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Old 02-17-2013, 10:54 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by GretchenGotGrowl View Post
But neither the SS or ZL1 have 600 RWHP. You can do the math another way.

1LS = 323 BHP for $23,500 or $73/BHP
1SS = 426 BHP (assume you used LS3) for $32,635 or $77/BHP
ZL1 = 560 BHP for $61,745 or $110/BHP

So, it is cheaper to get HP with the 1LS??? Not really because there is the base price of the car and then there is the cost of the power. Take my build for example. I think I'm at about $47K right now and 625 BHP. So it is costing me $75/BHP. That includes the suspension upgrades, wheels/tires and a lot of custom built stuff that will be cheaper for others now that we have built the first one. So, I'm adding power at about the same cost per BHP as the car came with. My next bump in power will come at a cost of a lot less than $75/BHP. Guestion is, what does it take to add 173 BHP to a SS or 40 BHP to a ZL1. Doesn't seem like it could be cheap enough to get the $/BHP ratio down to $75/BHP. Maybe you can and maybe you can't. I'm just saying it isn't as clear cut as some think.
625....I can't wait for mine

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Old 02-17-2013, 11:19 PM   #36
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All these numbers lol.

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Old 02-17-2013, 11:24 PM   #37
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Again, agree with you completely. Data input is what it is but I do feel the numbers define a fairly accurate baseline. Again the metrics don't take every aspect into account. The basline data here is the 2013 LS. Understand that the SS nor the Zl1 have stock 600 Bhp and they probably never will, at stock. The cost comparison was soley based on overall dealership prices/ total price by 1 HP unit. Which in general is a fair metric.

What the numbers really can't/don't account for is reliability/predicatability. Most of all math can reach the same conclusions through 3-4 different ways of calculating. You use Bhp (no parasitic loss) in your calcs and in all reality it is RWHP is the power actually making it to the wheels. The average percentage used is 15% on a manual and 20% on a auto for loss through the drivetrain. Loss between the crankshaft and the entire drivetrain to include gearing, condition of lubricants, mass of rotating parts, manual or automatic transmission, generator, water pump and other auxiliaries are to be included.

I do know for $32K I can own a SS that I can run hard and it will be reliable as for $23K a V6 will do the same. And I can up the HP well beyond what any V6 is capable of at a resonable price/HP price point. Heck there are some V8 SS guys making 1000+ and there is no V6 Camaro making numbers anywhere near that. I know that is the extreme but for good price point data go here... http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38022


Not trying to get into a pissing match as I too also own a FI V6, but at the end of the day the V8 will make more HP than a V6, in the end. X/Y/Z diagrams can show exactly where the equallibrium point is and how much it will cost. I think the numbers I have posted and you have posted pretty much show that a person will spend $23K on top of a base LS to get where you are at...532RWHP ish. But how reliable is that number going to be?? Most V6 people getting above 440RWHP ish are melting pistons, blowing gaskets among other things.

My hat is truly off to you! I hope you find solutions to you limitations and are able to reach the 600HP mark whether it be at the crank or the wheels! Simply just trying to help out a 20 year old kid (OP) that got some sort of inheritance to invest his money, if he decides to go down the modding path to get the most out of his money and be reliable.

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Old 02-18-2013, 12:06 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by elsololobo02 View Post

Not trying to get into a pissing match as I too also own a FI V6, but at the end of the day the V8 will make more HP than a V6, in the end. X/Y/Z diagrams can show exactly where the equallibrium point is and how much it will cost. I think the numbers I have posted and you have posted pretty much show that a person will spend $23K on top of a base LS to get where you are at...532RWHP ish. But how reliable is that number going to be?? Most V6 people getting above 440RWHP ish are melting pistons, blowing gaskets among other things.

My hat is truly off to you! I hope you find solutions to you limitations and are able to reach the 600HP mark whether it be at the crank or the wheels! Simply just trying to help out a 20 year old kid that got some sort of inheritance to invest his money, if he decides to go down the modding path to get the most out of his money and be reliable.
Really not that the pistons or the gaskets can't handle the power. It's the tuning/fuel issues causing these problems. For me to get the tune needed to get my power I sacrificed 2 pistons. If the tuning and fuel weren't a problem who knows what they could actually handle. I want to replace my pistons with OEM ones again and run my Meth kit as I did the last dyno run on 93. The meth kit worked great when I was first pushing 11-12psi's, kept my engine from leaning out and exploding lol. A progressive meth kit works wonders when programed properly when running out of fuel. I will also be running Torco to make race fuel while also reducing knock hopefully. The LLT could of been great if GM didn't screw us with this ECU.
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Old 02-18-2013, 12:13 AM   #39
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Really not that the pistons or the gaskets can't handle the power. It's the tuning/fuel issues causing these problems. For me to get the tune needed to get my power I sacrificed 2 pistons. If the tuning and fuel weren't a problem who knows what they could actually handle. I want to replace my pistons with OEM ones again and run my Meth kit as I did the last dyno run on 93. The meth kit worked great when I was first pushing 11-12psi's, kept my engine from leaning out and exploding lol. A progressive meth kit works wonders when programed properly when running out of fuel. I will also be running Torco to make race fuel while also reducing knock hopefully. The LLT could of been great if GM didn't screw us with this ECU.
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Old 02-18-2013, 01:43 AM   #40
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Ryan2011RS,

There you have it, 2 x pistons sacrificed because the ECU/ tune was pushed beyond its limits. I really do hope for all the FI V6ers the ECU can be cracked/tuned to full potential. Just do your research and use common sense. Plan on spending at least $23-$30K to get to the 500HP ranks with internals, suspension, drivetrain, tune, clutch, meth, gauges, labor etc.

