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Old 02-15-2013, 07:52 PM   #18
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Im shooting for 600 at the wheels with mine maybe. Im getting new heads and pistons I already have an efr turbo and meth. Im gonna put a tremec tko tranny with an adapter to my v6 with a custom driveshaft and 3.91 gears in the rear. I was wondering if you just made the last lobe on the cam a little longer would pump more fuel and then add a zl1 fuel pump
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Old 02-15-2013, 09:35 PM   #19
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Adding the height might be maxing out the stroke on the pump, but keep us posted
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Old 02-15-2013, 09:40 PM   #20
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600 rwhp keep us posted.


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Old 02-15-2013, 09:48 PM   #21
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Adding the height might be maxing out the stroke on the pump, but keep us posted
I would look at adding a fourth lobe first. I think the piston in the pump is probably at full travel now. Anything we do now could lead to over fueling at low rpm. A secondary pump might work, but it may also over fuel. I think the real solution is either a different pump or port injection at higher rpms.

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Old 02-15-2013, 10:59 PM   #22
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Ryan2011rs,

Lets do some cave man math.

-Stock 2011 LS HP = 251 RWHP
-Full suite of bolt on mods= 20ish RWHP
-FI mods simply by boost = 200ish RWHP (assuming 10Psi x 20 RWHP per 1Lb of boost) and you will need meth to get to 10Psi by the way.

Grand total potentially= 471 RWHP (on a good day if your lucky and none of us with a V6 FI are making this consistently by the way).

Just by cave man math alone how do you expect to gain another 130 RWHP to meet your 600 HP goal? It is not possible. The FI boost level would need to be 15Psi+ to get where you want to be just to barely get to 600 HP assuming fueling/tune is not an issue.

Since you are rolling in the dough and have plenty of cars to drive just buy a SS and put $20K into it and make 800 HP+. I know it would be very nice to say you are the first V6 to make XXX amount of HP. But a reality check would be the Jay Leno car and we all know round about how much that guy makes ($180 Mil net worth and $30 Mil annual salary). His car is clocked at 420 HP and is a Twin Turbo built by GM.

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/cars/c...ml#item=223986

I would love to see you get there and think it is a interesting idea but in all reality you are barking up the wrong tree and your resources are better utilized to invest in a SS/Zl1 to get the HP gains you seek.

Last edited by elsololobo02; 02-15-2013 at 11:34 PM. Reason: Reality check
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Old 02-16-2013, 12:09 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elsololobo02 View Post
Ryan2011rs,

Lets do some cave man math.

-Stock 2011 LS HP = 251 RWHP
-Full suite of bolt on mods= 20ish RWHP
-FI mods simply by boost = 200ish RWHP (assuming 10Psi x 20 RWHP per 1Lb of boost) and you will need meth to get to 10Psi by the way.

Grand total potentially= 471 RWHP (on a good day if your lucky and none of us with a V6 FI are making this consistently by the way).

Just by cave man math alone how do you expect to gain another 130 RWHP to meet your 600 HP goal? It is not possible. The FI boost level would need to be 15Psi+ to get where you want to be just to barely get to 600 HP assuming fueling/tune is not an issue.

Since you are rolling in the dough and have plenty of cars to drive just buy a SS and put $20K into it and make 800 HP+. I know it would be very nice to say you are the first V6 to make XXX amount of HP. But a reality check would be the Jay Leno car and we all know round about how much that guy makes ($180 Mil net worth and $30 Mil annual salary). His car is clocked at 420 HP and is a Twin Turbo built by GM.

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/cars/c...ml#item=223986

I would love to see you get there and think it is a interesting idea but in all reality you are barking up the wrong tree and your resources are better utilized to invest in a SS/Zl1 to get the HP gains you seek.
I hate to say it but those that are telling you it isnt possible are probably right.
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Old 02-16-2013, 01:40 AM   #24
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ahhhh i dont want to believe all this doubt !! BUT, i do. I just have hope, and as i may never reach my goals of being one with over 600 hp whether its to the wheels or at the crank, i still would love to get the most out of my camaro . i had the chance back in the summer to upgrade to an SS but i chose not to as i already had my v6 far from stock, and wouldve lost alot on it and lost alot of time and effort that i had put in the first car i had bought. And i feel it is too easy to achieve great numbers out of a v8, and would love to just absolutely make guys with beefed SS's and ZL1's wonder and want to know how i just beat them with my v6. With all that said im still gunna try my best and keep going with it. not that im going to just throw twin turbos in and throw everything on at once. I want to make this a project. NO by No means am i just rolling in cash to just throw away but i have become obsessed with my car since i bought it, and all these new parts being available for our v6s just makes me more optimistic.. BUT i do know that things will go wrong and parts will be replaced but i plan to keep my car for a longggggg time.. that is until the engine is completely shot and he transmission and other parts..

