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Old 11-27-2012, 12:24 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Synner View Post
+1
I don't think anyone is saying stay stock, most of us don't and that is because we have different needs and wants from a car.

But to say stock sucks without having any basis, data, experience with it prior to your modifications. It is like saying brownies taste bad and should be out of vanilla when you never tried one in the first place.

If so cal went with his new 1le to his local track and said I pulled a 1 min lap, after which I swapped to the other set of wheels and shaved 2 seconds off, then we couldn't disagree with him making the right choice. The question then would be was it the nitto compound or the width or his driving style?

This is why vehicle dynamics is so exciting, there is never one right answer in the real world.

To the op's question, GM sort of stated they reduced the rear width to make the 1le more neutral and faster around the track => less under steer

They also stated they put heavy duty hubs to handle higher loads. Going more grip by either Tire size or compound could wreck havoc on other parts.

In theory on a flat road and no camber wider is better for grip. Now add camber, suspension geometry, tire optimal operating temps, various torques acting on center of tire vs. corner design and going wider, wheel mass etc. and wider is a waste of tire that creates significant disadvantages. Hence if Brian ran that bad boy camaro of his with 275s and the same tire compound at 315 with 2 sec a lap better I would say heck yeah! But if he ran same or worst I would say go lower width and play with something else.
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Old 11-27-2012, 12:57 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mgizzle View Post
I don't think anyone is saying stay stock, most of us don't and that is because we have different needs and wants from a car.

But to say stock sucks without having any basis, data, experience with it prior to your modifications. It is like saying brownies taste bad and should be out of vanilla when you never tried one in the first place.

If so cal went with his new 1le to his local track and said I pulled a 1 min lap, after which I swapped to the other set of wheels and shaved 2 seconds off, then we couldn't disagree with him making the right choice. The question then would be was it the nitto compound or the width or his driving style?

This is why vehicle dynamics is so exciting, there is never one right answer in the real world.

To the op's question, GM sort of stated they reduced the rear width to make the 1le more neutral and faster around the track => less under steer

They also stated they put heavy duty hubs to handle higher loads. Going more grip by either Tire size or compound could wreck havoc on other parts.

In theory on a flat road and no camber wider is better for grip. Now add camber, suspension geometry, tire optimal operating temps, various torques acting on center of tire vs. corner design and going wider, wheel mass etc. and wider is a waste of tire that creates significant disadvantages. Hence if Brian ran that bad boy camaro of his with 275s and the same tire compound at 315 with 2 sec a lap better I would say heck yeah! But if he ran same or worst I would say go lower width and play with something else.
My question is why do you care what someone else does with the car they bought....get over it...
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:19 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by So Cal Camaro View Post
My question is why do you care what someone else does with the car they bought....get over it...
Ummmm ......

Because the subject of this thread it 305 Tires ?????.
Because these threads are about learning from others.
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:33 AM   #54
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I figure it out. So Cal Camaro is a 10/10th's driver. I'm not.

So Cal, that's not a criticism. You probably are more into this than most of us ever will be.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:53 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by So Cal Camaro View Post
This isn't my first venture into driving cars and setting them up the way I want them, I don't care for the stretched tire and given the way I set this up with the Nitto's, it'll be the way I want it...stop worrying about what I'm doing...and worry about your own car's set up....
It wasn't intended as a personal attack on you or your preference in wheel/tire appearance.

Just a suggestion (with a little tech behind it) that running tires on wheels much narrower than the max-recommended width for the tire leaves a little performance potential on the table. And that even if the consensus on the appearance factor strongly favors a certain "look", that still doesn't mean that it's a universal opinion.

You have your priorities in this and mine are somewhat different. Other participants in this thread are entitled to read both and decide for themselves where to go from there.


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Old 11-27-2012, 07:17 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by white1LE View Post
But for the guys running an autocross track in a Wal-Mart parking lot around 50 orange cones, I highly doubt you will notice. Kudos to the guys that can feel the difference from a 1 inch narrower or wider tire!
Don't undervalue what autocrossing demands or what it can make evident simply because of the relatively low speeds involved. It is a VERY intense activity.

You might even notice the 1" more at auto-X, because that form of motorsports is much more about transient handling (where things like turn-in response matter the most) than running out on the big track is.


FWIW, even in fairly hard street driving it's possible to notice a 1" wheel width difference with the tire size held constant (or a 20mm difference in tire width on the same wheels) if you have the right sequence and spacing of corners and have some idea what to "feel" for.

