeing.

A lot of guys will finish with Menzerna SF4500 or SF4000 after M205 for that reason. I am a big fan of SF4500 (PO85rd).
Not related to this post but...

Menzerna may have some of the best polishes out there, but they seriously need to work on their product naming lol

It sounds like it goes straight from the laboratory notebook to the front of the label lmao
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