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Old 01-01-2013, 12:28 PM   #188
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I don't think that anyone has an issue with your opinion that you prefer drag racing to road racing, or that you would rather have the GT500 over the ZL1.

I want is a matter of opinion, when you start to say that one thing is a better bang for your buck then another it is safer to have a qualifier. Such as the GT500 is the better bang for your buck car because its faster at the drag strip. That is an opinion, when you state that the GT500 is the better bang for your buck car because it is so much faster at the drag strip it comes off as a matter of fact. When in reality there are plenty of people who disagrees with you, also because these two cars excel at different things its possible that the GT500 is the better bang for your buck car then the ZL1 for you but the other way for other people.

You also throw it out there that suddenly people have become track fans because it is is what ZL1 and 1LE is really good at. I can give a counter argument that people are increasingly enjoying road racing and that those who like drag racing may even be down. This would also have the desired result of turning drag strip people into road racing people. You also have to understand that the gen 4 Camaro's while not the worst handling cars in the world this isn't something that it excelled at. Its like a kid who gets a new toy and starts to play with it, they find out that this toy can also do X, Y, and Z and now have more interest in it because of it.

With that said, my uncle loved drag racing and when he was younger had a 1969 SS 396 Camaro which ran a best time of 12.10 at the drag strip. He passed this love for drag racing on to his son, I have had no interest at all in drag racing. If you think I need historical context for why I like Camaro's then look at the old Z28 Camaro's and their performance in Trans Am racing something with lots of turns.

As far as others "jumping" onto the road racing band wagon that you have insinuated I can not speak for others. though is it possible that those people talk drag racing in drag racing threads and road racing in road racing threads and that they actually liked both all along?.
I never said the 500 was a better bang for your buck I just said the camaro at 60k isn't
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:31 PM   #189
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I was simply expressing my opinion I thought this was anerica
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Old 01-01-2013, 12:33 PM   #190
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I gotta give credit to the ZL1. Making an over 4000 pound car do what its dong takes alot. Will the ZL1 out handle the GT500?? I say yes, that it depends on the track and driver. The ZL1 will be more easy to drive but I dont think its going to kill a GT500 on every track or even beat the GT500 on every track. Throw more laps in there and I bet the ZL1 will heat soak MUCH faster than the GT500. But I still give the edge to the ZL1 on road courses.

Now the 1LE and Boss. Thats a whole different story. The 1LE beat the Boss time on a dry track on a different day with no traffic compared to the Boss's time on a damp track with traffic. Just sayn.......Also im not biased. I could care less if its a Ford Dodge or Chevy......Ive had all and alot of each!!!!
Here's another comparison.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/_mob...-camaro-ss-1le
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Old 01-01-2013, 02:08 PM   #191
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It is not hard to comprehend why 1/4 times and straight line performance matter so much to people. 99% of drivers and even enthusiasts will do most of their racing in a straight line whether it be legally at a track or from stop light to stop light.
It is hard on the car, but nowhere near as hard as running hard laps around a track. Not to mention most people do not have the skill to get a car around a track quickly. 1/4 racing is significantly easier.
I am a huge enthusiast myself and my personal cars have only ever seen the drag strip, more times than I can count. I'd love to go to a nice course but my Camaro is my daily and running a daily hard around a track just isn't a good idea. When I can eventually afford a home and a second car then I'll give it a go, for now its high speed go karts.
Additionally 1/4 times are widely recognized and easily understood. There are countless tracks out there and they are all so different. Someone on the other side of the country will likely not have any idea what a good time is at your local course. They would however understand 1/4 times.

So hopefully now you realize how important 1/4 times are and why people care.

For those who responded to me, the above shows why the 500 is a great performer. Most people care about 1/4 times and it just plain trashes the ZL1 and pretty much every other car out there for the money. The ZL1 obviously handles better but most people are never going to a course track.

Just think if the cars were opposite and the ZL1 put up the 500 times while the 500 was a bit quicker around a track? I guarantee I'd see people saying, "Who cares that your car is faster around some random track, you'll still enjoy my tail lights when I see you out." Just saying...

