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Old 09-23-2013, 11:04 AM   #1
kjkjr27
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Project: Building a 12sec N/A LLT

Disclaimer: I understand that are far easier ways and cheaper ways to get these cars into the 12 sec range ex. Nitrous but that takes away from the whole point of the title. So please if you have nothing nice to say or can't contribute then please don't waste our time and post. However if you feel like it may not work please be nice about it and try to give some reasons as to why


So for the longest time I had this idea in my head. I have always wondered if it would be possible to get these cars into the 12s without going FI. And of course when I say into the 12s I mean breaking 13 flat so like 12.99999 lol. I know it may be a long shot considering the known fastest N/A LLT to me is ROD1 who has gone 13.42@103.22. I know it may be a long shot but I am curious to see if it can be done and I know it will require some $$$ lol.


As of right now my fastest pass is a 13.564@102.51. That was with a D.A of 1186. Now my mods on this pass included:

Rotofab CAI with Apex Scoop
Vmax Ported Throttle Body
Mace Stage 3 Ported Intake
Plenum Spacer
Vmax Black Ice-olator
BBK Long Tube headers with HFCs
Trifecta Tune
LS3 Midpipe with MRT v2
20x10 Nurburgrings all round with General Gmax tires
Pfadt Trailing Arms and Outer Trailing Arm Bushings
LSR Front and Rear Sway Bars
Gasket matched head ports (not sure if this makes a difference)
LSR Toe Rods
Megan Racing Coilovers
MT DR's and Skinnies
Took off roughly 294lbs (this includes the weight of the skinnies)



Everything I have done so far for weight loss can be see here (I'll try to keep this updated as I go):

Quote:
Originally Posted by kjkjr27 View Post

Red= weight loss Green=Weight Gain

Starting Weight: 3749 _________Estimated Weight: ~3503 --> 3600 with full tank
Weight Loss: 246lbs

Exhaust: Stock:48lbs MRT v2:19lbs --> 29lbs
Wheels: Stock:124.6lbs Nurburgrings 20x10: 98lbs --> 26.6lbs
Pirellis: Stock: 136lbs General G-Max 275/40/20: 120lbs --> 16lbs
Lug Nuts: Stock: 3.14lbs Black Acorn Gorilla Locks: 2.38lbs --> 0.76lbs
Engine Cover: --> 2.5lbs
Washer Bottle: 2lbs (empty) Apex Scoop and W/W Relocator (empty) 4lbs -->2lbs
Spare Tire and Kit: --> 47.1lbs
Rx Catch Can --> 1.12lbs
Rx Black Ice-olator and Plenum Spacer --> 1.22lbs
Valve Covers (removing felt and oil extension tube) --> 1.19lbs
Misc. Engine Stuff: --> 1.4lbs
Stock Pedals: 0.15lbs Powdercoated Billet Pedals: 0.65lbs --> 0.5lbs
Stock Rotors (front and rear) : 76.83lbs R1 slotted/drilled Rotors (front and rear): 73.76lbs --> 3.14lbs
Remove Front Dash Speaker--> 0.68lbs
Stock Headers and Cats:39lbs Ceramic Coated BBK Lts w/ HFC: 28.38 -->11.62lbs
Stock Trailing arm and outer bushings: 6.06lbs Pfadt Trailing Arms and outer bushings: 5.12lbs --> 0.94lbs
Stock Sway Bars: 11.74lbs LSR Sway Bars: 15.58lbs --> 3.84lbs
Remove Rear Seat: --> -41.93lbs
Stock bars: 41.28lbs HMR Custom Bars: 19.01lbs --> -22.3lbs
Stock Toe Rods: 4.16lbs LSR Toe Rods: 2.5lbs --> 1.66lbs
Stock Struts/Springs: 61.74lbs Megan Racing Coilovers: 43.04lbs --> 18.7lbs
Stock Battery: 45.15lbs Braille 17lb Battery: 16.85lbs --> 28.3lbs
Stock Grill with Bowtie and RS badge: 2.75lbs Heritage Grill: 2.13lbs --> 0.63lbs


I know a lot more is needed to even get close to this goal and as of now I have a couple things in mind to help get me there (or anyone for that matter). Now some of these things I have already looked into and can be done while others may need a bit more research. So far this is what I have been thinking of adding:

Performance
SLP 25% Underdrive Pulley
DSS Aluminum 1-piece Driveshaft
Dyno tune with Hp Tuners
Rear Subframe Inserts/Bushings
Rear Upper Control Arm Bushings
LFX Intake Swap
Driver Mod

Weight Loss
1-piece driveshaft
Driver Mod
Optic Armour Windshield and Side windows (loss of ~14lbs)


One tricky thing about this is my car must maintain all the comfort features for daily driving and I do not want the interior all torn out.


