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Tuning / Diagnostics -- engine and transmission Tune and diagnostics for engines and auto transmission.

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Old 01-08-2013, 01:57 PM   #1
KalCorp
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What to look for in Data Log?

What to look for in Data Log?

V6 LLT

Did a quick WOT datalog with my EZFlash. and just checking it out with Data Log Visualizer

What do i want to look for to see if there is anything that can be improved?

Using 93oct Gas and reset ECU before run

Just some info i noted:

Ambient Air Temp- AAT@73.4

Log frame 35 1 Gear RPM 651.75 @ 0mph Intake Air Temp@98.6 - Knock Retard: 0
Log frame 76 1 Gear RPM up to 6349.25 @ 45.98mph Intake Air Temp@91.4 - Knock Retard: 2.988281
Log frame 113 2 Gear RPM up to 6891.25 @ 72.70mph Intake Air Temp@86 - Knock Retard: 2.988281
Log frame 189 3 Gear RPM up to 6395.25 @ 105.01mph Intake Air Temp@86 - Knock Retard: 2.197266
Log frame 200 3 Gear RPM 3733.5 @ 103.14mph Intake Air Temp@86 - Knock Retard: 0

Here is a log in CVS format
http://floridacamaroclubs.is-into-ca...ile.php?id=146
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Last edited by KalCorp; 01-09-2013 at 07:27 AM.
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Old 01-08-2013, 08:23 PM   #2
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The biggest thing that stands out is your are getting a ton of knock retard. You either found the worst gas station in your state or something is triggering the knock sensors like exhaust hitting the cross member. The ecm should not have to pull timing like that.
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Old 01-08-2013, 09:48 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2SSCAMARO View Post
The biggest thing that stands out is your are getting a ton of knock retard. You either found the worst gas station in your state or something is triggering the knock sensors like exhaust hitting the cross member. The ecm should not have to pull timing like that.
Thanks i will look into this.

Would be nice to see a log from someone else :-)

Should there just be no Knock? or just a little on WOT? whats the common for everyone ?


The WOT run was from 30 to 200
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Last edited by KalCorp; 01-08-2013 at 10:33 PM.
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Old 01-08-2013, 10:07 PM   #4
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Thanks i will look into this.

Would be nice to see a log from someone else :-)


But from what i can see the timing advance is not changed because of the Knock retard. Or a, I just looking at this wrong.
Should there just be no Knock? or just a little on WOT? whats the common for everyone?


The WOT run was from 30 to 200

I don't have a log handy on my phone but other than a very very tiny knock ( burst knock)on the launch my car has zero knock on a 9.8 pass. One thing that helps is I run a full tank of 104 octane but I also run 16+ psi and nitrous.
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Old 01-08-2013, 10:27 PM   #5
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Remember this is a LLT V6 don't know if it is different.

I only had 93 octane from normal Florida pump maybe i will try something better and see if it helps.

But i just checked a normal drive around data Log with no WOT. But i was getting on it some and it has 0 Knock. I would think if it was anything hitting something i would see it in normal driving also. Or maybe it only hits when i am in WOT?

IDK :-(
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Old 01-08-2013, 10:39 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by KalCorp View Post
Remember this is a LLT V6 don't know if it is different.

I only had 93 octane from normal Florida pump maybe i will try something better and see if it helps.

But i just checked a normal drive around data Log with no WOT. But i was getting on it some and it has 0 Knock. I would think if it was anything hitting something i would see it in normal driving also. Or maybe it only hits when i am in WOT?

IDK :-(
My bad. I'm retarded!! I need to start reading what category I'm in.

Could be false knock caused by anything. I had the converter bolts loosen up and start banging and it was getting serious knock. Happened to be going into the semi final of the camaro fest but that's racing. If it looks like a lot of knock its prob false. Could def only hit only wot.
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Old 01-17-2013, 02:04 PM   #7
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OK got my response back from sending in my DataLog

"We've reviewed the log and it looks absolutely spot on. Infact, this is one of the strongest running LLT cars we've seen a log from. Whoever made those comments about the timing doesn't have any experience with tuning LLT Camaros. They have a "Ton of knock retard" even on the stock tune- this is due to the way GM calibrated how knock is reported"

Going to have the Dyno done and see where i stand.
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Old 01-17-2013, 02:32 PM   #8
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OK got my response back from sending in my DataLog

"We've reviewed the log and it looks absolutely spot on. Infact, this is one of the strongest running LLT cars we've seen a log from. Whoever made those comments about the timing doesn't have any experience with tuning LLT Camaros. They have a "Ton of knock retard" even on the stock tune- this is due to the way GM calibrated how knock is reported"

Going to have the Dyno done and see where i stand.
Whom ever the we are in "we've reviewed the log and it looks spot on", I believe are the people who have little experience in tuning and reading a log. If you look at the CSV file provided at lines 67 to 191, you'll see as much as four and one-half degrees of timing being pulled. If the ecm had been tuned by a tuner instead of a tooner, there would not be a single degree of retard except for perhaps a small brief amount of burst knock at launch. If you want to see what a WOT 1/4 mile log with not even one degree of retard looks like, let me know and I'll show you some.
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Old 01-17-2013, 09:49 PM   #9
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What is "knock retard"? And what kind of issues could arise if left untreated?
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Old 01-17-2013, 09:50 PM   #10
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What is "knock retard"? And what kind of issues could arise if left untreated?
Knock retard = ECM pulling timing = car performs worse than it should.
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Old 02-08-2013, 03:57 PM   #11
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What to look for in Data Log?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2SSCAMARO View Post
Whom ever the we are in "we've reviewed the log and it looks spot on", I believe are the people who have little experience in tuning and reading a log. If you look at the CSV file provided at lines 67 to 191, you'll see as much as four and one-half degrees of timing being pulled. If the ecm had been tuned by a tuner instead of a tooner, there would not be a single degree of retard except for perhaps a small brief amount of burst knock at launch. If you want to see what a WOT 1/4 mile log with not even one degree of retard looks like, let me know and I'll show you some.
I would agree if we where talking about a V8. However if you read the post we are not.

