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Old 12-07-2012, 08:32 PM   #1
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HKE LSX 427 with D1SC is in!!! but WTFO?

Alright. Need some brainstorming here. Spent the last 2 days with my car down at SNL Performance. The motor is in, the Aeromotive eliminator, billet controller, return style fuel system is in a wired correctly. (Aeromotive needs to get their shit together in this respect!!!) Pump runs at low voltage until 5000rpm then kicks into high gear thru the speed controller.

All this went fine. We did the initial drivability tune (Pat Guerra is the tuner) about the best there is...google him!!

This was done thurday PM. Friday morning we figured out that a relay was required for the 16 gauge power wire to the FPSC. Without the relay the pump would fire up at key on, but the rail pressure would drop from 58 to 0 as soon as the motor started to crank. Basically, voltage at the FPSC would fall below 10.5 which we determined was necessary to power the FPSC. A relay fixed this problem and all was good with all the Aeromotive....the pump is loud, sounds like an ass ton of Africanized killer bees are in the back seat. (the back seat was not installed however.)

So heres the deal. Dyno runs went well. Pat G tuned it without the meth pump on and was conservative. We had major belt slip on the D1 at about 5300 rpm where the best run peaked at 690RWHP and 684RWTQ. This all happened at 5300 rpm then the curves went flat to 7000. I watched the boost gauge int he a pillar peak around 11-12 psi and fall flat at this point as the rpm climbed to 7000. You could smell the rubber belt burning.

I was pretty happy with 684RWTQ at 5300 and knew i could always upgrade to a 12 rib later. Oh BTW the MAP sensor is the stock 1 bar.

Pat G wanted to go for a final streetability drive with my driving.

First time i got on it, major TQ kicks in in 3rd....feather the throttle to get back in control then back on it to about 5000rpm. Then "reduced engine power" kills power and P0606 code is present. "PCM internal fault" is what this is. Pat has never seen this. He clears it and i try again...same result but at a little diff rpm. He clears it and again, same thing when getting on throttle.

Pat disables the code and we try again, but same result but no code is reported since he disable it.

We spent hours on this, he reset the entire pcm, reflashed the tune, i pulled PCM circuit breakes, we check grounds and the PCM harness at the connectors and all look good. Take it out again and same thing. it would "reduce engine power about 2 out of every 3 times when giving it gas.


Anyone out here seen this type of thing?

Plan is to bypass the Aeromotive speed contorller and run the pump full speed to see if its a contorller issue.

If that does not work, i want to get a new PCM and reload Pats tune and start with a fresh computer.

I think maybe my OE pcm just went tango uniform (tits up) when we deleted the OE fuel control computer when we went return style????

Lots of smart guys with lots of experience were consulted and all just scratched their heads and went "Hmmmmmm"
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:41 PM   #2
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You mentioned both of my ideas. Disable the pump controller and try a fresh PCM. The code "internal fault" has bad PCM all over it. But, once you're passing the 700rwhp mark you're kind of wondering past its capabilites and it might be time to look into a stand alone unit anyway.
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:41 PM   #3
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Are you running a stock throttlebody?
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:43 PM   #4
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Good luck finding a solution.

Welcome to the world of getting a blower belt to work. This is why I wish I went turbo. I just swapped belts again hoping to get one to work. I may have to swap crank pulleys again to get it to work.
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:49 PM   #5
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Are you running a stock throttlebody?
Yes, but the ported revexteme unit. That is one of the first things we swapped out. they had another LS3 unit on the shelf. Same result.

This same TB worked fine on my old motor at 715rwhp and 611 tQ.

Yes we are at a pretty hefty torque of 684 at only 5300rpm but Pat has seen much bigger power with the same TB and no issues.

It would have also kick out a different code. Pat has never seen the P0606. It basically tells me the computer/pcm has had enough and given up. I unplugged teh battery before leaving and SNL will look again next week
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:51 PM   #6
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ive seen this happen first hand two days ago on three different cars with nick williams 102, but those were with PD blowers.
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:53 PM   #7
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Good luck finding a solution.

