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Old 01-02-2013, 10:40 PM   #326
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I agree, with what Ford had to work with they did wonders. But you can only go so far...yet BIG HP does cover a multitude.
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Old 01-02-2013, 10:52 PM   #327
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I agree, with what Ford had to work with they did wonders. But you can only go so far...yet BIG HP does cover a multitude.
Yeah you can only go SO FAR and Ford has done things with a SRA that are remarkable but it's an obvious handicap to the Mustang if it wants to continue to be relevant. I'm excited to see the next gen cars, Camaro and Mustang not so much Dodge. They should have been left to rot ...
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:01 PM   #328
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Yeah you can only go SO FAR and Ford has done things with a SRA that are remarkable but it's an obvious handicap to the Mustang if it wants to continue to be relevant. I'm excited to see the next gen cars, Camaro and Mustang not so much Dodge. They should have been left to rot ...
I've heard rumors that dodge is working on a challenger that should be similar in weight and performance as to what the next gen camaro and mustangs will be. And in all honesty I'm looking forward to it more than the mustangs. Those hemi engines are nice.
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:02 PM   #329
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People do and always will buy the car that they feel suits their needs the best. I bought the car I wanted because it was the car "I" Wanted. I knew I'm not taking it to a road course and it won't go to a drag strip. Not everyone buys the car they do because they have something to prove. I don't care if the ZL1 can pull .2+ G's more than the GT500 at the limit, I don't care if I paid more for my GT500 than the guy with a ZL1 did. My GT500 is everything I wanted in a car and that's why I bought it. I wanted a car that can scare the hell outta. Not everybody buys because the car is .6 seconds faster in the 1/4 mile or 6 seconds faster on a road course.
Lol, its funny you mention that, I've driven many cars before that made me fear for my life. But not for the same reasons your describing, hehe.
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:17 PM   #330
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People do and always will buy the car that they feel suits their needs the best. I bought the car I wanted because it was the car "I" Wanted. I knew I'm not taking it to a road course and it won't go to a drag strip. Not everyone buys the car they do because they have something to prove. I don't care if the ZL1 can pull .2+ G's more than the GT500 at the limit, I don't care if I paid more for my GT500 than the guy with a ZL1 did. My GT500 is everything I wanted in a car and that's why I bought it. I wanted a car that can scare the hell outta. Not everybody buys because the car is .6 seconds faster in the 1/4 mile or 6 seconds faster on a road course.
I can definetly that. I love the new GT500 and would probably have one if the ZL1 was never born. Post some pics of ur beast
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:24 PM   #331
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I seriously can't be the only person who gets this...
Nobody tunes a car at Nurburgring to compete with a Ford....not once, not ever... You think BMW is over there thinking, "Hmmm, the GT500 looks hard to beat..."

Here you have a ZL1 which beat every BMW and Audi at Nurburgring and you Ford fanbois think its all about you...how sad...

I don't think there is a person with a lick of common sense that thinks the GT500 is as track capable as the ZL1 or even BMW or Audi...power may get you through one lap, maybe two, but the car just can't endure.

See, when you go really fast in a front heavy car and have to stop real hard to take a corner at the same speed as a Chevy Aveo, your brakes heat up and start to fade...its physics... and it makes for a real poor track car.

Anyways, the svtperformance guys have 248 pages of GT500 vs ZL1...can we just be cooler then them and talk about some actual ZL1 and 1LE competition...

I know the GT500 guys wish they were a threat, and if I ever need a car that is only capable of doing a really short distance mediocrely fast, I'll think about it...

(...BTW, even the BMW fanbois, which are arguably some of the interwebz more obnoxious, would have given in by now...)
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:48 PM   #332
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I seriously can't be the only person who gets this...
Nobody tunes a car at Nurburgring to compete with a Ford....not once, not ever... You think BMW is over there thinking, "Hmmm, the GT500 looks hard to beat..."

Here you have a ZL1 which beat every BMW and Audi at Nurburgring and you Ford fanbois think its all about you...how sad...

I don't think there is a person with a lick of common sense that thinks the GT500 is as track capable as the ZL1 or even BMW or Audi...power may get you through one lap, maybe two, but the car just can't endure.