But like tracy said now they have a stroker forged crank almost ready to release just keeps me optimistic.. as i understand tuning issues and fuel issues will be ran into i hope some ppl are here with me on this and would love to help get us the numbers that we have the desire to achieve.. By no means am i throwing away everybodys advice to rethink what im talking about and fold before i end up losing way bigger than i could imagine..

BUT I AM going to build up this motor with all proven parts with proven results. i will be creating a big build thread once i get into all my performance mods which will start in the spring.

Who knows if this will happen, EVER, but i will be putting my money into beefing up this beautiful car that i own. It will take alot of time and alot of my money, but im in. You guys here on these forums have made me soooo anxious and very excited seeing what you all have done with these cars. And have made me want to be a big part of this and even maybe one day a game changer .
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Old 02-16-2013, 01:42 AM   #25
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also guys what all would i need suspension wise? i have springs and will be working on control arms as well as sway bars and end links, but im new to big HP numbers, so not totally sure.. all the help possible would greatly be apreciated
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Old 02-16-2013, 02:19 AM   #26
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also guys what all would i need suspension wise? i have springs and will be working on control arms as well as sway bars and end links, but im new to big HP numbers, so not totally sure.. all the help possible would greatly be apreciated
I would replace all your bushings with polyurethane. I would talk to chase at apex about suspension since he gives really really good advice.
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Old 02-16-2013, 02:27 AM   #27
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ahhhh i dont want to believe all this doubt !! BUT, i do. I just have hope, and as i may never reach my goals of being one with over 600 hp whether its to the wheels or at the crank, i still would love to get the most out of my camaro . i had the chance back in the summer to upgrade to an SS but i chose not to as i already had my v6 far from stock, and wouldve lost alot on it and lost alot of time and effort that i had put in the first car i had bought. And i feel it is too easy to achieve great numbers out of a v8, and would love to just absolutely make guys with beefed SS's and ZL1's wonder and want to know how i just beat them with my v6. With all that said im still gunna try my best and keep going with it. not that im going to just throw twin turbos in and throw everything on at once. I want to make this a project. NO by No means am i just rolling in cash to just throw away but i have become obsessed with my car since i bought it, and all these new parts being available for our v6s just makes me more optimistic.. BUT i do know that things will go wrong and parts will be replaced but i plan to keep my car for a longggggg time.. that is until the engine is completely shot and he transmission and other parts..

But like tracy said now they have a stroker forged crank almost ready to release just keeps me optimistic.. as i understand tuning issues and fuel issues will be ran into i hope some ppl are here with me on this and would love to help get us the numbers that we have the desire to achieve.. By no means am i throwing away everybodys advice to rethink what im talking about and fold before i end up losing way bigger than i could imagine..

BUT I AM going to build up this motor with all proven parts with proven results. i will be creating a big build thread once i get into all my performance mods which will start in the spring.

Who knows if this will happen, EVER, but i will be putting my money into beefing up this beautiful car that i own. It will take alot of time and alot of my money, but im in. You guys here on these forums have made me soooo anxious and very excited seeing what you all have done with these cars. And have made me want to be a big part of this and even maybe one day a game changer .
The thing is that it's not really so much a doubt as more of a lack of tuning and fuel. The reason the v8s can get a bunch of power out of their cars is because their engines have been around for a long time and the tuning and fueling aspect of their cars is taken care of pretty well. If we had reliable tuning and had the ability to put more fuel into the car, it would be a piece of cake getting more out of the car. I mean just look at the LFX. It's also direct injected but the reason it's easier to get more power out of that is because it can be tuned easily and it has 10% better fueling than the LLT. I don't think anyone means to discourage you but a lot have gone down this path and haven't gotten very far. A lot of the reason a lot of companies haven't given it their all is because of the tuning aspect of it. Until that can be ironed down well, I'm afraid we will never get big numbers out of this motor.


