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Old 01-17-2013, 11:46 AM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PMJ View Post
PQ, did you get the ZL1 pump insalled? Did it solve your pressure problems?

I just installed a ZL1 pump and i'm seeing pressure drop on WOT to 48lbs. Unfortunatley i did not log the stock bump and did not cut an access door. I disconnected the BAP and didn't see any change, so I'm guessing the BAP isn't currently working. However, i would expect the ZL1 pump to maintain pressure as I'm just over 600 hp.

I'm going to test my BAP tomorrow...someone gave me a tip to connect your air compressor to the vacume tube at 10psi to test it.
I think you also need a new fpcm with a tune tweak

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Old 01-17-2013, 05:44 PM   #127
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I have zl1 pump and BAP with no issues and I am close 700rwhp on a mustang dyno.
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Old 01-18-2013, 12:19 AM   #128
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I think you also need a new fpcm with a tune tweak
After further review, I think i'm good. I did some hard pulls tonight and AFR looks great and all my other vitals are matching pre-ZL1 fuel pump. I'm going to assume it is normal for pressure to drop at WOT to around 48psi. The only thing that bugs me is the FP commanded DC...I'm locked in at 99.6%. I did notice the Whipple tune changed the DC to 99%...I backed that down to 90%, however logger is still showing 99.6%. Any ideas what's pushing it to 99.6? I disabled my BAP, so i'm running the straight ZL1 fuel pump.

Unless someone has a suggestion for me to check, I'm going to live with it... I'm starting my cam install next weekend!
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Old 01-18-2013, 10:43 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nyny69 View Post
I think you also need a new fpcm with a tune tweak

Sent from my Nexus 10
Are we possitive about that? I'd like to just plug and play til I get my injectors.
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Originally Posted by PMJ View Post
After further review, I think i'm good. I did some hard pulls tonight and AFR looks great and all my other vitals are matching pre-ZL1 fuel pump. I'm going to assume it is normal for pressure to drop at WOT to around 48psi. The only thing that bugs me is the FP commanded DC...I'm locked in at 99.6%. I did notice the Whipple tune changed the DC to 99%...I backed that down to 90%, however logger is still showing 99.6%. Any ideas what's pushing it to 99.6? I disabled my BAP, so i'm running the straight ZL1 fuel pump.

Unless someone has a suggestion for me to check, I'm going to live with it... I'm starting my cam install next weekend!
As I said in PM, I did not get the pump yet.

But I just don't like the 48psi on the FP drop. I've been told that it's at the edge of dangerous.

What did your guys say?
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Old 01-19-2013, 12:51 AM   #130
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Are we possitive about that? I'd like to just plug and play til I get my injectors.
As I said in PM, I did not get the pump yet.

But I just don't like the 48psi on the FP drop. I've been told that it's at the edge of dangerous.

What did your guys say?
So i'm now convinced I don't have a clue what I'm looking at/doing . I just put my Inj Delta on the same scale as my FP and what do you know...all of a sudden things are starting to click (maybe).

If i understand what I've been reading...Inj Delta + Boost = Desired FP.

When you are not in boost, there is a vacuum, so the Inj Delta is > 58 by the amount of vacuum. For example: Boost = -12, so Inj Delta = 70 (70 - 12 = 58). At this point, no boost, so FP holds steady at "Des FP = 58". Inj Delta reads 70 due to the vacuum, however the rail pressure remains 58 (as desired).

When you are in boost, it changes...now the rail is getting pressure from both the Manifold and the fuel pump. The goal to maintain 58psi in the rail...so the fuel pump has to reduce pressure to compensate for the boost . I see my Inj delta match up with FP at 0psi, when i go into boost the FP starts to reduce pressure to maintain 58psi in the rail. So when i get to 13psi of boost, the FP has to back down 13psi (result 45 psi).

This would explain why i see no difference w/my BAP on the ZL1 pump... because it doesn't need it. It is maintaining 58psi at the rail w/o the BAP. It would also explain why my AFR stays rich throughout my pull.

If my new theory is right, then PQ running 48psi @ 7.5psi is actually maintaining 55.5psi of pressure in the rail...

I think this makes sense, but it would be nice for someone w/a clue to confirm.

The only thing it doesn't explain is why the duty cycle on my pump stays at 99.6%...has to be something in the whipple tune i'm missing.
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Old 01-19-2013, 05:08 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PMJ View Post
So i'm now convinced I don't have a clue what I'm looking at/doing . I just put my Inj Delta on the same scale as my FP and what do you know...all of a sudden things are starting to click (maybe).

If i understand what I've been reading...Inj Delta + Boost = Desired FP.

