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Old 02-04-2008, 07:42 AM   #1
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Hybrid Camaro, new fuel economy rules = way higher price?

This is VERY disturbing to me...

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/02/04/d...brid-pony-car/


Quote:
Buried at the end of an article from The Car Connection that discusses the future of General Motors' rear-wheel-drive expansion (or lack thereof) was an interesting canard. In an effort to lower the General's CAFE rating, GM has supposedly assembled a team to outfit the new Camaro with the automaker's dual-mode hybrid drivetrain. The rational behind outfitting a Camaro with a hybrid system might be sound from a fuel-economy standpoint, but offering a fuel-sipping pony car seems like the antithesis of what a muscle-bound coupe is all about.

The article goes on to say that our new CAFE standards have all but killed GM's planned RWD cars, and because the platform underpinning the Camaro was supposed to be utilized on these other vehicles, its costs can't be kept in check. That's likely going to cause the V8 Camaro's sticker to be higher than anticipated -- possibly encroaching on Corvette territory.

Both the Camaro and the Pontiac G8 will live on, but everything else is likely off the table. Rear-wheel-drive Chevys and Buicks are dead in the water, but Cadillac will soldier on with a RWD vehicle to compete in the ultra-luxury segment.

GM, no matter how much we love the Camaro if it's anywhere near the Vette in price you will all but have created a failure...another Camaro destined to be killed off.

"IF", this where to happen it would be a huge mistake and it makes me remember another thread asking "what other cars would you consider other than the Camaro" or the thread about what could keep you away from the Camaro.

THIS, would all but kill the Camaro idea for me. A Camaro should NEVER be anywhere near the Vette in price.

I think GM is smarter than that so I'm not going to worry "too much" but this is disappointing to say the least.
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Old 02-04-2008, 08:39 AM   #2
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The idea from the beginning was that they would build mutliple vehicles off the Zeta chassis to keep the cost of the Camaro competitive with the Mustang and have production numbers in the 100,000 to 150,000 a year range. But if they kill the other proposed RWD Zeta cars, Camaros will be very expensive, low production, and very short lived. If the price gets up in 'vette territory, I say F*&^ the Camaro! I'll get something else like a Subaru STI or a Mustang.
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Old 02-04-2008, 09:29 AM   #3
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F**k CAFE is all I say
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Old 02-04-2008, 09:37 AM   #4
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I am not familiar with the other vehicles that were going to share this platform, however, I'll agree that if the price isn't competitive than I think it will flop. I always thought the idea of the Camaro was it was "the poor mans Corvette," and if they have to price it close to the 'Vette, that is going to be a bad idea.

Good job government...
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Old 02-04-2008, 09:37 AM   #5
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Chevrolet will always offer a Camaro priced within the grasp of the "average Joe/Susan". And from what I've heard, even the V6 will be very impressive.

That being said, there will also always be a market for the enthusiast who wants "near Vette level performance" in a Camaro, and I believe there will be a new Camaro for that person as well.

The Camaro will never be priced near the Corvette, (the exception being those limited, special run models by dealers, etc.) and will always be attainable and therefore enjoy a long life.
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Old 02-04-2008, 09:37 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emher View Post
F**k CAFE is all I say

+1

(I must've been typing while this post popped up)
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Old 02-04-2008, 10:04 AM   #7
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Moose, I don't want near Corvette performance in my Camaro I just want a V8. I could be happy with a V6, but I want the sound and feel of a V8. My goal with this car is to have that ONE car that will always be "mine", the car of my youth (in case i can't keep it), and I want that car to have a V8 because I want a kickass new American car with a V8 before they dissappear from the grasp of the everyman. Unlike many others I know in my age I don't have illusions that I'll someday be a millionare. I just want ONE good car, ONE nice house, ONE wife and family and so on. I've had it rough at times in my life and I'm not expecting the other stuff to come true anytime soon so I just...I just want the car. Please can't I just get the f***ing car......?
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Old 02-04-2008, 10:14 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emher View Post
Moose, I don't want near Corvette performance in my Camaro I just want a V8. I could be happy with a V6, but I want the sound and feel of a V8. My goal with this car is to have that ONE car that will always be "mine", the car of my youth (in case i can't keep it), and I want that car to have a V8 because I want a kickass new American car with a V8 before they dissappear from the grasp of the everyman. Unlike many others I know in my age I don't have illusions that I'll someday be a millionare. I just want ONE good car, ONE nice house, ONE wife and family and so on. I've had it rough at times in my life and I'm not expecting the other stuff to come true anytime soon so I just...I just want the car. Please can't I just get the f***ing car......?

Well, if you want the kickass V8 with the V8 sound and feel, there are other options. The Dodge Challenger is built off the same chassis as the 300 and Charger, and will have two V8s and a V6, which should make it affordable in the long run. And of course, there is the Mustang, which we all know is very affordable. So if you want a V8, you don't have to just look at GM and the Camaro.

Interestingly, Chrysler gets penalized for CAFE fines every year and pays it and doesn't care, just like Mercedes and BMW. GM is a big company with lots of money. Why not just pay the fine like Chrysler does? Will it really affect their bottom line that much? If they sell in high volume and beat the competition in sales, wouldn't paying the CAFE fine still be worth it?
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Old 02-04-2008, 10:25 AM   #9
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Quote:
Moose, I don't want near Corvette performance in my Camaro I just want a V8. I could be happy with a V6, but I want the sound and feel of a V8. My goal with this car is to have that ONE car that will always be "mine", the car of my youth (in case i can't keep it), and I want that car to have a V8 because I want a kickass new American car with a V8 before they dissappear from the grasp of the everyman.
LOL, I'm very like you when it comes to the Camaro. I just want a 25-27K (tops) V8 American sports car before they vanish (again, they have been saying that for a long time). If I can't have the V8 in the new Camaro, then honestly (while it still looks great) I wont be getting it.