Simply just getting info out there so people don't make the same costly mistakes. Maybe somone out there knows the people that designed/wrote the code on the ECU from GM that can provide some sort of info/feedback.

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Old 02-18-2013, 07:31 AM   #41
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Don't forget the INSANE amount of money we save on insurance and gas, guys.


At least that's what I keep telling myself
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Old 02-18-2013, 09:23 AM   #42
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if money was not a option just move the injectors on the IM intead of the combustion chamber? Was this ever thought of or ever tested?
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Old 02-18-2013, 09:52 AM   #43
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if money was not a option just move the injectors on the IM intead of the combustion chamber? Was this ever thought of or ever tested?
Can't move the injectors we have because they are specifically designed for in-cylinder injection. However, adding additional port injection has been talked about and that is what we are working on for my car.
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Old 02-18-2013, 10:04 AM   #44
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Don't forget the INSANE amount of money we save on insurance and gas, guys.


At least that's what I keep telling myself
Yeah but when you're moding heavily you pretty much have to use 93 octane or whatever the highest is in your area.

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Old 02-18-2013, 10:37 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by elsololobo02 View Post
Ryan2011RS,

There you have it, 2 x pistons sacrificed because the ECU/ tune was pushed beyond its limits. I really do hope for all the FI V6ers the ECU can be cracked/tuned to full potential. Just do your research and use common sense. Plan on spending at least $23-$30K to get to the 500HP ranks with internals, suspension, drivetrain, tune, clutch, meth, gauges, labor etc.

Simply just getting info out there so people don't make the same costly mistakes. Maybe somone out there knows the people that designed/wrote the code on the ECU from GM that can provide some sort of info/feedback.
Tuning is only a problem because of the ECU. I knew I was going to have to lean out a few times to get things right. So I did. Gotta pay to play is the saying. Can no one start modding these cars without some where down the road something going wrong. I also only spent $7k to get my power levels. Gretchen hit 500hp in the LLT before also. My next attempt will be using race fuel and Methanol to see how things go. More fuel (meth) and race full sounds good on paper lol. But we will see.

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Old 02-18-2013, 11:32 AM   #46
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Great disscussion elsolo & gretch & ls & cant see me......nice to see knowledgable data and actual brains working here!
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Old 02-18-2013, 11:41 AM   #47
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Im reading and learning with nothing to say. Wishing I knew more so that I could provide some input, but I have none :(

sorry guys
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Old 02-18-2013, 12:58 PM   #48
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Ryan2011RS,

There you have it, 2 x pistons sacrificed because the ECU/ tune was pushed beyond its limits. I really do hope for all the FI V6ers the ECU can be cracked/tuned to full potential. Just do your research and use common sense. Plan on spending at least $23-$30K to get to the 500HP ranks with internals, suspension, drivetrain, tune, clutch, meth, gauges, labor etc.

Simply just getting info out there so people don't make the same costly mistakes. Maybe somone out there knows the people that designed/wrote the code on the ECU from GM that can provide some sort of info/feedback.
ECU/tune was not pushed to its limits. A more correct statement would be to say that the tune wasn't 100% perfect, as we have never had a great tuning option for high HP applications on the LLT engine in the Camaro. I'd love to see IPF take a crack at it, but so far they are only doing their SC kits (which by the way are pushing around 480+ HP at the crank when paired with headers).

I have to say, you've been overly critical and bit of a downer when it comes to this topic, even as an FI V6 owner. I realize you are trying to help this guy out, but some of your statements have been a bit off.
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:41 AM   #49
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ECU/tune was not pushed to its limits. A more correct statement would be to say that the tune wasn't 100% perfect, as we have never had a great tuning option for high HP applications on the LLT engine in the Camaro. I'd love to see IPF take a crack at it, but so far they are only doing their SC kits (which by the way are pushing around 480+ HP at the crank when paired with headers).

I have to say, you've been overly critical and bit of a downer when it comes to this topic, even as an FI V6 owner. I realize you are trying to help this guy out, but some of your statements have been a bit off.

So since I am being overly critical and a bit of a downer. Would you reccomend to the OP ,who is 19 years old, to spend $23K-$35K of his inhertitance money to attempt to try to get a V6 to attain 600 RW or Bhp?
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:44 AM   #50
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^ No save it. Put a little at a time in your car and enjoy it.


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Old 02-19-2013, 12:47 AM   #51
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^ No save it. Put a little at a time in your car and enjoy it.


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