See, when you go really fast in a front heavy car and have to stop real hard to take a corner at the same speed as a Chevy Aveo, your brakes heat up and start to fade...its physics... and it makes for a real poor track car.

Anyways, the svtperformance guys have 248 pages of GT500 vs ZL1...can we just be cooler then them and talk about some actual ZL1 and 1LE competition...

I know the GT500 guys wish they were a threat, and if I ever need a car that is only capable of doing a really short distance mediocrely fast, I'll think about it...

(...BTW, even the BMW fanbois, which are arguably some of the interwebz more obnoxious, would have given in by now...)
Well Ford did basically Butt F*** the M3 with the Mustang Boss 302 and the GT isn't that far behind the M3, so…

I don't think anyone is dumb enough to believe a supercharged car is the smartest choice for a track car.
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:51 PM   #333
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Cool

"Nobody tunes a car at Nurburgring to compete with a Ford....not once, not ever... You think BMW is over there thinking, "Hmmm, the GT500 looks hard to beat..."

Here you have a ZL1 which beat every BMW and Audi at Nurburgring and you Ford fanbois think its all about you...how sad..."


This.

Audi and BMW could care less about how fast a Ford is, any Ford. It's a whole different market.

That's why, as a soon to be former BMW driver, I was willing to try a ZL1. At least there seem to be some in America that are trying to bring a level of sophistication to the automotive world.
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:29 AM   #334
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Leonardo Da Vinci said "simplicity is the ultimate sophistication." This being the case, which is the more "sophisticated" car, a BMW, an Audi, a ZL1 or a GT500?


Truth be told, what people are really buying is a good experience. Sometimes simple is good, and sometimes complex is good, depending on what a good experience is in a given context.

As an avid Leonardo Da Vinci fan, I can confidently say he would also agree that the GT500 isn't a track car.

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Originally Posted by The IOM Ninja
Well Ford did basically Butt F*** the M3 with the Mustang Boss 302 and the GT isn't that far behind the M3, so…

I don't think anyone is dumb enough to believe a supercharged car is the smartest choice for a track car.
Yeah...the Boss was only a couple seconds behind the GT500 too...and it has 200 more horsepower aswell...Yay for Boss? or Boooo for GT500? hmmm...looks like the GT500 could be competition for the 1LE and Boss...
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:35 AM   #335
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As an avid Leonardo Da Vinci fan, I can confidently say he would also agree that the GT500 isn't a track car.



Yeah...the Boss was only a couple seconds behind the GT500 too...and it has 200 more horsepower aswell...Yay for Boss? or Boooo for GT500? hmmm...looks like the GT500 could be competition for the 1LE and Boss...
I think it's pretty much common sense that the GT500 isn't a track car, I'm not debating that it is If I was going to buy a track car (out of the Camaro or Mustang) I would be buying a naturally aspirated Ford Boss 302 or 1LE SS.
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:46 AM   #336
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I think it's pretty much common sense that the GT500 isn't a track car, I'm not debating that it is If I was going to buy a track car (out of the Camaro or Mustang) I would be buying a naturally aspirated Ford Boss 302 or 1LE SS.
Didn't say you were debating it My track comment was in response to NVmyZL1.
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Old 01-03-2013, 08:38 AM   #337
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If you really want to know the truth.....Niether the ZL1 or GT500 would be a good track car. The Boss 302 or 1LE would be better.

The ZL1 will heat soak much faster than the GT500 but in the end both will heat soak eventually depending on the track. It will take a while before the GT500 will heat soak though. The HE system on that thing is just unreal......

A "Z28" with the LS7, less weight and mag ride like the ZL1 would be nice for the road course guys.
We will see what happens with the next gen Camaro and Mustang. Also we will see what Dodge has got up its sleeve with the new 6.2L SC engine its coming out with for the 2014 model Challenger. 2015 will be the change for the Challenger too.
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Old 01-03-2013, 09:10 AM   #338
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If you really want to know the truth.....Niether the ZL1 or GT500 would be a good track car. The Boss 302 or 1LE would be better.

The ZL1 will heat soak much faster than the GT500 but in the end both will heat soak eventually depending on the track. It will take a while before the GT500 will heat soak though. The HE system on that thing is just unreal......