I am hoping some of you can help and add things to the list that I either forgot about or don't know about. Figured this would be a cool thing to come together on as a community. Sadly in the next two months my car will be going into storage so things may not get interesting for awhile, but that gives me a lot of time to research haha. I am determined to see if this is possible lol even if it will take awhile.


Useful links:
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161969
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=356418

Weight loss
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=170965
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=267027
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Old 09-23-2013, 11:09 AM   #2
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Gears, 3.91 or 4.10. A Mustang V6 van get into 12's N/A but needs at least 3.73 gears and they have a 300 lbs advantage.
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Old 09-23-2013, 11:19 AM   #3
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If RacnJcn's "Adaptolator" pans out, you may be able to put his ported LFX IM (also in development). That should be good for a few pounds and could possibly flow as well as, or better than, the Stage 3 LLT IM...
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Old 09-23-2013, 11:24 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumForceGB View Post
Gears, 3.91 or 4.10. A Mustang V6 van get into 12's N/A but needs at least 3.73 gears and they have a 300 lbs advantage.
That would require me to upgrade to the SS rear end though right in order to have those?

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If RacnJcn's "Adaptolator" pans out, you may be able to put his ported LFX IM (also in development). That should be good for a few pounds and could possibly flow as well as, or better than, the Stage 3 LLT IM...
True, if I remember correctly the LFX manifold is like 11lbs lighter than the LLT one.
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Old 09-23-2013, 11:31 AM   #5
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You can remove the passanger seat when going to the track...that weighs more than the rear seat.
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Old 09-23-2013, 11:35 AM   #6
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Yeah, its an expensive upgrade. I plan on upgrading mine to a 1LE diff, but I want an 11 second car.
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Old 09-23-2013, 11:35 AM   #7
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Quote:
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That would require me to upgrade to the SS rear end though right in order to have those?
Yes it would. And if i am not mistaken it also would require a new drive shaft which you already plan on doing one so that shouldn't be a huge issue.
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Old 09-23-2013, 11:44 AM   #8
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Kevin, as much as I too would love to see either you or I get into the 12's running N/A, personally I don't see it happening. Either you will need to drop another approx. 400 - 600 lbs from the current weight. Or find another 40 - 60 HP. Neither which I think can happen.

I too have damn near every bolt on. Only thing missing is the SLP Pulley. That is not going to add much and is not worth the time, effort and return for me to invest into this mod.

My opinion for many of these other mods are as follow:

Driveshaft; good idea, but expensive.

IPF tune; not going to get you much more than the Trifecta tune you currently have today.

Tie Rods; minimum amount of extra help for our builds.

Coilovers; minimum amount of extra help for our builds.

Stall Convertor; great idea but has not proved out for our builds to be of any help.

Mace Cams; not a true bolt on, I am not looking into these, and from what I have seen have not proven themselves out as a end all cure all for some worth the cost HP.

Skinnies and slicks, now you’re talking some real help. Look at the top few on the drag list and you will see they were sharing the same set-up for their passes.

Driver mod; check back in a year and I might have something for this one, and I will leave it at that. Could be worth a tenth or two in my pass.

Taking out the back seat is worth approx.. 30 lbs. unless you remove some seatbelts and brackets too.

Battery will save some weight but not that great of an idea for a daily driver.

Yes, in order to get to the 3.91 or 4.10 gears you will need an SS rear end. But your feul economy will suffer for the good of a few passes and a quicker ET. I thought about this one too, but my Camaro is not a drag racing car first, so why make that much of a sacrifice for what I truly have it for (DD).

Good Luck, I will be following your ideas and build as it goes.

PS: I plan to be at the strip again soon and HOPE to generate a new PB. Time will tell.
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:30 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GretchenGotGrowl View Post
You can remove the passanger seat when going to the track...that weighs more than the rear seat.
Thanks for the advice, I don't mind doing stuff like that that can easily be put back together for daily driving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagnumForceGB View Post
Yeah, its an expensive upgrade. I plan on upgrading mine to a 1LE diff, but I want an 11 second car.
Good luck

Quote:
Originally Posted by rtcat600man View Post
Kevin, as much as I too would love to see either you or I get into the 12's running N/A, personally I don't see it happening. Either you will need to drop another approx. 400 - 600 lbs from the current weight. Or find another 40 - 60 HP. Neither which I think can happen.

I too have damn near every bolt on. Only thing missing is the SLP Pulley. That is not going to add much and is not worth the time, effort and return for me to invest into this mod.

My opinion for many of these other mods are as follow:

Driveshaft; good idea, but expensive.

IPF tune; not going to get you much more than the Trifecta tune you currently have today.