And the "WE" was "Trifecta" you know the ones that made the tune in the first place. I take it you dont have a LLT or LFX?

And even after the Dyno the car did very well. its listed in the mid to top spots for the mod's that i have. And the dyno even made the Knock 2 times worse up to 8 degrees! The same issues most everyone else is getting with these LLT/LFX Camaros!

Last edited by KalCorp; 02-08-2013 at 04:41 PM.
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Old 02-08-2013, 06:19 PM   #12
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No, mine is not a six cylinder but I would ask this question....Whether it's a four, six, eight, or ten cylinder, if the ECM is going to pull four to eight degrees of timing when you go WOT, what benefit is there to have the excess advance timing in the tune if the ECM is only going to remove it. I still suggest that if the fueling and timing is correct, the ECM will not pull that much timing. Perhaps some of the professional tuners on the forum can comment.
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Old 02-08-2013, 06:33 PM   #13
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There are reports of it going 10+. And alot of people tuning these V6's have seen false knock on a near factory vehicle and on supercharged ones.

It s big issue they are still trying to work out.

I am hoping soon, people working with the knock sensor charts, by logging and analyzing data (Not just removing them!!) They can scale back the knock sensors to allow for resonance due to modifications that may set off factory sensors (Such as headers, superchargers, etc.). - Thanks Matt@FSP for some of that!
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:39 PM   #14
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here's a couple things I see if im reading your graph properly, but nothing crazy:

While in WOT, looks like bank 2 is pulling about 3% of fuel and bank 1 isn't. If they were both pulling fuel, Id like the picture of information better.

Most of the time being + or - is carried over from the overall LTFT being slight off. Since they are not even, you may have a slight intrusion of unmetered air on the bank 2 side. That can be a little leak from the exhaust. I can live with the bank 1 numbers.

Looks like you have 1-3 degrees of KR (General). I like to remove knock before it occurs not where it occurs. Id remove 1 degree in the predicated G/CYL vs RPM area to see if it removes the rest of the KR in the affected area. Easier to do with a vehicle on 93 octane than 87. Most guys in V6 use 87 octane and its a PITA to calibrate the spark tables.

Its not clear why the RPMs drop from 6349 to 4416 and your MAF Hz withdrew lower while still in WOT. Looks like the pedal is still to the metal, but torque management is reducing performance.

Being a V6, there has been some reported calibration problems while your committed to 100 % throttle, the ECM didn't commit.

Really nothing crazy off, just a couple things I saw.

You can gain more HP and add more timing if you numb your knock sensors. Ill take the lower number, and keep the car safer.
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Old 02-09-2013, 01:50 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2SSCAMARO View Post
Whom ever the we are in "we've reviewed the log and it looks spot on", I believe are the people who have little experience in tuning and reading a log. If you look at the CSV file provided at lines 67 to 191, you'll see as much as four and one-half degrees of timing being pulled. If the ecm had been tuned by a tuner instead of a tooner, there would not be a single degree of retard except for perhaps a small brief amount of burst knock at launch. If you want to see what a WOT 1/4 mile log with not even one degree of retard looks like, let me know and I'll show you some.

I'm not going to get into an argument or specifics with you but you have to understand how the LLT works and what we do in our tunes before you comment. The LLT stock calibration throws a ton of timing at the motor and then backs it down as needed. The Trifecta tune doesn't command more timing at all. The main thing we do in the LLT tune is change the cam phasing, which "artificially" lowers the compression ratio a bit and allows the car to run more timing. We don't tell it to run more, the ECM does that on it's own. That's where we found power on the LLT tune.
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Old 02-09-2013, 03:11 PM   #16
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What to look for in Data Log?

Thanks TT and BNR for the comments.

While I know this LLT seams to be different on how it acts it is nice to see different comments from people. One day we will nail this down for everyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tampa Tuning View Post
Its not clear why the RPMs drop from 6349 to 4416 and your MAF Hz withdrew lower while still in WOT. Looks like the pedal is still to the metal, but torque management is reducing performance.
I believe that is when it shifted into 2nd gear :-)

FYI. I am only using 93 oct.
I have added a spacer under intake and put on long tube headers. It's more than possible there is a small leak. I can fix it if I know where to start.

Last edited by KalCorp; 02-09-2013 at 03:41 PM.
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Old 02-09-2013, 03:15 PM   #17
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I do not want to be argumentative either. I'm just saying an engine is not tuned properly when the ECM regularly pulls several degrees of timing. When adequate octane fuel is used and the tune parameters for MAF, fueling, timing etc. are maximized, several degrees of knock retard should not occur. My experiences are that when the ECM pulls timing, it does it quickly and may even pull more than is warranted for the conditions being encountered. If it does give timing back while under WOT conditions, it does so much more slowly than when it pulled the timing. I am suggesting that setting the advance to a degree where the ECM no longer pulls several degrees of timing will produce better performance than running excess advance and allowing the ECM to take it away and give it back willy nilly.
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Old 02-09-2013, 04:24 PM   #18
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how do i bring up my data log up like that?
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Old 02-10-2013, 01:44 AM   #19
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how do i bring up my data log up like that?
There is a viewer for the logs. It was posted on their forms sometime ago.

I have to get the name next time I get online for you. Or do a search for ez-flash data log viewer
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