When you are not in boost, there is a vacuum, so the Inj Delta is > 58 by the amount of vacuum. For example: Boost = -12, so Inj Delta = 70 (70 - 12 = 58). At this point, no boost, so FP holds steady at "Des FP = 58". Inj Delta reads 70 due to the vacuum, however the rail pressure remains 58 (as desired).

When you are in boost, it changes...now the rail is getting pressure from both the Manifold and the fuel pump. The goal to maintain 58psi in the rail...so the fuel pump has to reduce pressure to compensate for the boost . I see my Inj delta match up with FP at 0psi, when i go into boost the FP starts to reduce pressure to maintain 58psi in the rail. So when i get to 13psi of boost, the FP has to back down 13psi (result 45 psi).

This would explain why i see no difference w/my BAP on the ZL1 pump... because it doesn't need it. It is maintaining 58psi at the rail w/o the BAP. It would also explain why my AFR stays rich throughout my pull.

If my new theory is right, then PQ running 48psi @ 7.5psi is actually maintaining 55.5psi of pressure in the rail...

I think this makes sense, but it would be nice for someone w/a clue to confirm.

The only thing it doesn't explain is why the duty cycle on my pump stays at 99.6%...has to be something in the whipple tune i'm missing.
So basically the injectors get that boost pressure as a sort of back pressure?

Hmmmmm.......... interesting.

Yes, can someone confirm?

I do know that a liquid compresses differently than air. So I don't know if this is plausible..... ???


But it's definitely thread worthy if we can learn something.
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Old 01-19-2013, 06:45 PM   #132
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Here is my reference material i referred too...Boost-a-pump theorly explained (unfortunately it is focused on Ford): http://www.kennebell.net/KBWebsite/C...heory_kens.pdf

It states Fuel Rail Presure - Manifold Pressure = Nozzle outlet pressure (or Delta Pressure).

So I can only assume the PID for FP SAE on the Camaro is missleading as I don't think it is an indication of pressure at the fuel rail.

My inj delta pressure is 45psi @ 13psi of boost, so my Fuel Rail Presure has to be 58psi. Right?

I may go buy an analog fuel rail pressure gauge just to confirm...not sure yet how i'll read it at 100mph


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Old 01-19-2013, 08:04 PM   #133
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It's pretty simple really-

I use:

[PID.6512.PSI]-([PID.51.PSI]-[PID.11.PSI])

In other words:

Rail_Pressure = Delta_Pressure_Injector-(Atmospheric_Pressure - MAP_Pressure)

I won't get into the crappy choice of variable names, but essentially Rail_Pressure is that 58psi goal the fuel system aspires to keep by varying Delta_Pressure_Injector for the conditions of Atmospheric_Pressure and MAP_Pressure. This should be obvious when you consider a normally aspirated car at WOT: MAP values approach atmospheric and that term on the right gets very close to zero, and the data logs will show that Delta_Pressure_Injector get very close to 58 psi

HP Tuner variables can automatically switch to a desired units by specifying the units after the PID in programming struct fashion, ie - variable.<units>, which is important in this case because we always look at MAP and atmospheric pressure values in kPa, but for fuel, we look at lbf/in2.
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Old 01-20-2013, 01:05 AM   #134
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Old 01-20-2013, 01:07 AM   #135
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Sorry, had to. lol

I started a thread about it.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=271998
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Old 01-20-2013, 09:45 AM   #136
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Quote:
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Here is my reference material i referred too...Boost-a-pump theorly explained (unfortunately it is focused on Ford): http://www.kennebell.net/KBWebsite/C...heory_kens.pdf

It states Fuel Rail Presure - Manifold Pressure = Nozzle outlet pressure (or Delta Pressure).

So I can only assume the PID for FP SAE on the Camaro is missleading as I don't think it is an indication of pressure at the fuel rail.

My inj delta pressure is 45psi @ 13psi of boost, so my Fuel Rail Presure has to be 58psi. Right?

I may go buy an analog fuel rail pressure gauge just to confirm...not sure yet how i'll read it at 100mph


I kinda get what your getting at but what's the down side to having the zl1 pump and the MSD bap? If your saying that the MSD is not kicking in , is it not adjustable to get it to come on sooner and get the FP back to 58 at the fuel rails ? Also as a back up to maybe if the FP was starting to fail wouldn't it be ok to have the MSD bap there as a back up ? I have both but not near the power level your at so it's not been an issue for me yet.
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Old 11-27-2013, 10:53 AM   #137
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I don't remember if this was ever summed up, but my quick summary is if you install a supercharger on a SS, your fuel pressure will not be able to keep up. My experience is the BAPs are useless with the stock SS FPCM. I saw the same fuel pressure results whether it was on or not.

My personal results:
- BAP is useless on our SS cars
- The stock FP will drop for every # of boost...i.e. when I made 12# boost, my FP dropped to 46#.
- The ZL1 FP w/Andy's ADM FPCM resolved my fuel pressure issues. Hold a stead 58# now.