If you throw in a supercharger or a twin kit, you'll be able to keep up with mildly modded v8s and stock zl1s but I hate to say it but this car will never be able to keep up with the heavily modded v8s or modded zl1s.
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Old 02-16-2013, 02:42 AM   #28
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I see this thread and all I can think is 'F***ing BOSCH!

Swear they tuned the ZL1 though? Or atleast the launch control is from Bosch. How are they tuning the ZL1?
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Old 02-16-2013, 08:44 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elsololobo02 View Post
Ryan2011rs,

Lets do some cave man math.

-Stock 2011 LS HP = 251 RWHP
-Full suite of bolt on mods= 20ish RWHP
-FI mods simply by boost = 200ish RWHP (assuming 10Psi x 20 RWHP per 1Lb of boost) and you will need meth to get to 10Psi by the way.

Grand total potentially= 471 RWHP (on a good day if your lucky and none of us with a V6 FI are making this consistently by the way).

Just by cave man math alone how do you expect to gain another 130 RWHP to meet your 600 HP goal? It is not possible. The FI boost level would need to be 15Psi+ to get where you want to be just to barely get to 600 HP assuming fueling/tune is not an issue.

Since you are rolling in the dough and have plenty of cars to drive just buy a SS and put $20K into it and make 800 HP+. I know it would be very nice to say you are the first V6 to make XXX amount of HP. But a reality check would be the Jay Leno car and we all know round about how much that guy makes ($180 Mil net worth and $30 Mil annual salary). His car is clocked at 420 HP and is a Twin Turbo built by GM.

http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/cars/c...ml#item=223986

I would love to see you get there and think it is a interesting idea but in all reality you are barking up the wrong tree and your resources are better utilized to invest in a SS/Zl1 to get the HP gains you seek.
GMs project Leno car was far from the best performing Forced induction V6. GM could make a monster V6 if they wanted to do something fun for the hell of it. That thing was 420 crank HP....not 420 at the wheels.

I just think using the Leno car as a benchmark is not a good comparison.
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Old 02-17-2013, 11:36 AM   #30
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KM is coorect. The Leno car was just a mockup running w/no proper tune to begin with for the first year plus until the GM Performance engineers got it sorted out. At the time it was pretty impressive, but Gretchen and others (we have pushed to just under 700 hp at 15-16# of boost using C16 race fuel in a boost referenced meth injection kit, but hurt a few pistons doing so (all stock bottom end!) and that is not safe or practical.

What were waiting for is someone that wants to see just what we can do and build it all forged with our standalone fuel system on top of the DI OEM one that uses 6 conventional injectors spraying into each intake port from the plenum and additonal controller system. That will give us all the fuel and tune we need, just not cheap by any means right now.

Remeber, just 8-10 years ago we had the ecotech 4cyl making 900-1000 hp with huge boost...

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Old 02-17-2013, 07:52 PM   #31
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Gents,

By no means I am trying to state that Mr. Lenos car should be the benchmark. I am simply stating that a person, like Mr. Leno, that has almost unlimited financial resources and was able to achieve/spend to get 420HP. Whether at the crank or at the weels 420HP is where the GM design team got him safely after a year in development and testing.

Sure GM could make a crazy V6 but as their design/engineering probably found out that is wasn't economical, even for them. Also, I do really appreciate various speed shops worldwide comming up with new and innovative procts for the V6's. But...

Trying to give some sound financial advice to a young man (OP) who sounds like he is just starting out regardless of his financial standing. Sure if he wants to spend $15K-$20K to get a V6 to 600HP, I think that is great and I would love to see it! But to be honest putting up that kind of money to get that kind of horespower (600+) out of a LLT/LFX is much better served to buy an SS/Zl1.

It all comes down to how much horsepower per $XXXXX.00 dollars is anyone willing to spend. How far down the Rabbit hole are you willing to go, you may find it is much deeper than you thought!
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Old 02-17-2013, 08:25 PM   #32
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I'm not sure we will ever get much detail from the Leno build, but from what I read and what I saw on Leno's garage it didn't seem like he was trying to go big. He wanted V8 power from a TTV6. 420 HP puts him between the L99 and LS3, so that met his goals.