Maybe almost 50 years of driving with an acknowledged "corner-carver" mindset really does count as applicable seat time. Maybe the difference in feel doesn't matter as much to everyone.


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Old 11-27-2012, 07:55 AM   #57
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On a side note...How many people bought the 1LE and AREN'T going to track it?
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Old 11-27-2012, 09:42 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by So Cal Camaro View Post
This isn't my first venture into driving cars and setting them up the way I want them, I don't care for the stretched tire and given the way I set this up with the Nitto's, it'll be the way I want it...stop worrying about what I'm doing...and worry about your own car's set up....
I think the contrasting comments are interesting. I dont think people are talking about your set up. As much as they are discussing the pro's and con's based on thier experiance. This is healthy and good plus add some interesting to that.
We are all different and this is what makes our car so exciting.
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:39 PM   #59
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Don't undervalue what autocrossing demands or what it can make evident simply because of the relatively low speeds involved. It is a VERY intense activity.

You might even notice the 1" more at auto-X, because that form of motorsports is much more about transient handling (where things like turn-in response matter the most) than running out on the big track is.


FWIW, even in fairly hard street driving it's possible to notice a 1" wheel width difference with the tire size held constant (or a 20mm difference in tire width on the same wheels) if you have the right sequence and spacing of corners and have some idea what to "feel" for.

Maybe almost 50 years of driving with an acknowledged "corner-carver" mindset really does count as applicable seat time. Maybe the difference in feel doesn't matter as much to everyone.


Norm
Thank you for this post. Most people that make comments about dodging cones in a parking lot have never autox or are diehard road racers.
If a car has handling issues good or bad an autox will bring it out in a car. You dont need triple digit speeds to know how a car will handle.
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Old 11-27-2012, 02:55 PM   #60
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Thank you for this post. Most people that make comments about dodging cones in a parking lot have never autox or are diehard road racers.
If a car has handling issues good or bad an autox will bring it out in a car. You dont need triple digit speeds to know how a car will handle.
Here is an example of that...
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Old 11-27-2012, 03:11 PM   #61
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Here is an example of that...
Damn
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Old 11-27-2012, 03:22 PM   #62
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That hurts to watch that. Definiatly driver error.
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Old 11-27-2012, 03:26 PM   #63
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I watched it happen...it is still painful to watch as we still autocross there regularly...
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Old 11-27-2012, 03:29 PM   #64
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I watched it happen...it is still painful to watch as we still autocross there regularly...
Hope the course has been moved over a tad...

EDIT: Never mind, just re watched the video there is also a light pole in the middle of the course.
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Old 11-27-2012, 06:35 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Mgizzle View Post

But to say stock sucks without having any basis, data, experience with it prior to your modifications. It is like saying brownies taste bad and should be out of vanilla when you never tried one in the first place.

They also stated they put heavy duty hubs to handle higher loads. Going more grip by either Tire size or compound could wreck havoc on other parts.
Believe it or not people have raced before the 1LE came into existence. It won't be breaking the laws of physics. Stock sucks, it's filled with compromise. Most drivers won't ever find the true limits of the car, only their driving. It doesn't mean stock doesn't suck, it means they're not good behind the wheel.

And if you're scared of grip don't race a car. More of the paranoia again. It sounds like you've never raced anything in your life. Grip wreaking havoc on a race car? Really? Racing is hard on parts, don't be scared.
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Old 11-27-2012, 08:46 PM   #66
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I think many will be looking for a compromise of a show and go car. The issue is, why spend the $3,500. if the look your going for negates the 1LE package?
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:40 AM   #67
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Here is an example of that...
Holy S! I'm glad he was OK per the YouTube notes. I guess this is why helmets are worn, huh?

I once saw something similar to this at an SCCA race. A guy with a brand new 1987 Porche 911 was in the straight s curve much like this video and as he turned to the left then to the right and back left again the car went up on the right side and slid off the track along the passenger side. He finally went into a ravine off track on way to the bordering farm and landed on his roof.

The YouTube notes made it sound like he didn't brake. Do you know if that's true? Other comments said the track and his tires were cold.
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:50 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Synner View Post
Believe it or not people have raced before the 1LE came into existence. It won't be breaking the laws of physics. Stock sucks, it's filled with compromise. Most drivers won't ever find the true limits of the car, only their driving. It doesn't mean stock doesn't suck, it means they're not good behind the wheel.

