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Old 11-18-2012, 02:17 PM   #1
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Chevrolet Customer Support Of Individualism

Sites like Camaro5 clearly show the following for the current edition of the Chevrolet Camaro. In it's 5th version fans old and new and I don't mean age, display a passion for this iconic car that is rivaled by few. As a hot rod lover from a very young age I recall mentors of mine talking about the status symbol 1969 Camaro SS. Now that I'm old enough to own a Camaro SS I understand what the "old timers" always talked about.

With that said I want to ask this group why Chevrolet doesn't go the extra mile in support of these loyal and dare I say religious fans? My issue is with computer controlled cars and Chevrolet's inability or unwillingness to provide customers with programing modifications specific to individual cars. I am a proud owner of a 2010 Camaro and like most I want to make the car mine. I want to make changes to the car that in some way set it apart from the others be that body mods or drive train mods.

Here is my complaint. My car happens to be an automatic car with the L99 engine not the LS3, which is a whole other rant. I do NOT like the rear end gears that came with my car and I loose sleep thinking of the day I get them changed, which is very soon with 3:91's in the mail. If I want to make this change in a 1969 Camaro it would cost me about $10.00 for the new speedo gear and a little garage time. In the current car it will cost me some sort of after market program to make the cars computer correction.

With Chevrolet building off the shelf Hot Rods like the Corvette and Camaro in so many different versions like the Z06, 1LE, ZL1 and the Copo I just don't understand why I can't go to my local dealer and simply get my stock ECM flashed for a rear end gear change or a fuel system mod or even a cam shaft. I, as would I think most, even be OK with signing a waiver of liability for the attorneys or giving up a piece of my warranty for this service. I hate even loathe the fact that in order to make such a change to MY car the only way I can support that change is with an after market ECM program.

Chevrolet, I'm asking you to step up to the plate. If you're going to be in the hot rod business then be All In! Support your loyal customers and support us in making these types of modifications. Provide or allow your technicians with the ability to modify our cars & trucks ECM's for specific modifications such as gear changes. This isn't something you have to promote or advertise just don't make it taboo or illegal. This gear change will set my car apart and if I should ever want to sell this car I hate the fact that I will have to sell the new owner on an after market computer as well because Chevrolet is unwilling to support individualism.

Respectfully,

Michael W. Rader, Customer
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:36 PM   #2
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I completely understand why a car maker would not want to support mods that a car wasn't designed for. It sets them up for warranty issues and losing money. There are many high quality aftermarket companies that can handle what you're after. Gm massproduces cars. They are not in the business of customizing. C5 is a large group of people and many people on here mod there cars ,but far more don't mess the performance mods much past cat backs or CAI. Put simply, there is nothing in it for GM.
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:53 PM   #3
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no car manufacturer supports the warranty if you modify the motor, tune or otherwise.

The only difference between GM and everyone else is GM has been very forward and public about it because of these forums.

You will find that there is not one manufacturer out there that will warranty a motor that has had major changes made that change it's out of the factory setup.

Those that do get warranty coverage for various things even with mods are usually because they have a good relationship with their dealerships and some things get over looked especially if the dealer has people smart enough to know that a CAI doesn't cause a rear seal leak for example.

I have always been lucky in this respect because I am one of those with a good relationship with my dealer, but even with that, there is a point that they will deny me a warranty part if they know GM will deny them.


What most people just don't understand is that today's vehicles are not just cars, they are computers, and like every computer a minor change can cause a major problem.

To use a comparison some might understand take your average store bought HP computer with windows 7..

Changing something like a Video card or memory while in a lot of cases Windows 7 won't have an issue with the new equipment, in some cases the blue screen of death will appear because of incompadible software.

Change the video card, HP voids warranty, change the memory HP voids the warranty, change the hard drive, HP voids the warranty.

How does this differ from GM? it doesn't, you make changes that alter the factory setup and there is no way for GM to know that what you have done will not cause other issues. No 2 builds are alike, even if they are made with identical parts.
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:59 PM   #4
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no car manufacturer supports the warranty if you modify the motor, tune or otherwise.

The only difference between GM and everyone else is GM has been very forward and public about it because of these forums.

You will find that there is not one manufacturer out there that will warranty a motor that has had major changes made that change it's out of the factory setup.

Those that do get warranty coverage for various things even with mods are usually because they have a good relationship with their dealerships and some things get over looked especially if the dealer has people smart enough to know that a CAI doesn't cause a rear seal leak for example.

I have always been lucky in this respect because I am one of those with a good relationship with my dealer, but even with that, there is a point that they will deny me a warranty part if they know GM will deny them.


What most people just don't understand is that today's vehicles are not just cars, they are computers, and like every computer a minor change can cause a major problem.