The 500 being the better performance car for the cash doesn't take away from the ZL1 also being a great performer for the cash. I'd still get the ZL1 over it anyway because it is the better daily.

/rant /imdone
That's where I disagree, for the money the GT500 is not the better performer/buy. It is substantially slower around a road course, not as comfortable for DD, less sophisticated technology, and still cost $5k more. Put that $5k into the ZL1 (will get you over 100rwhp with proper cooling) now we have two cars with same $$ in them, the GT500 has no chance. The ZL1 is better in many areas and the better all around performer for the $$. The GT500 only does one thing better, the 1/4, and that at a $5k surplus to the ZL1 price. Takes $20k to make a nova run low 11's, does that make it a better performance car for the $$??

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Hmm, think you're not understanding my point...its easy to make a car go fast in a straight line, just takes some money.
Making it endure Nurburgring at 7.40 takes skill and engineering...and lots of it. The fact the GT500 can barely beat a $37k car with 200 less horsepower speaks volumes. There are about a million mods you can do to a LS3 to make a Camaro do the 1/4 faster then a GT500...

As far as egotistical people who are busy living life "a quarter mile at a time"...just don't have time for those kind of people...
I don't race on public roads and anytime anybody wants to challenge me, I say "sure, lets go to the track"...they usually decline...they usually lack the skill and are worried about their "superior" cars breaking...

Guess you can look at it another way...Cars can accelerate, decelerate, turn left, turn right and endure....seems kind of ridiculous to declare your car superior against a car that can do ALL of those well, because you can do a quarter mile .3 of a second faster, yet suck at everything else
Exactly, ALL high end performance cars are benchmarked to their track capabilities and ring times due to the level of engineering and performance capabilities of the car. We are in a new era, the reason the old American muscle cars only cared about 1/4 was because old American cars were not capable of producing a car that could handle worth a damn. Now tech has been introduced and things are changing.
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Old 01-01-2013, 02:18 PM   #192
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The GT500 is a U.S. Heavyweight Champion boxer, and the ZL1 is a International Heavyweight MMA rookie.

The Boxer is the undisputed "king of the hill" of an antiquated breed; The stand up and duke it out, blow for blow brute, who either excels at pummeling opponents in legitimate sanctioned matches or illegally busting noses and jaws on the street.

The MMA fighter is the shockingly effective rookie who has surprised everyone by either upsetting the reigning champions or at least eliminating any measurable dominance they may have had in multiple disciplines.

The GT500 is the undisputed king of the dragstrip for a factory car under $65,000 and has been so for many years. It is also respectfully competitive on a road course. As a grand tourer it is rationalized as an acceptable option even though it is still measurably inferior to other competitors in that regard. But don't tell it that cause it will eagerly try to prove that every road is a dragstrip.

The ZL1 available in fully competitive form for under $60,000, is the multi-disciplined young international rookie of the year. In its first year it has either upset the champions or virtually eliminated their measurable dominance in whatever contest it has entered. It's been compared to and even out raced Audi's RSs, BMW's Ms, Mercedes' AMGs and Porsche's 911s. It has even called into question the dominance of Ferraris, Jaguars, Nissan's GTR and the rediculously over valued Lexus LFA. Both Ferrari and Audi are paying undoubtedly huge somes of money to borrow its technology (MRC). All the while, being a very respectable grand tourer and daily driver with room for 4 and some cargo.

