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Old 02-15-2013, 03:12 PM   #15
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Ryan2011RS....

Before you do ANYTHING, you need to do extensive research in a few key areas for the LLT:

1)Number one issue us tuning. Can ANYONE tune the Bosch ECM in the LLT correctly to support this kind of setup? It has never been done....at least not by a member on here. Gretchen tried his hardest with Trifecta, God bless him lol, but in the end getting much over 400 - 450rwhp just didn't happen. I believe he recorded nearly 500rwhp once on the dyno, but I don't think they were able to sustain it safely with the tune. He has since moved on to a 2012 V6 with the Delphi ECM, and has had great success.

I'm not saying it can't be tuned, but besides Trifecta, that leaves IPF tuning. Would they tune a car not running an FI kit from them? I don't know about that. No other companies that I know of offer custom tuning for the LLT.

The tune is crucial. Without a decent tune, your build is junk.

2) The fuel issue. The LLT doesn't supply quiet as much fuel as the LFX (I think due to a better pump?...not sure). Typically, in past LLT builds they saw fuel issues in the upper rpms when builds went much pas the 400+rwhp range. Most of the time, meth was used to supplement the fuel, although I'm not sure if that is a safe approach. So moving on...due to point number one above, I'm not sure there has ever been any added fuel system support ever used on an LLT that is proven to be reliable and effective....simply b/c no LLT has ever produced the kind of power you are shooting for. I'd look long and hard into the "solutions" out there.

3) Are you talking 600+rwhp or crank? As I said before, Gretchen approached 600HP at the crank with his LLT, but it wasn't sustained. Past that is uncharted territory. You'll want the whole bang up of forged internal parts of course assuming you can even get to this range.

anyways, my whole point here is that I don't want to see you drop 10 - 20 grand on new parts broken/replacement parts, labor, tune, not to mention chasis and suspension work, only to find out in the end the thing can't be tuned and runs like crap.

Do your homework and make a smart decision. Don't throw away money simply because you have it (unless your so damn filthy rich that it won't hurt you lol)
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Old 02-15-2013, 05:27 PM   #16
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All that hp is a waste unless you work on the suspension, beefing it up to handle the extra hp,
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Old 02-15-2013, 06:01 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMPrenger View Post
Ryan2011RS....

Before you do ANYTHING, you need to do extensive research in a few key areas for the LLT:

1)Number one issue us tuning. Can ANYONE tune the Bosch ECM in the LLT correctly to support this kind of setup? It has never been done....at least not by a member on here. Gretchen tried his hardest with Trifecta, God bless him lol, but in the end getting much over 400 - 450rwhp just didn't happen. I believe he recorded nearly 500rwhp once on the dyno, but I don't think they were able to sustain it safely with the tune. He has since moved on to a 2012 V6 with the Delphi ECM, and has had great success.

I'm not saying it can't be tuned, but besides Trifecta, that leaves IPF tuning. Would they tune a car not running an FI kit from them? I don't know about that. No other companies that I know of offer custom tuning for the LLT.

The tune is crucial. Without a decent tune, your build is junk.

2) The fuel issue. The LLT doesn't supply quiet as much fuel as the LFX (I think due to a better pump?...not sure). Typically, in past LLT builds they saw fuel issues in the upper rpms when builds went much pas the 400+rwhp range. Most of the time, meth was used to supplement the fuel, although I'm not sure if that is a safe approach. So moving on...due to point number one above, I'm not sure there has ever been any added fuel system support ever used on an LLT that is proven to be reliable and effective....simply b/c no LLT has ever produced the kind of power you are shooting for. I'd look long and hard into the "solutions" out there.

3) Are you talking 600+rwhp or crank? As I said before, Gretchen approached 600HP at the crank with his LLT, but it wasn't sustained. Past that is uncharted territory. You'll want the whole bang up of forged internal parts of course assuming you can even get to this range.

anyways, my whole point here is that I don't want to see you drop 10 - 20 grand on new parts broken/replacement parts, labor, tune, not to mention chasis and suspension work, only to find out in the end the thing can't be tuned and runs like crap.