To use a comparison some might understand take your average store bought HP computer with windows 7..

Changing something like a Video card or memory while in a lot of cases Windows 7 won't have an issue with the new equipment, in some cases the blue screen of death will appear because of incompadible software.

Change the video card, HP voids warranty, change the memory HP voids the warranty, change the hard drive, HP voids the warranty.

How does this differ from GM? it doesn't, you make changes that alter the factory setup and there is no way for GM to know that what you have done will not cause other issues. No 2 builds are alike, even if they are made with identical parts.
I'll just leave this here: http://www.fordracingparts.com/Announcements/News47.asp
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Old 11-18-2012, 03:03 PM   #5
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The only reason for the existence of the Camaro and the Corvette is to keep them competitive in those markets as they are a pretty decent revenue stream for GM.

Aside from that GM's focus is not crate motors and aftermarket racing parts (while they do have them, it is not a focus, and they will not be spending millions to warranty items people change). Ford and Chrysler have always had a big focus in these areas, they have subdivision parts companies for that purpose,
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Old 11-18-2012, 03:06 PM   #6
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The only reason for the existence of the Camaro and the Corvette is to keep them competitive in those markets as they are a pretty decent revenue stream for GM.

Aside from that GM's focus is not crate motors and aftermarket racing parts (while they do have them, it is not a focus, and they will not be spending millions to warranty items people change). Ford and Chrysler have always had a big focus in these areas, they have subdivision parts companies for that purpose,
I didn't say I disagreed with the premise. In fact, it is exactly this crap that might steer me towards the 370z when I buy in the next few months.
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Old 11-18-2012, 09:58 PM   #7
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Most aftermarket parts, for any car including the Camaro, have a warranty. However, that warranty is on those parts. And installing those parts, VOIDs the warranty on the car (at least for the components that are modified). So I don't see what this has to do with the OPs complaint.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:22 PM   #8
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Sites like Camaro5 clearly show the following for the current edition of the Chevrolet Camaro. In it's 5th version fans old and new and I don't mean age, display a passion for this iconic car that is rivaled by few. As a hot rod lover from a very young age I recall mentors of mine talking about the status symbol 1969 Camaro SS. Now that I'm old enough to own a Camaro SS I understand what the "old timers" always talked about.

With that said I want to ask this group why Chevrolet doesn't go the extra mile in support of these loyal and dare I say religious fans? My issue is with computer controlled cars and Chevrolet's inability or unwillingness to provide customers with programing modifications specific to individual cars. I am a proud owner of a 2010 Camaro and like most I want to make the car mine. I want to make changes to the car that in some way set it apart from the others be that body mods or drive train mods.

Here is my complaint. My car happens to be an automatic car with the L99 engine not the LS3, which is a whole other rant. I do NOT like the rear end gears that came with my car and I loose sleep thinking of the day I get them changed, which is very soon with 3:91's in the mail. If I want to make this change in a 1969 Camaro it would cost me about $10.00 for the new speedo gear and a little garage time. In the current car it will cost me some sort of after market program to make the cars computer correction.

With Chevrolet building off the shelf Hot Rods like the Corvette and Camaro in so many different versions like the Z06, 1LE, ZL1 and the Copo I just don't understand why I can't go to my local dealer and simply get my stock ECM flashed for a rear end gear change or a fuel system mod or even a cam shaft. I, as would I think most, even be OK with signing a waiver of liability for the attorneys or giving up a piece of my warranty for this service. I hate even loathe the fact that in order to make such a change to MY car the only way I can support that change is with an after market ECM program.

Chevrolet, I'm asking you to step up to the plate. If you're going to be in the hot rod business then be All In! Support your loyal customers and support us in making these types of modifications. Provide or allow your technicians with the ability to modify our cars & trucks ECM's for specific modifications such as gear changes. This isn't something you have to promote or advertise just don't make it taboo or illegal. This gear change will set my car apart and if I should ever want to sell this car I hate the fact that I will have to sell the new owner on an after market computer as well because Chevrolet is unwilling to support individualism.

Respectfully,

Michael W. Rader, Customer
Dont know if I missed it or not...but a Hyper Tec will do everything you want it to. No BS program in the mail or over the net. You can set what you want and select gears,tire size etc. Yes it will void your warranty. But its so easy to use.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:31 PM   #9
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Firerader...people have responded about warranties and legal restrictions. And at the heart of the issue: they hit the nail on the head.

Waivers and attorneys and lawyers are all well and good, but there is no guarantee that you'll never sell or be separated from the car. And then what about the new owner? Did they accept the restrictions you agreed to in case something goes horribly wrong?