A "Z28" with the LS7, less weight and mag ride like the ZL1 would be nice for the road course guys.
We will see what happens with the next gen Camaro and Mustang. Also we will see what Dodge has got up its sleeve with the new 6.2L SC engine its coming out with for the 2014 model Challenger. 2015 will be the change for the Challenger too.
Oh yeah, I'm looking forward to those supercharged hemis.
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Old 01-03-2013, 09:13 AM   #339
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Oh yeah, I'm looking forward to those supercharged hemis.
Hopefully they will put out some decent numbers. When it comes to Dodge, you wont know until its on the showroom floor. LOL
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Old 01-03-2013, 11:30 AM   #340
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If you really want to know the truth.....Niether the ZL1 or GT500 would be a good track car. The Boss 302 or 1LE would be better.

The ZL1 will heat soak much faster than the GT500 but in the end both will heat soak eventually depending on the track. It will take a while before the GT500 will heat soak though. The HE system on that thing is just unreal......

I know you have mentioned "heat soak" several times regarding the supercharged cars both the Mustang GT500 and the Camaro ZL1. I'm trying to ascertain when you drove both of them on the track in hot weather and how did it feel once they were "heat soaked"? On which particular road courses did the "heat soaking"take place? How did the brakes fare on your track days testing both cars?
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Old 01-03-2013, 11:36 AM   #341
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Hopefully they will put out some decent numbers. When it comes to Dodge, you wont know until its on the showroom floor. LOL
I want to see the new Dodge vehicles. I guess I'm fortunate as there is a local Dodge dealer, Ford dealer and Chevy dealer all located near each other. I have never bought one (yet) but have several times with both GM and Ford.
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:39 PM   #342
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Heat soak happens when a car is off or sits and idles, such as when its waiting to do a 1/4 mile...which is why the drag guys always bring it up.

On a road coarse, or while moving at all, it very unlikely any of these cars will experience heat soak...so I'm not sure why that was brought up
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:45 PM   #343
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There isn't a peep out of the Ford boys about this. But I don't think they really care. The age demographic is younger and they're more concerned about the 1/4 mile.

I can tell you that their going to feel the pain when next year's Mustang gets an IRS.

I'm not a fan of the new LT1 GM is trotting out. But if they put it in the Alpha platform, that should really make the competition interesting.
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Old 01-03-2013, 12:57 PM   #344
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Heat soak happens when a car is off or sits and idles, such as when its waiting to do a 1/4 mile...which is why the drag guys always bring it up.

On a road coarse, or while moving at all, it very unlikely any of these cars will experience heat soak...so I'm not sure why that was brought up
Uhhhhhh, heat soak is either when the car is sitting......OR.... when the heat exchanger cannot get the heat out of the fluid fast enough causing HEAT SOAK even if the car is moving. Really dont have to get into it very much because its well known about it. Look it up.......I guess you could google ZL1 heat soak and see....

Im not talking about heat soak in the engine while sitting. Im talking about heat soak of the heat exchanger, intercooler itself which does happen becaue of crappy heat exchangers......

As far as the GT500 "brake issue", there is none. MT was the only one that mentioned it and pretty much determined that something was not right with that car itself. Go ahead and look that one up too. Its easy.
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Old 01-03-2013, 01:55 PM   #345
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Uhhhhhh, heat soak is either when the car is sitting......OR.... when the heat exchanger cannot get the heat out of the fluid fast enough causing HEAT SOAK even if the car is moving. Really dont have to get into it very much because its well known about it. Look it up.......I guess you could google ZL1 heat soak and see....

Im not talking about heat soak in the engine while sitting. Im talking about heat soak of the heat exchanger, intercooler itself which does happen becaue of crappy heat exchangers......

As far as the GT500 "brake issue", there is none. MT was the only one that mentioned it and pretty much determined that something was not right with that car itself. Go ahead and look that one up too. Its easy.
I do recall watching at least 3 vids where they mention the brake fade. Don't recall which ones though. I dont remember anybody mentioning heat soak on either car.
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Old 01-03-2013, 02:20 PM   #346
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Ignition Chasing 200mph in the 2013 GT500

At around 4min 31sec, Braking is described.