Tie Rods; minimum amount of extra help for our builds.

Coilovers; minimum amount of extra help for our builds.

Stall Convertor; great idea but has not proved out for our builds to be of any help.

Mace Cams; not a true bolt on, I am not looking into these, and from what I have seen have not proven themselves out as a end all cure all for some worth the cost HP.

Skinnies and slicks, now you’re talking some real help. Look at the top few on the drag list and you will see they were sharing the same set-up for their passes.

Driver mod; check back in a year and I might have something for this one, and I will leave it at that. Could be worth a tenth or two in my pass.

Taking out the back seat is worth approx.. 30 lbs. unless you remove some seatbelts and brackets too.

Battery will save some weight but not that great of an idea for a daily driver.

Yes, in order to get to the 3.91 or 4.10 gears you will need an SS rear end. But your feul economy will suffer for the good of a few passes and a quicker ET. I thought about this one too, but my Camaro is not a drag racing car first, so why make that much of a sacrifice for what I truly have it for (DD).

Good Luck, I will be following your ideas and build as it goes.

PS: I plan to be at the strip again soon and HOPE to generate a new PB. Time will tell.
Mike unfortunately you are prob 100% right. It may be impossible to do. Even if it isn't me personally doing it it would be cool to see if this can help out someone be able to do it.

I don't mind people saying it isn't posibble as long as they give a reason as to why they think so. I put in the disclaimer to hopefully prevent all the trolling and other nonsense people love to post on these forums.
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Old 09-23-2013, 12:44 PM   #10
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Kevin what was the 60 ft on your pass at Indy?

I personally do see it being a possibility. And if I had the funds, I'd already have tried it. But it hinges on one thing. LMR willing to tackle the dyno tuning on anything I throw their way.

Here's why I say this. If LMR is willing to dyno tune the mace cams, I think it's possible. Reason I mention LMR is because I fully believe a true dyno tune is best over a mail order tune. If the dyno testing of the mace cams wasn't a fluke and theirs at least a 30hp gain to be had, it becomes something more attainable. Let's just say theoretically we r going with the 10hp = .1 reduction in ET or 100 lbs = .1 reduction in ET. Adding the possible 30+ hp of the cams reduces your et by .3. I don't see how you can't gain some ET with some proper traction and some more ET with some weight reduction. I fully believe that a proper converter on these cars will help (Read: not rx trash) and if it does, I think 12s is attainable.

This is all speculation and hopeful thinking from me though.

Either way, I think the mods with the most impact if you're aiming for that 12 second slip are good tires, a good converter, and cams (if the gains weren't a fluke)
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Old 09-23-2013, 01:05 PM   #11
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My 60ft on that pass was 2.099
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Old 09-23-2013, 01:07 PM   #12
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A 1.9 to 1.8 will give you some better et
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Old 09-23-2013, 01:24 PM   #13
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Hoping the trailing arms and outer bushings help. I know the track was prepped beautifully down in Indy. Unfortunately the one near me not so much
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Old 09-23-2013, 01:52 PM   #14
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I too am looking for that 12.99 pass. The biggest gains you will see will be from gearing, and drag wheels with skinnies up front. After fully bolting on the car, start working on reducing weight. Ie carbon hood, trunk, fenders, and doors if you feel froggy. Weight is the biggest disadvantage us V6s have. PFADT suspension will help in more consistent times, and weight savings. Good luck brotha!
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Old 09-23-2013, 02:27 PM   #15
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Was the car that achieved a 13.42@103.22 FULLY bolted on? Is your goal to reach 12.999 in full street trim? Lastly, any chance of getting negative DA in your area?
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Old 09-23-2013, 02:37 PM   #16
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Interesting thread, although one we have had discussions about here on this board already.

I definitely feel like a very low 13 second pass (say 13.1 - 13.2 range) should be entirely possible without going too nuts on a custom N/A V6 build but I also have a feeling that we will never see that 12.999 pass.

One or two V6 Mustangs have done it. Here is the video of the one I'm familiar with:


Here is a description of mods from the youtube page: The car has the following mods: C&L CAI, AM/Bama 93H tune, BBK LT's with matching O/R X-pipe, Flowmaster 'Force II' axleback with a set of stock '11 GT resonators welded in (to tame the sound), 3.73 gears, J&M LCA's, Shaftmasters aluminum driveshaft, Steeda shifter, Spec Stage 1 clutch, 17" Race Star wheels, M&H bias ply front tires and 26x11.5x17 M/T ET Street bias ply rear tires.

If you watch the passes, you will see that his launches are incredibly hard. That car just hooks up and goes and I feel that is exactly what you are going to have to do to even get close to a super low 13 or high 12. With an automatic transmission, that means that a proper stall will absolutely be necessary, a long with drag radials and skinnies. It doesn't appear that he has much air in those rears either to give him maximum traction.