And if you're scared of grip don't race a car. More of the paranoia again. It sounds like you've never raced anything in your life. Grip wreaking havoc on a race car? Really? Racing is hard on parts, don't be scared.
Synner, maybe another view is this video from hookedondriving.com. I posted this above in reply to So Cal Camaro. He raises a good point. Most stock cars should only be driving 7/10ths. A car modified for track can be driven 10/10ths and even 11/10ths (whatever the heck he meant by that). Anyway, this thread has gotten blown out of proportion a bit. If someone has the dough to roll his own 10/10ths car, then "Good on him" as the Kiwi's say. And if someone wants to be a 7/10th driver then "Good on him" too.

Maybe, just maybe, what's been lost in this thread is a difference of the user. Some people may be 7/10ths users and some may be 10/10ths uses. Neither are wrong. Just different.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/ut3t2is-Gt4
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Old 11-28-2012, 12:51 AM   #69
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It was cold that day, but it was not his first run of the session...he throttled it coming off the last cone with traction control off on those run flats...and he never hit the brakes
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Old 11-28-2012, 01:15 AM   #70
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Who was the Jackass who desingned that course??? Might as well thrown some trees in there too!!! I'm glad the guy is ok!!!
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Old 11-28-2012, 06:55 AM   #71
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At least within SCCA there are guidelines for the distance from the course line to fixed objects. But even so, if the driver forgets "in a spin, both feet in" there's no telling what might follow.

Or to whom. A few years ago, I watched a just-out-of-the-trophies National-level driver run a Corvette over a low curb after going through the finish timing light.

Somewhat more recently, I saw a small FWD sedan end up on its roof toward the end of a slalom.

Which brings it around to there being a damn good reason for wearing helmets at speeds ranging from 20 mph to 60 or a bit more. I cringe when I see some of the "Pro-Touring"-oriented autocrosses where drivers (sometimes with helmetless passengers as well) aren't wearing them. I'd wear mine anyway. Or request an event refund and leave if any attempt to discourage me from doing so was made.


To Chevy's tire & wheel choice - it's probably getting close to the edge of corporate standards on handling, which will be at least a little more conservative than what an experienced autocrosser or track day enthusiast would still be comfortable with. Chevy has to tune a car's handling with the idea that there will be several thousand drivers, all of unknown skill. People like So Cal, Brian, myself (and a couple others in this thread so far) really only have to tune for one . . .



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Old 12-01-2012, 11:47 AM   #72
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Synner, maybe another view is this video from hookedondriving.com. I posted this above in reply to So Cal Camaro. He raises a good point. Most stock cars should only be driving 7/10ths. A car modified for track can be driven 10/10ths and even 11/10ths (whatever the heck he meant by that). Anyway, this thread has gotten blown out of proportion a bit. If someone has the dough to roll his own 10/10ths car, then "Good on him" as the Kiwi's say. And if someone wants to be a 7/10th driver then "Good on him" too.

Maybe, just maybe, what's been lost in this thread is a difference of the user. Some people may be 7/10ths users and some may be 10/10ths uses. Neither are wrong. Just different.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/ut3t2is-Gt4
Well said!!!!
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Old 12-02-2012, 11:59 AM   #73
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Maybe, just maybe, what's been lost in this thread is a difference of the user. Some people may be 7/10ths users and some may be 10/10ths uses. Neither are wrong. Just different.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/ut3t2is-Gt4
User difference indeed.

Of course, once you've been at or above 7/10ths enough times you might have a harder time understanding why anybody would take a car specifically intended for the "2%-ers" - arguably better than 7/10ths level folks - and modify in the 6/10ths direction.


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Old 12-02-2012, 01:26 PM   #74
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User difference indeed.

Of course, once you've been at or above 7/10ths enough times you might have a harder time understanding why anybody would take a car specifically intended for the "2%-ers" - arguably better than 7/10ths level folks - and modify in the 6/10ths direction.


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Agreed.
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Old 12-02-2012, 05:35 PM   #75
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Well, to each his own. If someone buys one strictly for getting groceries, so be it. Even put snow tires on and drive it all winter long. Makes no difference. The important thing is to modify it and drive it the way you want to best fit your personal taste. Just enjoy every mile and keep it between the lines!
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