"Now for a 60 to 0 brake test. Our test stop from 60 to 0 took 101 Ft, uh, but following stops took longer and produced a lot of brake odor."






Motor Trend Head to Head 2013 GT500 vs 2012 Camaro ZL1

At 2min 22sec, Angus says "Initially when you hit the brakes, pedal feel is strong, and you stop really suddenly. But, I sense the brakes are going away a little bit, even on these canyon roads. There's not quite the authority to the stopping power that there was ten minutes ago."

At 9min 08 sec, Randy Pobst says, "Does not stop as well as the Camaro". Then at 9min 20 sec, he says "Kinda scary in the braking department". Then at 10min 33sec, Randy says, "...Don't like the braking."





Motor Trend 2013 Ford Shelby GT500 Hot Lap! - 2012 Best Driver's Car Contender

At 1min 46 sec Rand says "Wooo, less confidence on the brakes. The Mustang well get into kind of a weird slide mode, it's disconcerting" and then at 2min 14sec Randy says, "Yeah the braking, not as confidence inspiring as the Camaro"

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Old 01-03-2013, 02:51 PM   #347
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Ignition Chasing 200mph in the 2013 GT500

Right around 4min 31sec, Braking is described.

"Now for a 60 to 0 brake test. Our test stop from 60 to 0 took 101 Ft, uh, but following stops took longer and produced a lot of brake odor."
Gotta love the Brembo pads......Im sure if you took the ZL1 out and did 3 or more hard 0-60 stops they will not be the same from the first and have brake odor. Brembo pads do that.....Thats not the same as the total "brake fade" on the track that MT (Randy) was describing. Van didnt seem to have any brake issues at all after 20 hard minutes at Homestead.....Interesting.

Watch the beginning of this video and read.....

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Old 01-03-2013, 03:09 PM   #348
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Gotta love the Brembo pads......Im sure if you took the ZL1 out and did 3 or more hard 0-60 stops they will not be the same from the first and have brake odor. Brembo pads do that.....Thats not the same as the total "brake fade" on the track that MT (Randy) was describing. Van didnt seem to have any brake issues at all after 20 hard laps at Homestead.....Interesting.
Hmmmm. What a dilemma? Who to believe. Randy Pobst, a professional racer who admittedly loves the GT500 and Automotive experts from multiple publications who also give the GT500 its due credit.

...Or some guy named Van who did some laps at weekend track down in Florida with an obvious agenda.

Revan Racing, Inc. - Performance Parts for Late Model Mustangs

OH what's this? Is this Revan Racing advertising Hawk Performance Brake Pads? No they wouldn't be the least bit hypocritical would they?

"These are the pads that we use at Revan Racing on our Time Trial GT500 on the front with OEM Brembo Calipers."
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Old 01-03-2013, 03:21 PM   #349
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It's possible, certainly not provable, that Chevy did everything in their power to make the Camaro perform to its fullest. Afterall, following the owners manual instructions is definitely NOT cheating. Chevy might have put the proper brake fluid in the Car. Ford clearly didn't... That of course is just all hypotheticals


And adding new brake pads isn't going to help if you use the same crappy fluid

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Old 01-03-2013, 03:28 PM   #350
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Hmmmm. What a dilemma? Who to believe. Randy Pobst, a professional racer who admittedly loves the GT500 and Automotive experts from multiple publications who also give the GT500 its due credit.

...Or some guy named Van who did some laps at weekend track down in Florida with an obvious agenda.
LOL.....thats a good one. Van is not just a weekend racer. Might wanna look into that.
And by the way, that video of Van was with STOCK BRAKE PADS!!!!! Not the hawk that MOST PEOPLE SELL!!!!
Here is one quote from Van himself........

"I've run with Randy at Daytona for a number of years and if Randy Pobst says he had brake fade I completely believe him. I honestly believe somebody didn't prep the car prior to his testing. Randy is an amazing driver and I believe that the car wasn't prepared adequately. That is the only test where a pro driver had a brake fade issue. Isolate incidence???????? I hammered these brakes today and Randy has given me tips on braking in the past.

If that's what they want to hang there hat on...........they've got bigger problems."
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