Oh and on a dark and lonely street, it doesn't care about of a few tenth's or a few pounds disadvantage to the old local brute who feels the need to prove something to itself that it can't seem to prove anywhere else but on a lonely street or a dragstrip. That it's still the king...of an antiquated breed.
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Old 01-01-2013, 02:26 PM   #193
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That's where I disagree, for the money the GT500 is not the better performer/buy. It is substantially slower around a road course, not as comfortable for DD, less sophisticated technology, and still cost $5k more. Put that $5k into the ZL1 (will get you over 100rwhp with proper cooling) now we have two cars with same $$ in them, the GT500 has no chance. The ZL1 is better in many areas and the better all around performer for the $$. The GT500 only does one thing better, the 1/4, and that at a $5k surplus to the ZL1 price. Takes $20k to make a nova run low 11's, does that make it a better performance car for the $$??
2 seconds may be slower but calling that substantial is a bit of a stretch imo. Especially considering at 3:00.6 it still beat out most of the other exotics on the list. You have to acknowledge that 3:00 is still very fast. All I'm saying is you get a 1/4 monster AND a car that gets around the track FAST.
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Old 01-01-2013, 02:43 PM   #194
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Didnt the GT500 beat the ZL1 around a road course a few months ago??? I gotta go find that pic......
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Old 01-01-2013, 02:44 PM   #195
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Where in the hell did you come from with that comment? Did I infer anything of the like? I simply made a VALUE (performance for the buck) statement and reference the article mentioned the performance of the ZL1 could have even been better. Happy New Year and read the entire thread (just a few post early we were discussing the best performance value) before making a comment that has no fundamental basis.
And regarding his comment of the 99% of LFA owners...you can bet anyone with that kinda cash has an ego to go with it.
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Old 01-01-2013, 02:54 PM   #196
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Didnt the GT500 beat the ZL1 around a road course a few months ago??? I gotta go find that pic......

I don't trust magazines as the final word. Their business is to sell magazines first I ask with hardcopy publications is do both manufacturers pay for advertisement in those magazines? As far as the numbers, the Mustang will of course win a drag race. I don't drag race, low ET low IQ as they say. I bet you a paycheck that the road race track times are driver related. I still like the Mustangs and I owned one but they still drive terribly in the rain because of that damn live axle from the sixties.
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Old 01-01-2013, 02:55 PM   #197
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Really? why not list those out for me and we'll review

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Oh please name half the tracks the 500 beat the Z on ...
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It is substantially slower around a road course, not as comfortable for DD, less sophisticated technology, and still cost $5k more.
Laguna Seca and Streets of Willow the GT500 was faster. Tied on Grattan Raceway. ZL1 faster on Gingerman and VIR. I don't know how anyone can call the ZL1 substantially faster in anything...And less sophisticated technology? Suspension or engine? Because last time I checked a pushrod V8 is not the most advanced technology in the world...at least not compared to a DOHC 32V design...that has less displacement and puts out almost 100hp more...just saying...

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As far as the numbers, the Mustang will of course win a drag race. I don't drag race, low ET low IQ as the road racers say. I bet you a paycheck that the road race track times are driver related. I still like the Mustangs and I owned one but they still drive terribly in the rain because of that damn live axle from the sixties.

Yeah, Randy Pobst certainly doesn't know what he's doing. Maybe you can give him some pointers. Isn't the ZL1 supposed to be the more driver friendly car anyways for the average driver? Or are we throwing that out the window when a GT500 gets a win around a road course?
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Old 01-01-2013, 02:56 PM   #198
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2 seconds may be slower but calling that substantial is a bit of a stretch imo. Especially considering at 3:00.6 it still beat out most of the other exotics on the list. You have to acknowledge that 3:00 is still very fast. All I'm saying is you get a 1/4 monster AND a car that gets around the track FAST.
Actually it was 3 seconds, yes that is substantial. 3 laps almost 10 seconds faster, but details. Absolutely, I give the Gt500 a ton of credit. That motor is insane, but given the cost of the car, I do not see how it is a better buy for the $$. Yes it is fast around the course, just as the ZL1 is fast on the strip with several high 11's in stock form.
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Old 01-01-2013, 03:02 PM   #199
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Laguna Seca and Streets of Willow the GT500 was faster. Tied on Grattan Raceway. ZL1 faster on Gingerman and VIR.