Welcome to the world of getting a blower belt to work. This is why I wish I went turbo. I just swapped belts again hoping to get one to work. I may have to swap crank pulleys again to get it to work.
I hear ya Nick. thing is, the car was ridiculous as soon as i would even start to get in the gas. i would have to feather the pedal to keep it straight. Then as things were starting to go real nice, the car would surge forward and the reduced engine power would take over!

I will go 12 rib once we figure this out but see no reason to add any more torque to this thing. Its pretty stupid as it is at only 5300rpm
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Old 12-07-2012, 08:55 PM   #8
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ive seen this happen first hand two days ago on three different cars with nick williams 102, but those were with PD blowers.
Seen what, the p0606 code (PCM internal fault)?
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Old 12-07-2012, 09:04 PM   #9
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One other thing comes to mind. On thursday evening when first tryng to start teh car with the fuel system wired. I had a dead battery. We hooked up the big charger and tried again. This is when we first figured out that fuel pressure would drop from 58 to 0 at motor crank.

We were assuming weak battery since voltage at speed controller would drop from 12 to about 8.2, so speed controller not activating pump under motor start.

They cranked up the charge to the battery from the charger...it was a pretty big charger btw. Basically went to the engine start position and used that mode to charge the battery for a while.


Could this have spiked the PCM logic
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Old 12-07-2012, 09:37 PM   #10
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Is a direct drive available for you camaro guys? I know Dallas Performance makes a nice unit for the Vette's. Once you get the belt issues sorted out that thing will make some serious power to the point of maxing that blower out. What are you revving it to? I've heard nothing but bad things about Aeromotive lately and that is enough for me to go in another direction when I do my build.
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Old 12-07-2012, 10:50 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BullF-16 View Post
Alright. Need some brainstorming here. Spent the last 2 days with my car down at SNL Performance. The motor is in, the Aeromotive eliminator, billet controller, return style fuel system is in a wired correctly. (Aeromotive needs to get their shit together in this respect!!!) Pump runs at low voltage until 5000rpm then kicks into high gear thru the speed controller.

All this went fine. We did the initial drivability tune (Pat Guerra is the tuner) about the best there is...google him!!

This was done thurday PM. Friday morning we figured out that a relay was required for the 16 gauge power wire to the FPSC. Without the relay the pump would fire up at key on, but the rail pressure would drop from 58 to 0 as soon as the motor started to crank. Basically, voltage at the FPSC would fall below 10.5 which we determined was necessary to power the FPSC. A relay fixed this problem and all was good with all the Aeromotive....the pump is loud, sounds like an ass ton of Africanized killer bees are in the back seat. (the back seat was not installed however.)

So heres the deal. Dyno runs went well. Pat G tuned it without the meth pump on and was conservative. We had major belt slip on the D1 at about 5300 rpm where the best run peaked at 690RWHP and 684RWTQ. This all happened at 5300 rpm then the curves went flat to 7000. I watched the boost gauge int he a pillar peak around 11-12 psi and fall flat at this point as the rpm climbed to 7000. You could smell the rubber belt burning.

I was pretty happy with 684RWTQ at 5300 and knew i could always upgrade to a 12 rib later. Oh BTW the MAP sensor is the stock 1 bar.

Pat G wanted to go for a final streetability drive with my driving.

First time i got on it, major TQ kicks in in 3rd....feather the throttle to get back in control then back on it to about 5000rpm. Then "reduced engine power" kills power and P0606 code is present. "PCM internal fault" is what this is. Pat has never seen this. He clears it and i try again...same result but at a little diff rpm. He clears it and again, same thing when getting on throttle.

Pat disables the code and we try again, but same result but no code is reported since he disable it.

We spent hours on this, he reset the entire pcm, reflashed the tune, i pulled PCM circuit breakes, we check grounds and the PCM harness at the connectors and all look good. Take it out again and same thing. it would "reduce engine power about 2 out of every 3 times when giving it gas.


Anyone out here seen this type of thing?

Plan is to bypass the Aeromotive speed contorller and run the pump full speed to see if its a contorller issue.

If that does not work, i want to get a new PCM and reload Pats tune and start with a fresh computer.