Then...consider the amount of time, money, and effort it would require to develop a completely different ECM calibration to suit a "super-minority's" need. There are millions of parts combinations for this car...which setup to devote resources towards? What if it's not the one you're looking for, specifically?

I can understand your complaint...but I'm afraid it's just not valid today. Times have changed...both in terms of legislation and in terms of complexity of the car. EPA has a stranglehold on emissions requirements, and some aspect of cars today can be prohibitively complex to alter. A simple RPM tune may not seem like much....but GM/Chevy would have to spend inordinate amounts of money to have it validated by the powers that be...and as I mentioned above...if they spend money on two or three of these...what if it's not one that you want/need?

I would offer you this:

Chevrolet has supported the Camaro enthusiast communities in an amazing fashion since the car's return to showrooms. They have included enthusiasts directly in their decision-making process, supported shows and functions (like the Camaro5 Fest), and paid close attention to the modifications each individual owner has made to his/her car to help craft the factory "version". They've devoted time and money to some aftermarket companies to create works of enthusiasm like those shown at SEMA. On a personal note - they've flown and fed me so I'm able to drive and write about new Camaros like the ZL1 and 1LE for everyone here!

Last but not least...they're building the ultimate "canvas"...a phenomenal car of which the possibilities to modify are virtually endless!! I sometimes wonder if that's harder to do than to build "the perfect car"...

I probably didn't make you feel any better :(...you began your post with this statement: "With that said I want to ask this group why Chevrolet doesn't go the extra mile in support of these loyal and dare I say religious fans? "

And I wanted to propose that they have...just maybe not exactly in the way you wish.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:37 PM   #10
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The original post is absurd.
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Old 11-19-2012, 07:43 PM   #11
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Ok, thanks to all who responded. Now let me break down a couple key points I think many missed. If I owned a 1969 Camaro and wanted to make a rear end gear change not only could I get those gears from my dealer but the small mechanical gear to correct the speedo as well. The local dealer offered everything from cams and headers to full motor mods. Now not so much. Finally a key point in my post was if my local GM garage would support my use of GM performance parts like my gears I would agree to void my rear end warranty.
As far as nothing in it for GM I would say companies like Diablo, Hypertech, HP and so found something in it. GM marketing shouldn't be as near sighted as some of these posts.
Thanks all,
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Old 11-19-2012, 08:04 PM   #12
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Ok, thanks to all who responded. Now let me break down a couple key points I think many missed. If I owned a 1969 Camaro and wanted to make a rear end gear change not only could I get those gears from my dealer but the small mechanical gear to correct the speedo as well. The local dealer offered everything from cams and headers to full motor mods. Now not so much. Finally a key point in my post was if my local GM garage would support my use of GM performance parts like my gears I would agree to void my rear end warranty.
As far as nothing in it for GM I would say companies like Diablo, Hypertech, HP and so found something in it. GM marketing shouldn't be as near sighted as some of these posts.
Thanks all,

1969 vs. 2012.

in 1969 there were no computers in cars, no CAFE standards, and those that tuned and modded vehicles were professional mechanics with some sense of WTH they were doing.

in 1969 GM was in the heart of the horse power wars and in business to win over the American monster motor mentality.

in 2012 the Gov't has created CAFE standards, most vehicle are nothing more than rolling computers, and hand held tune devices can be loaded to a cars computer by any idiot with $500 to spend on one.

in 2012 GM's focus is to appease the MPG standards and build/sell vehicles to appease the world new focus on being "green" and economical.

The only group that still cares about monster horsepower and modding vehicles is a very small insignificant cliche of guys like us, and we don't generate enough revenue stream to make it worth while.

---

it's just not in the game plan for GM or for Chrysler so much any more, Mopar is slowing becoming a pimp your ride ghetto style company, most of their "aftermarket" division is appearance not performance.
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Old 11-19-2012, 08:37 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Firerader View Post
Sites like Camaro5 clearly show the following for the current edition of the Chevrolet Camaro. In it's 5th version fans old and new and I don't mean age, display a passion for this iconic car that is rivaled by few. As a hot rod lover from a very young age I recall mentors of mine talking about the status symbol 1969 Camaro SS. Now that I'm old enough to own a Camaro SS I understand what the "old timers" always talked about.

With that said I want to ask this group why Chevrolet doesn't go the extra mile in support of these loyal and dare I say religious fans? My issue is with computer controlled cars and Chevrolet's inability or unwillingness to provide customers with programing modifications specific to individual cars. I am a proud owner of a 2010 Camaro and like most I want to make the car mine. I want to make changes to the car that in some way set it apart from the others be that body mods or drive train mods.