Andy recommends a more robust fuel system above 750 rwhp, but i'm still running this solution today at ~850 rwhp (manual) with no drops in pressure.
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Old 11-27-2013, 12:26 PM   #138
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Would a ZL1 FP with a MSD BAP (together) give similar results as above?
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Old 11-27-2013, 12:48 PM   #139
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Would a ZL1 FP with a MSD BAP (together) give similar results as above?
I think Andy told me the BAP would work with his fpcm, but I never saw the need. There is no reason to have a BAP unless your FP isn't able to maintain pressure. I personally wouldn't recommend a BAP for any gen 5.
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Old 11-27-2013, 02:50 PM   #140
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I think Andy told me the BAP would work with his fpcm, but I never saw the need. There is no reason to have a BAP unless your FP isn't able to maintain pressure. I personally wouldn't recommend a BAP for any gen 5.


Honestly FPCM is simple to install aswell, plug and play then send it off to get tuned...to easy. I have a zl1 pump & FPCM and my fuel pressure is great with 11lbs of boost and 640hp/639tq rw.

I also heard of running a BAP, zl1 pump, and FPCM without problem. My tuner said no need.
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Old 04-16-2014, 03:22 PM   #141
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Ok so I've cut my door to swap pumps. Can I buy a ZL1 pump and drop it in or do I need the other goodies?
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Old 04-16-2014, 04:33 PM   #142
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Ok so I've cut my door to swap pumps. Can I buy a ZL1 pump and drop it in or do I need the other goodies?
Should be a direct replacement as far as the pump goes, but in order to command the ramp up for the extra fuel pressure, you need ADM's FPCM and to have it turned on in the tune.
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Old 04-16-2014, 04:34 PM   #143
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Ok so I've cut my door to swap pumps. Can I buy a ZL1 pump and drop it in or do I need the other goodies?
You need a new fpcm. Updated tune, and then your set.
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Old 04-16-2014, 04:37 PM   #144
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Ok.

My pistons just got coated so things will start to ramp up fast. I am putting bigger injectors in as well. So it is going to have to be tuned before I can drive it anyway.

Why the need for a FPCM?

*I'm sure this has been asked but consider it a bump in info, haha*
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Old 04-16-2014, 04:43 PM   #145
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Ok.

My pistons just got coated so things will start to ramp up fast. I am putting bigger injectors in as well. So it is going to have to be tuned before I can drive it anyway.

Why the need for a FPCM?

*I'm sure this has been asked but consider it a bump in info, haha*
The stock fpcm assumes a stock pump so you won't get any advantage. The adm fpcm is a customized zl1 fpcm designed for the zl1 pump. It also allows the BAP to work unlike the stock fpcm.
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Old 04-16-2014, 05:04 PM   #146
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Just dropping in the ZL1 pump gives you a 30% increase in fuel flow at the same voltage. Then you can get another 30% more flow by upping the voltage to the pump.
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Old 04-17-2014, 01:30 PM   #147
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The stock fpcm assumes a stock pump so you won't get any advantage. The adm fpcm is a customized zl1 fpcm designed for the zl1 pump. It also allows the BAP to work unlike the stock fpcm.
So then my current BAP will not work unless I swap FPCMs?

If I understand here, the ZL1 pump will only provide the levels of performance that a stock one will if I use the stock FPCM? Is not a more powerful pump just that, more powerful? Regulating fuel pressure doesn't change from an operational standpoint does it?


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Just dropping in the ZL1 pump gives you a 30% increase in fuel flow at the same voltage. Then you can get another 30% more flow by upping the voltage to the pump.
That's without a new control module?
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Old 04-17-2014, 03:30 PM   #148
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In order to take advantage of the pump fully you need to replace the FPCM . Its a simple plug and play. Then when your tuned they can make proper provisions. Youve gone this far finish it right!
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Old 04-17-2014, 03:57 PM   #149
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So then my current BAP will not work unless I swap FPCMs?

If I understand here, the ZL1 pump will only provide the levels of performance that a stock one will if I use the stock FPCM? Is not a more powerful pump just that, more powerful? Regulating fuel pressure doesn't change from an operational standpoint does it?


That's without a new control module?
MSD BAP works great when hooked up correctly with no need for a new FPCM. If you didn't already have a BAP then the FPCM is a cheaper way to go and it is also a voltage booster.

Just dropping in a ZL1 pump will increase flow ~30% by itself. That is both the increase GMPP claims and what we have tested. Running it to higher voltage is where it shines though.
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Old 04-17-2014, 11:51 PM   #150
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received my zl1 fuel pump yesterday, and ordered the fpcm module today not taking any chance with drop in fuel pressure when get the 2.9 whipple on my ss next month.
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