I think maybe my OE pcm just went tango uniform (tits up) when we deleted the OE fuel control computer when we went return style????

Lots of smart guys with lots of experience were consulted and all just scratched their heads and went "Hmmmmmm"
Jim,

We had a similar problem with our shop car after installing our new motor.
It kept going into limp mode and throwing that code any time you would start it and try to give it any gas.
Turned out it was a wire that had come loose at the PCM plug. Cant remember if the wire was just pulled out or it was cut but after we fixed it, everything was fine.
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Old 12-08-2012, 01:04 AM   #12
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Jim,

I didnt follow all of it and I'm trying to remember all the details from my Aeromotive install...

Here was part of the situation...

Key on, pump would run up to fuel pressure, 58-60 psi... Turn the key to start and the fuel pressure would drop off to zero...

This was a case of when the key was in the start position, the (hope this is correct) BCM was blocking power to the pump along with most other electrical components and so the pump wasn't running... Hence, fuel pressure drop off and not enough to start the car...it's redirecting power to the starter...

The fix was to roll the key to the start position and immediately let off... It'll still run the starter for a few seconds, and the power is allowed back to the pump so it maintains pressure and the car would start... Contrary to old rules, these car will continue to crank for, if I remember correctly, as much as five seconds after releasing the key if you just bump it to start and let off to the run position...

I never had a problem starting it after that...

As for the other issues...

I never threw any codes, but occasionally when going from cruise to WOT, I would get a fuel pressure spike and the car would surge and buck really hard.... We never figured that one out as the Aeromotive crapped itself prior to us diagnosing it....

We pulled the junk pump and the billet FPSC out and put the Lingenfelter dual pumps back in the bucket, built a surge tank and installed an external Weldon fuel pump... No issues at all since... Aeromotive couldn't understand why I didn't want their pump in my car anymore... Must have been something about it only lasting seven hours total...

The dual pumps feed the surge tank running wide open with no back pressure all the time, and the Weldon pulls from the surge tank... 2.5 gallon, and feeds the rails via a fuel pressure regulator....

Oh, we had the Aeromotive set up on a hob switch... At one lb of boost it went from low to high speed mode...

I'll check with Corey, but there was something about bypassing the PCM and then having the trick it into thinking the factory fuel pump was there so the car would run right.

Again, I don't remember all of the details, but I'll see what I can find out...
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:07 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Detoxx03 View Post
Is a direct drive available for you camaro guys? I know Dallas Performance makes a nice unit for the Vette's. Once you get the belt issues sorted out that thing will make some serious power to the point of maxing that blower out. What are you revving it to? I've heard nothing but bad things about Aeromotive lately and that is enough for me to go in another direction when I do my build.
Camaros already use a "direct drive" for all their blower kits. Only vettes use the same belt. Procharger, Vortech, ECS, etc all run off their own blower belt.

Stock TB is fine, stock ECU is fine (assuming it isn't broken). 1000-1100rwhp is done all the time with them. I think you are on the correct path.

What area of Texas are you in?
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Old 12-08-2012, 11:33 AM   #14
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Jim,

I didnt follow all of it and I'm trying to remember all the details from my Aeromotive install...

Here was part of the situation...

Key on, pump would run up to fuel pressure, 58-60 psi... Turn the key to start and the fuel pressure would drop off to zero...

This was a case of when the key was in the start position, the (hope this is correct) BCM was blocking power to the pump along with most other electrical components and so the pump wasn't running... Hence, fuel pressure drop off and not enough to start the car...it's redirecting power to the starter...

The fix was to roll the key to the start position and immediately let off... It'll still run the starter for a few seconds, and the power is allowed back to the pump so it maintains pressure and the car would start... Contrary to old rules, these car will continue to crank for, if I remember correctly, as much as five seconds after releasing the key if you just bump it to start and let off to the run position...

I never had a problem starting it after that...

As for the other issues...

I never threw any codes, but occasionally when going from cruise to WOT, I would get a fuel pressure spike and the car would surge and buck really hard.... We never figured that one out as the Aeromotive crapped itself prior to us diagnosing it....