Bingo and why I posted this pic just a little while ago..........
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Old 01-01-2013, 03:03 PM   #200
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2 seconds may be slower but calling that substantial is a bit of a stretch imo. Especially considering at 3:00.6 it still beat out most of the other exotics on the list. You have to acknowledge that 3:00 is still very fast. All I'm saying is you get a 1/4 monster AND a car that gets around the track FAST.
I think one of the points you have been missing is, the 500 had to be optioned out in order to performed as good as it did. The Z on the other hand, did much better with standard equipment at close to $10k less. Also you need to remember the Z beat out all cars in it's class, the class above it and the Jag in the class above that only leaving two cars that ran better.
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Old 01-01-2013, 03:08 PM   #201
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Laguna Seca and Streets of Willow the GT500 was faster. Tied on Grattan Raceway. ZL1 faster on Gingerman and VIR. I don't know how anyone can call the ZL1 substantially faster in anything...And less sophisticated technology? Suspension or engine? Because last time I checked a pushrod V8 is not the most advanced technology in the world...at least not compared to a DOHC 32V design...that has less displacement and puts out almost 100hp more...just saying
I wouldn't call it less sophisticated. Both have their ins and outs. OHC design doesn't automaticaly make it more advanced. Its not like several feet of chains and more valves are some high tech wizardry. Theyv been in use for 100 years, adding some dual vvt helps though.
I'm not hating on the gt500 at all, both impressive cars with similar performance.
However, by many counts, you would expect the mustang to be way faster than the zl1 on a road course, given the power and weight advantage. But, they come out very close.
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Old 01-01-2013, 03:13 PM   #202
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I wouldn't call it less sophisticated. Both have their ins and outs. OHC design doesn't automaticaly make it more advanced. Its not like several feet of chains and more valves are some high tech wizardry. Theyv been in use for 100 years, adding some dual vvt helps though.
I'm not hating on the gt500 at all, both impressive cars with similar performance.
However, by many counts, you would expect the mustang to be way faster than the zl1 on a road course, given the power and weight advantage. But, they come out very close.
I think the fact that cheap ass Ford stuck 662hp in a chassis they designed for 300hp back in 05 speaks a lot as to why a car with 80hp more, and 300lbs less weight, only wins on half the road courses. I'm glad the VIR results are what they are and I'm glad Chevy made both the ZL1 and the 1LE, and I hope they make a Camaro with the LS7 as well. Ford has been upping their prices while not doing enough to justify the cost increases. I can only imagine what a 1LE will do on a track with an additional 70hp of an LS7, especially if it undercut the Boss 302LS price and came in at around 45k. Both of these car companies tend to feed off each other, but I think Ford has gotten too comfortable knowing that some people will buy a Mustang just because of the name. If they don't do anything drastically different to make their cars better on the next redesign, you can bet your ass I'll be shopping elsewhere. I fell in love with the 2011 GT that I have, and I will probably keep it forever, but Ford really needs to ditch the S197 platform if they are going to be going over the 450hp mark in it.
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Old 01-01-2013, 03:15 PM   #203
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However, by many counts, you would expect the mustang to be way faster than the zl1 on a road course, given the power and weight advantage. But, they come out very close.

Actually thats pretty damn accurate and what I have been trying to get at. The ZL1 and GT500 are damn close on a road course. The GT500 has won some and the ZL1 has won some on road courses. Its not an all out killing of the GT500 on a road course like this thread makes it out to be.
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Old 01-01-2013, 03:16 PM   #204
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I gotta give credit to the ZL1. Making an over 4000 pound car do what its dong takes alot. Will the ZL1 out handle the GT500?? I say yes, that it depends on the track and driver. The ZL1 will be more easy to drive but I dont think its going to kill a GT500 on every track or even beat the GT500 on every track. Throw more laps in there and I bet the ZL1 will heat soak MUCH faster than the GT500. But I still give the edge to the ZL1 on road courses.

Now the 1LE and Boss. Thats a whole different story. The 1LE beat the Boss time on a dry track on a different day with no traffic compared to the Boss's time on a damp track with traffic. Just sayn.......Also im not biased. I could care less if its a Ford Dodge or Chevy......Ive had all and alot of each!!!!
All I can say is, WOW!
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