Do your homework and make a smart decision. Don't throw away money simply because you have it (unless your so damn filthy rich that it won't hurt you lol)
Exactly. I hope to see someone building a 5th Gen V6 putting down 700+ RWHP someday, but realistically I think it will take a while and a lot of money. It will definitely be harder with the LLT than the LFX. Think long and hard...learn from those that have gone before you.
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Old 02-15-2013, 06:52 PM   #18
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Im shooting for 600 at the wheels with mine maybe. Im getting new heads and pistons I already have an efr turbo and meth. Im gonna put a tremec tko tranny with an adapter to my v6 with a custom driveshaft and 3.91 gears in the rear. I was wondering if you just made the last lobe on the cam a little longer would pump more fuel and then add a zl1 fuel pump
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Old 02-15-2013, 08:35 PM   #19
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Adding the height might be maxing out the stroke on the pump, but keep us posted
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Old 02-15-2013, 08:40 PM   #20
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600 rwhp keep us posted.


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Old 02-15-2013, 08:48 PM   #21
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Adding the height might be maxing out the stroke on the pump, but keep us posted
I would look at adding a fourth lobe first. I think the piston in the pump is probably at full travel now. Anything we do now could lead to over fueling at low rpm. A secondary pump might work, but it may also over fuel. I think the real solution is either a different pump or port injection at higher rpms.

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Old 02-15-2013, 09:59 PM   #22
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Ryan2011rs,

Lets do some cave man math.

-Stock 2011 LS HP = 251 RWHP
-Full suite of bolt on mods= 20ish RWHP
-FI mods simply by boost = 200ish RWHP (assuming 10Psi x 20 RWHP per 1Lb of boost) and you will need meth to get to 10Psi by the way.

Grand total potentially= 471 RWHP (on a good day if your lucky and none of us with a V6 FI are making this consistently by the way).

Just by cave man math alone how do you expect to gain another 130 RWHP to meet your 600 HP goal? It is not possible. The FI boost level would need to be 15Psi+ to get where you want to be just to barely get to 600 HP assuming fueling/tune is not an issue.

Since you are rolling in the dough and have plenty of cars to drive just buy a SS and put $20K into it and make 800 HP+. I know it would be very nice to say you are the first V6 to make XXX amount of HP. But a reality check would be the Jay Leno car and we all know round about how much that guy makes ($180 Mil net worth and $30 Mil annual salary). His car is clocked at 420 HP and is a Twin Turbo built by GM.

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/cars/c...ml#item=223986

I would love to see you get there and think it is a interesting idea but in all reality you are barking up the wrong tree and your resources are better utilized to invest in a SS/Zl1 to get the HP gains you seek.

Last edited by elsololobo02; 02-15-2013 at 10:34 PM. Reason: Reality check
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Old 02-15-2013, 11:09 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elsololobo02 View Post
Ryan2011rs,

Lets do some cave man math.

-Stock 2011 LS HP = 251 RWHP
-Full suite of bolt on mods= 20ish RWHP
-FI mods simply by boost = 200ish RWHP (assuming 10Psi x 20 RWHP per 1Lb of boost) and you will need meth to get to 10Psi by the way.

Grand total potentially= 471 RWHP (on a good day if your lucky and none of us with a V6 FI are making this consistently by the way).

Just by cave man math alone how do you expect to gain another 130 RWHP to meet your 600 HP goal? It is not possible. The FI boost level would need to be 15Psi+ to get where you want to be just to barely get to 600 HP assuming fueling/tune is not an issue.

Since you are rolling in the dough and have plenty of cars to drive just buy a SS and put $20K into it and make 800 HP+. I know it would be very nice to say you are the first V6 to make XXX amount of HP. But a reality check would be the Jay Leno car and we all know round about how much that guy makes ($180 Mil net worth and $30 Mil annual salary). His car is clocked at 420 HP and is a Twin Turbo built by GM.

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/cars/c...ml#item=223986

I would love to see you get there and think it is a interesting idea but in all reality you are barking up the wrong tree and your resources are better utilized to invest in a SS/Zl1 to get the HP gains you seek.
I hate to say it but those that are telling you it isnt possible are probably right.
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:40 AM   #24
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ahhhh i dont want to believe all this doubt !! BUT, i do. I just have hope, and as i may never reach my goals of being one with over 600 hp whether its to the wheels or at the crank, i still would love to get the most out of my camaro . i had the chance back in the summer to upgrade to an SS but i chose not to as i already had my v6 far from stock, and wouldve lost alot on it and lost alot of time and effort that i had put in the first car i had bought. And i feel it is too easy to achieve great numbers out of a v8, and would love to just absolutely make guys with beefed SS's and ZL1's wonder and want to know how i just beat them with my v6. With all that said im still gunna try my best and keep going with it. not that im going to just throw twin turbos in and throw everything on at once. I want to make this a project. NO by No means am i just rolling in cash to just throw away but i have become obsessed with my car since i bought it, and all these new parts being available for our v6s just makes me more optimistic.. BUT i do know that things will go wrong and parts will be replaced but i plan to keep my car for a longggggg time.. that is until the engine is completely shot and he transmission and other parts..