We pulled the junk pump and the billet FPSC out and put the Lingenfelter dual pumps back in the bucket, built a surge tank and installed an external Weldon fuel pump... No issues at all since... Aeromotive couldn't understand why I didn't want their pump in my car anymore... Must have been something about it only lasting seven hours total...

The dual pumps feed the surge tank running wide open with no back pressure all the time, and the Weldon pulls from the surge tank... 2.5 gallon, and feeds the rails via a fuel pressure regulator....

Oh, we had the Aeromotive set up on a hob switch... At one lb of boost it went from low to high speed mode...

I'll check with Corey, but there was something about bypassing the PCM and then having the trick it into thinking the factory fuel pump was there so the car would run right.

Again, I don't remember all of the details, but I'll see what I can find out...
Robert, for the starting issue, we had the identical thing. turn key to power on pump, fuel pressure was 58. Go to crank car and it would drop to zero. Our solution was to wire in a relay to the red 16 gauge power wire to the controller and that fixed it.

It was perfect on the numerous dyno runs, just major belt slip at 53-5500rpm.

ON the final street tune the PCM started acting up and giving us the PCM internal fault code with reduced power.

We are gonna bypass the aeromotive controller and dyno it and see it it kicks out the code there then take it out on the street. It it doesnt kick out the P0606 code then we isolated that the aeromotive controller is the issue and conflicting with the pcm.

It that does not solve it and we still get the pcm fault i am leaning to changing out the pcm. One last thing i want to do is unplug the connectors to the PCM and check all the wiring there.
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Old 12-08-2012, 11:37 AM   #15
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Jim,

We had a similar problem with our shop car after installing our new motor.
It kept going into limp mode and throwing that code any time you would start it and try to give it any gas.
Turned out it was a wire that had come loose at the PCM plug. Cant remember if the wire was just pulled out or it was cut but after we fixed it, everything was fine.
Thanks Chris, what led you to check the connectors? Did some diagnostic tool tell you it was a wiring fault. The motor was lifted from top and the new one dropped in from the top. I wasnt there for this but do know the wiring harness would have to be manipulated to get it out of the way. How the hell do you find a single broken wire?
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Old 12-08-2012, 11:41 AM   #16
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Thanks Chris, what led you to check the connectors? Did some diagnostic tool tell you it was a wiring fault. The motor was lifted from top and the new one dropped in from the top. I wasnt there for this but do know the wiring harness would have to be manipulated to get it out of the way. How the hell do you find a single broken wire?
We looked at a bunch of stuff before finding it.
We narrowed out everything but a few things with a wire problem being one of them.
We started the car and let it idle and then started moving wire bundles and connectors around until we found it. When we found it the code popped up and it went into limp mode.
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Old 12-08-2012, 11:49 AM   #17
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For the record, eliminating the stock FSCM isn't going to cause any of these issues. You do need to make sure you unplug that FSCM if you have turned it off in the tune though.

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Old 12-08-2012, 11:55 AM   #18
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For the record, eliminating the stock FSCM isn't going to cause any of these issues. You do need to make sure you unplug that FSCM if you have turned it off in the tune though.

Andy
We completely removed it with the LPE dual pump setup i had a year ago. With the aeromotive there is no longer any sort of FSCM. just the fuel controller that controls the pump speed and the boost referenced regulator.

Oh, BTW, if the aeromotive FPSC is the issue here i will be calling you up for your dual 400LPH setup.
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Old 12-08-2012, 01:32 PM   #19
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We completely removed it with the LPE dual pump setup i had a year ago. With the aeromotive there is no longer any sort of FSCM. just the fuel controller that controls the pump speed and the boost referenced regulator.