In my opinion you have a great list of mod ideas in your first post that will help out a lot. But I feel there are a few things you should pass on, such as the cams, IAT relocations, and the under drive pulley.

Wheels/tires, suspension (which you seem to mostly have covered) and gearing will be your best bet. I'd go with the 3.91s, but as rtcat600man has pointed out, the gears are going to hurt you mpg quite a bit, and if you do a stall that could also hurt your driveability, so you are going to have to be the one to make those decisions. If you don't mind the hit on driveability, and the possible hit on resale later on then by all means mod to your heart's content lol.

Removing some temporary weight (the seats) sounds great as well.

Last but not least, track prep, and the DA where you run will be another big factor in your pursuit which unfortunately may never be exactly what you need.
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Old 09-23-2013, 02:39 PM   #17
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I too am looking for that 12.99 pass. The biggest gains you will see will be from gearing, and drag wheels with skinnies up front. After fully bolting on the car, start working on reducing weight. Ie carbon hood, trunk, fenders, and doors if you feel froggy. Weight is the biggest disadvantage us V6s have. PFADT suspension will help in more consistent times, and weight savings. Good luck brotha!
Everything I do is going to be weight cautious.

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Was the car that achieved a 13.42@103.22 FULLY bolted on? Is your goal to reach 12.999 in full street trim? Lastly, any chance of getting negative DA in your area?
Not 100% sure but here is what I got from the v6 1/4 mile fast list:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61392

According to that he has: DRs/Skinnies, Injen CAI, ARH Longtubes/High Flow Cats, SS Axle Back, Trifecta Tune with a 1.950 60ft.

It is possible to get negative DA here, I have run in around -600DA last year. I do plan on keeping the car street legal since it is my DD when it is not winter.
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Old 09-23-2013, 02:46 PM   #18
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I prob won't end getting the cams but why do you think the IAT relocation and pulley would be a waste KM?
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Old 09-23-2013, 02:48 PM   #19
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Get your self some nice light weight racing seats and remove the back seat. Also Carbon fiber doors should cut around 50-100 lbs I would think (could be wrong) but are like $1000 each!! look at replacing your glass rear and side windows with lexon that should save a bunch of weight too
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Old 09-23-2013, 02:49 PM   #20
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Id still love to see one of you NA guys go with a stroker kit.... Thats where the power is at!
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Old 09-23-2013, 02:50 PM   #21
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Get your self some nice light weight racing seats and remove the back seat. Also Carbon fiber doors should cut around 50-100 lbs I would think (could be wrong) but are like $1000 each!! look at replacing your glass rear and side windows with lexon that should save a bunch of weight too
O you just reminded me! Opti Armour makes a light weight windshield that is 14lbs lighter. They also make side windows too. Unfortunately their rear window doesn't have the defrosters and other stuff so I wouldn't replace that.
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Old 09-23-2013, 02:51 PM   #22
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Carbon Fiber doors? I think at some point there needs to be a diminishing value on the return. Im all for getting a sixxer into the 12's, but $2000 in doors is extreme IMO. Could always buy a 2011 Mustang j/k
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Old 09-23-2013, 02:55 PM   #23
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I'm no v6 expert and not trying to act like I am. But I'd think 4.10 gears and and a 3600 sta with some weight reduction and sticky tires should help you a lot
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Old 09-23-2013, 02:55 PM   #24
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I prob won't end getting the cams but why do you think the IAT relocation and pulley would be a waste KM?
pulley isn't exactly a waste, but seems like a lot of work for what might get you 5 or 6 HP at peak. Then again, like I said before, if you are in pursuit of every extra horsepower available, then go for it.

As for the IAT, I feel like once you swapped out intakes, this probably really doesn't help much at all. I guess maybe it is possible it could help at the track, where you may end up sitting in line while you are staging for your run and moving the temp sensor to a location in a low part of the intake box could read slightly lower temps than the intake/throttle body tube.
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Old 09-23-2013, 03:05 PM   #25
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doors

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Originally Posted by blackTT600 View Post
Get your self some nice light weight racing seats and remove the back seat. Also Carbon fiber doors should cut around 50-100 lbs I would think (could be wrong) but are like $1000 each!! look at replacing your glass rear and side windows with lexon that should save a bunch of weight too
Going exotic on the door material is not good safety practice. But I do agree these things are like a tank hatch. But the list is a good start. I would think you will get close. maybe removeing the IRS with a solid 10 bolt rear end (No lincoln Locker) would take off some weight, then you can add any gear you want. But that is alot more work envolved.
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