I can say this, the internals of the LLT and LFX are very similar. They can take a lot more that 420 BHP without an issue...but the tune needs to be good. We've already seen several builds of 420 BHP (~335-360 WHP) without an issue. Now 600 BHP is a different story. If you start with a LS and add $15K to it then you are in the upper $30K range in total outlay. I'm not sure you will get 600 BHP out of a LS3 or L99 with a total outlay of less than $40K. If done right, a 600 BHP SS or V6 should be fine. Experience tells me we need better tuning options for the LLT, though.
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Old 02-17-2013, 09:47 PM   #33
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I'm not sure we will ever get much detail from the Leno build, but from what I read and what I saw on Leno's garage it didn't seem like he was trying to go big. He wanted V8 power from a TTV6. 420 HP puts him between the L99 and LS3, so that met his goals.

I can say this, the internals of the LLT and LFX are very similar. They can take a lot more that 420 BHP without an issue...but the tune needs to be good. We've already seen several builds of 420 BHP (~335-360 WHP) without an issue. Now 600 BHP is a different story. If you start with a LS and add $15K to it then you are in the upper $30K range in total outlay. I'm not sure you will get 600 BHP out of a LS3 or L99 with a total outlay of less than $40K. If done right, a 600 BHP SS or V6 should be fine. Experience tells me we need better tuning options for the LLT, though.
Gretchen,

Could not agree with you more and you having a TT build can definitley shed some light on all the metrics to accrue HP. I love math as it has zero feelings or emotions involved as it simply provides measuarble data. More caveman math...

- Standard price of a LS divided by stock dyno results ($23,500.00/251RWHP= $93.63 per 1 HP unit).

- 600 RWHP minus 251 RWHP = 349 RWHP difference.

- To get the additional 349 RWHP x $93.63= $32,676.87 is what it could cost, technically.

- So $23,500.00 + $32,676.87 = $56,176.87 total just to maybe get 600 RWHP.

-Base price of a 2013 SS= $32,635. 00
-Base price of a 2013 Zl1= $61,745.00

The numbers above obviously can't take in everthing to account and I used my local zip code to find prices but what it does show what it will round about cost to get to 600 fairly. Also the numbers assume you paid in full for your vehicle and doesnt take into account finance/interest charges whatsoever.

Last edited by elsololobo02; 02-17-2013 at 09:58 PM.
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Old 02-17-2013, 10:02 PM   #34
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Gretchen,

Could not agree with you more and you having a TT build can definitley shed some light on all the metrics to accrue HP. I love math as it has zero feelings, emotions involved as it simply provides measuarble data. More caveman math...

- Standard price of a LS divided by stock dyno results ($23,500.00/251RWHP= $93.63 per 1 HP unit).

- 251 HP minus 600 RWHP = 349 RWHP difference.

- To get the additional 349 RWHP x $93.63= $32,676.87 is what it could cost.

- So $23,500.00 + $32676.87 = $56,176.87 total just to maybe get 600 RWHP.

-Base price of a 2013 SS= $32,635. 00
-Base price of a 2013 Zl1= $61,745.00

The numbers above obviously can't take in everthing to account and I used my local zip code to find prices but what it does show what it will round about cost to get to 600 fairly. Also the numbers asuume you paid in full for your vehicle and doesnt take into account finance charges whatsoever.
But neither the SS or ZL1 have 600 RWHP. You can do the math another way.

1LS = 323 BHP for $23,500 or $73/BHP
1SS = 426 BHP (assume you used LS3) for $32,635 or $77/BHP
ZL1 = 560 BHP for $61,745 or $110/BHP

So, it is cheaper to get HP with the 1LS??? Not really because there is the base price of the car and then there is the cost of the power. Take my build for example. I think I'm at about $47K right now and 625 BHP. So it is costing me $75/BHP. That includes the suspension upgrades, wheels/tires and a lot of custom built stuff that will be cheaper for others now that we have built the first one. So, I'm adding power at about the same cost per BHP as the car came with. My next bump in power will come at a cost of a lot less than $75/BHP. Guestion is, what does it take to add 173 BHP to a SS or 40 BHP to a ZL1. Doesn't seem like it could be cheap enough to get the $/BHP ratio down to $75/BHP. Maybe you can and maybe you can't. I'm just saying it isn't as clear cut as some think.
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