Oh, BTW, if the aeromotive FPSC is the issue here i will be calling you up for your dual 400LPH setup.
I'll put your name on one ;-)

Andy
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Old 12-08-2012, 02:23 PM   #20
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I'll put your name on one ;-)

Andy
This Pump of yours is setup to run return style...right. And retains the OEM secondary transfer module and level sender. I will have to find an OEM fuel hat as i do not have one now. Or is you dual pump assembly setup in the oem hat as is?
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Old 12-08-2012, 02:59 PM   #21
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This Pump of yours is setup to run return style...right. And retains the OEM secondary transfer module and level sender. I will have to find an OEM fuel hat as i do not have one now. Or is you dual pump assembly setup in the oem hat as is?
Bull,
I am running the Squash system return style in my car. Works like a charm! Andy has a machined "top" (for lack of a better term) that goes on a modified factory fuel bucket. He modifies the stock bucket to accept it and the dual pumps. It uses the factory level sender and the factory transfer module as well.
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Old 12-08-2012, 03:17 PM   #22
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Yup - you can swap the bucket over yourself, all you need is a side cutters, a box cutter/exacto knife, and about 5 minutes. Or I have a bunch of cores on hand and can put it together if you don't have your original one to use.

Andy
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Old 12-08-2012, 04:04 PM   #23
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Yup - you can swap the bucket over yourself, all you need is a side cutters, a box cutter/exacto knife, and about 5 minutes. Or I have a bunch of cores on hand and can put it together if you don't have your original one to use.

Andy
Well, the new PCM is ordered. In the mean time SNL will check the wiring closely as well as the speed controller on the aeromotive setup. They are going to bypass the speed controller and run the pump at full speed. If the problem goes away with the PCM and codes then great it was the aeromotive speed controller causing the issue. I will call aeromotive and work with them.

If its not the issue we will plug in the new PCM, load a base tune and Pat G left me an EFI Live Auto cal with the final tune. SNL will load that into the new PCM and test drive. If no P0606 codes and the car doesn't go into reduced power mode, then problem solved! If we still get codes then what the hell to do next?

If I order the Squash setup i will need the original cores as i scrapped mine a year ago when we added the LPE dual pump kit
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Old 12-08-2012, 06:00 PM   #24
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Well, the new PCM is ordered. In the mean time SNL will check the wiring closely as well as the speed controller on the aeromotive setup. They are going to bypass the speed controller and run the pump at full speed. If the problem goes away with the PCM and codes then great it was the aeromotive speed controller causing the issue. I will call aeromotive and work with them.

If its not the issue we will plug in the new PCM, load a base tune and Pat G left me an EFI Live Auto cal with the final tune. SNL will load that into the new PCM and test drive. If no P0606 codes and the car doesn't go into reduced power mode, then problem solved! If we still get codes then what the hell to do next?

If I order the Squash setup i will need the original cores as i scrapped mine a year ago when we added the LPE dual pump kit
I'm glad to see you got the stomach for it and secondly good people around you to support your project. Many shops just want a quick buck and walk away as soon as the going gets tough. Good luck and at the end, you'll appreciate your build even more.
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Old 12-08-2012, 06:43 PM   #25
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I'm glad to see you got the stomach for it and secondly good people around you to support your project. Many shops just want a quick buck and walk away as soon as the going gets tough. Good luck and at the end, you'll appreciate your build even more.
Outstanding post Z-Rocks!!! SNL Performance has been my goto shop. They are also the Monster Clutch company. Steve the owner is a professional. Dustin, the lead tech and the Man, has done most of the work. His attention to detail is amazing. I like this shop because i am always welcome to go back and turn wrenches/get in their way.

Pat Guerra, who drove up from Houston/Victoria is my tuner. He spent 4 hrs on Thurs on the driveability tune and 9 hrs on Friday with the dyno tune and did not want to give up on the damn PCM codes P0606 on the street tune. Nor did SNL want to stop. I am the one that said "enough is enough"

I have found on more than one occasion that when confronted with a problem sometimes its better to walk away and give it a break. Pat G left me with a EFILive auto Cal with his dyno tune on it. So if swapping out a new PCM fixes the problem we can just load his tune. Now i can also data log with it and have Pat send me tunes via email.

Bottom line, if this crap was easy, every one would be driving 1000hp cars on the street. \\

SNL Performance and Pat Guerra have been fantastic!!!!! These guys will figure it out.

I am doing my part here on Camaro5.com......thanks for the help guys/gals (though i have not heard from Darth Emma for a while!
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