But like tracy said now they have a stroker forged crank almost ready to release just keeps me optimistic.. as i understand tuning issues and fuel issues will be ran into i hope some ppl are here with me on this and would love to help get us the numbers that we have the desire to achieve.. By no means am i throwing away everybodys advice to rethink what im talking about and fold before i end up losing way bigger than i could imagine..

BUT I AM going to build up this motor with all proven parts with proven results. i will be creating a big build thread once i get into all my performance mods which will start in the spring.

Who knows if this will happen, EVER, but i will be putting my money into beefing up this beautiful car that i own. It will take alot of time and alot of my money, but im in. You guys here on these forums have made me soooo anxious and very excited seeing what you all have done with these cars. And have made me want to be a big part of this and even maybe one day a game changer .
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:42 AM   #25
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also guys what all would i need suspension wise? i have springs and will be working on control arms as well as sway bars and end links, but im new to big HP numbers, so not totally sure.. all the help possible would greatly be apreciated
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Old 02-16-2013, 01:19 AM   #26
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also guys what all would i need suspension wise? i have springs and will be working on control arms as well as sway bars and end links, but im new to big HP numbers, so not totally sure.. all the help possible would greatly be apreciated
I would replace all your bushings with polyurethane. I would talk to chase at apex about suspension since he gives really really good advice.
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Old 02-16-2013, 01:27 AM   #27
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ahhhh i dont want to believe all this doubt !! BUT, i do. I just have hope, and as i may never reach my goals of being one with over 600 hp whether its to the wheels or at the crank, i still would love to get the most out of my camaro . i had the chance back in the summer to upgrade to an SS but i chose not to as i already had my v6 far from stock, and wouldve lost alot on it and lost alot of time and effort that i had put in the first car i had bought. And i feel it is too easy to achieve great numbers out of a v8, and would love to just absolutely make guys with beefed SS's and ZL1's wonder and want to know how i just beat them with my v6. With all that said im still gunna try my best and keep going with it. not that im going to just throw twin turbos in and throw everything on at once. I want to make this a project. NO by No means am i just rolling in cash to just throw away but i have become obsessed with my car since i bought it, and all these new parts being available for our v6s just makes me more optimistic.. BUT i do know that things will go wrong and parts will be replaced but i plan to keep my car for a longggggg time.. that is until the engine is completely shot and he transmission and other parts..

But like tracy said now they have a stroker forged crank almost ready to release just keeps me optimistic.. as i understand tuning issues and fuel issues will be ran into i hope some ppl are here with me on this and would love to help get us the numbers that we have the desire to achieve.. By no means am i throwing away everybodys advice to rethink what im talking about and fold before i end up losing way bigger than i could imagine..

BUT I AM going to build up this motor with all proven parts with proven results. i will be creating a big build thread once i get into all my performance mods which will start in the spring.

Who knows if this will happen, EVER, but i will be putting my money into beefing up this beautiful car that i own. It will take alot of time and alot of my money, but im in. You guys here on these forums have made me soooo anxious and very excited seeing what you all have done with these cars. And have made me want to be a big part of this and even maybe one day a game changer .
The thing is that it's not really so much a doubt as more of a lack of tuning and fuel. The reason the v8s can get a bunch of power out of their cars is because their engines have been around for a long time and the tuning and fueling aspect of their cars is taken care of pretty well. If we had reliable tuning and had the ability to put more fuel into the car, it would be a piece of cake getting more out of the car. I mean just look at the LFX. It's also direct injected but the reason it's easier to get more power out of that is because it can be tuned easily and it has 10% better fueling than the LLT. I don't think anyone means to discourage you but a lot have gone down this path and haven't gotten very far. A lot of the reason a lot of companies haven't given it their all is because of the tuning aspect of it. Until that can be ironed down well, I'm afraid we will never get big numbers out of this motor.


If you throw in a supercharger or a twin kit, you'll be able to keep up with mildly modded v8s and stock zl1s but I hate to say it but this car will never be able to keep up with the heavily modded v8s or modded zl1s.
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Old 02-16-2013, 01:42 AM   #28
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I see this thread and all I can think is 'F***ing BOSCH!

Swear they tuned the ZL1 though? Or atleast the launch control is from Bosch. How are they tuning the ZL1?
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