Here is my complaint. My car happens to be an automatic car with the L99 engine not the LS3, which is a whole other rant. I do NOT like the rear end gears that came with my car and I loose sleep thinking of the day I get them changed, which is very soon with 3:91's in the mail. If I want to make this change in a 1969 Camaro it would cost me about $10.00 for the new speedo gear and a little garage time. In the current car it will cost me some sort of after market program to make the cars computer correction.

With Chevrolet building off the shelf Hot Rods like the Corvette and Camaro in so many different versions like the Z06, 1LE, ZL1 and the Copo I just don't understand why I can't go to my local dealer and simply get my stock ECM flashed for a rear end gear change or a fuel system mod or even a cam shaft. I, as would I think most, even be OK with signing a waiver of liability for the attorneys or giving up a piece of my warranty for this service. I hate even loathe the fact that in order to make such a change to MY car the only way I can support that change is with an after market ECM program.

Chevrolet, I'm asking you to step up to the plate. If you're going to be in the hot rod business then be All In! Support your loyal customers and support us in making these types of modifications. Provide or allow your technicians with the ability to modify our cars & trucks ECM's for specific modifications such as gear changes. This isn't something you have to promote or advertise just don't make it taboo or illegal. This gear change will set my car apart and if I should ever want to sell this car I hate the fact that I will have to sell the new owner on an after market computer as well because Chevrolet is unwilling to support individualism.

Respectfully,

Michael W. Rader, Customer
FYI, if you know a good GM customer service rep at a dealership there is a way to get 1LE gears installed on your car and have GM issue a computer recalibration for your specific VIN with the Gears. All work must be performed by the dealership but then your warranty will not be voided.
I have had this confirmed to me already by a very helpful and knowledgeable person that works for 3 different GM dealerships handling nothing other than warranty claims. She also confirmed this with one of the top guys at GM to make sure she could get this done for me. I have not done this yet because the car is put away for the winter now but come spring I'm planning on having the 1LE gears installed and the VCM reprogrammed by the dealership.
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Old 11-19-2012, 08:38 PM   #14
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in 2012 the Gov't has created CAFE standards, most vehicle are nothing more than rolling computers, and hand held tune devices can be loaded to a cars computer by any idiot with $500 to spend on one.

in 2012 GM's focus is to appease the MPG standards and build/sell vehicles to appease the world new focus on being "green" and economical.

The only group that still cares about monster horsepower and modding vehicles is a very small insignificant cliche of guys like us, and we don't generate enough revenue stream to make it worth while.
This post sums it up neatly.
Trying to compare 1969 to 2012 is way beyond apples and oranges. You cant even compare 1992 to 2012 in the automotive industry.
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Old 11-19-2012, 08:58 PM   #15
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This post sums it up neatly.
Trying to compare 1969 to 2012 is way beyond apples and oranges. You cant even compare 1992 to 2012 in the automotive industry.
Now we're getting close. It's not apples and oranges really. It's a willingness and legal ability of GM to do it. GM supported some aftermarket parts in 69. All I'm saying is in 2012 show a little of that same support namely the damn ECM. They have the technology they created it. I understand they have federal obligations but if I'm willing to pay for their expert service I just wish I had that choice.
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:02 PM   #16
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FYI, if you know a good GM customer service rep at a dealership there is a way to get 1LE gears installed on your car and have GM issue a computer recalibration for your specific VIN with the Gears. All work must be performed by the dealership but then your warranty will not be voided.
I have had this confirmed to me already by a very helpful and knowledgeable person that works for 3 different GM dealerships handling nothing other than warranty claims. She also confirmed this with one of the top guys at GM to make sure she could get this done for me. I have not done this yet because the car is put away for the winter now but come spring I'm planning on having the 1LE gears installed and the VCM reprogrammed by the dealership.
This is exactly what I want!
Thanks
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:19 PM   #17
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This is exactly what I want!
Thanks
If you talk to your customer service reps and they say it cannot be done let me know and I can get you into contact with the person I know that knows how to make it happen for you. She could then possibly call your local rep to clue them in on how to do this for you. Send me a PM if you need more info. I may not check this thread often enough to see a reply from you.
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:35 PM   #18
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Now we're getting close. It's not apples and oranges really. It's a willingness and legal ability of GM to do it. GM supported some aftermarket parts in 69. All I'm saying is in 2012 show a little of that same support namely the damn ECM. They have the technology they created it. I understand they have federal obligations but if I'm willing to pay for their expert service I just wish I had that choice.
They support performance products today.
In regards to your speedily issue I hope it gets solved like described above.
in a hypothetical world I wonder if it can be solved by finding a wheel and tire size with the right geometries.
if you change to 1LE rearend your new gm parts would have a warranty.
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Old 11-25-2012, 12:59 AM   #19
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Unless I'm mistaken, GM will perform the reprogramming for the new gears.
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