With that said, I tend to agree with Moose that GM would be STUPID to price this thing higher than the Mustang GT (for a normal V8 Camaro...let's say Z28) and have faith they will keep it priced where we ALL want it.

I'm slowly becoming the alarmist on this forum...LOL, I don't mean to guys but I just wanted to report what was reported. Maybe the GM folks will give us some "calming" information.
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Old 02-04-2008, 10:26 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rray200 View Post
Well, if you want the kickass V8 with the V8 sound and feel, there are other options. The Dodge Challenger is built off the same chassis as the 300 and Charger, and will have two V8s and a V6, which should make it affordable in the long run. And of course, there is the Mustang, which we all know is very affordable. So if you want a V8, you don't have to just look at GM and the Camaro.

Interestingly, Chrysler gets penalized for CAFE fines every year and pays it and doesn't care, just like Mercedes and BMW. GM is a big company with lots of money. Why not just pay the fine like Chrysler does? Will it really affect their bottom line that much? If they sell in high volume and beat the competition in sales, wouldn't paying the CAFE fine still be worth it?
^Even if I could ge over my Ford hate, the Mustang is still an import here, same with the Challenger, so prizes go up by quite a bit, even more so with the Challenger that is expensive to start with. The Camaro has been comfirmed to be going on sale as a regular Chevrolet model here which does a lot for the prize but I fear that this would dric it up into Challenger range here.

Plus it's like...imagine you've started to get to know a girl. You like everything about her, both what's on the inside and what's on the outside. Soon you've fallen in love with her and it seems perfect. But somebody comes along and for whatever reason you can't have her. You would be heartbroken. That's perhaps a bit extreme a comparison, but that's how I would feel if the car ends up too expensive for me.


I know I'm freaking out a bit, but this car is really one of the very few things keeping me going right now and I just don't want it to slip from my grasp.
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Old 02-04-2008, 10:32 AM   #11
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^Me too, I'd be heartbroken also...but I think GM is smarter than that. I mean, make your FWD cars more fuel efficient all around and live with the two or three real sports cars you make. Oh, that's 4 with the Solstice.

So, increase the fuel economy across the range and leave your sports cars alive and well. Gosh, it's not like the Vette, projected Camaro, or Solstice are that bad with fuel economy considering their performance.

So again, I don't think GM (who has been doing a great job) would screw up the one car that EVERYONE is looking forward to. The business sense...is to make it affordable...
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Old 02-04-2008, 10:34 AM   #12
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The sky is falling.

Guys, if the mustang can continue (and it will) then the camaro and challenger wont be dead in the water.

Don't give in to the panic.
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Old 02-04-2008, 10:36 AM   #13
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^That's part of why this is making me mad: the Camaro will have the best fuel economy in it's class! It should be rewarded, not punished!
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Old 02-04-2008, 10:37 AM   #14
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Listen to diarmad, until it's official...don't freak out too much.
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Old 02-04-2008, 10:38 AM   #15
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*Sigh*



Sorry...I'm not very stabile right now.... -.-
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Old 02-04-2008, 10:38 AM   #16
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Panicing...
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Old 02-04-2008, 10:43 AM   #17
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You know, GM could make things a hell of alot easier for themselves if they got rid of a couple of those fat, big honking full sized SUVs from their lineup. Why not cancel the Yukon Denali or Tahoe? Getting rid of one of those big gas guzzlers would easily get them in line with the CAFE. It will cost people jobs. But at the end of the day, with $100 a barrel oil, the novelty of those guargantaun behemoths should wear off very quickly. Plus, modern muscle cars use alot less fuel and are much more enviromentally friendly than some big ass Escalade or Denali.
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Old 02-04-2008, 11:27 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rray200 View Post
You know, GM could make things a hell of alot easier for themselves if they got rid of a couple of those fat, big honking full sized SUVs from their lineup. Why not cancel the Yukon Denali or Tahoe? Getting rid of one of those big gas guzzlers would easily get them in line with the CAFE.
Apparently you haven't seen the Hybrid Tahoe, etc.?

IMO, GM is doing waaayyy more than the other manufacturer's to develop vehicle's that are more efficient and less dependent on fossil fuels.

Let's not "slam" GM. They should be applauded for what they are doing.
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Old 02-04-2008, 11:31 AM   #19
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I AM NOT READING THIS ENTIRE THREAD. I am getting tired of talking about the new Camaro being killed off w/ RWD.

If GM prices the Camaro in the same ball park as the Corvette....WE MIGHT AS WELL KISS OUR BELOVED CAMARO GOODBYE. It is that simple. It must compare w/ the Mustang or it will DIE.

HAVE FAITH!!!! It'll be prices w/ the Mustang!
That is all I'll ever say about that again.
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Old 02-04-2008, 11:34 AM   #20
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The other option is to tack on the CAFE penalty ($5.50/0.1 mpg below) to the consumers. Adding an extra $500 will pay for being about 9 mpg below the average. Thats not pocket change, but it is less than the cost of a hybrid system, and gives a bigger 'boost' to economy. I know some of you will hate that but if its the differance between having and not having a V8 as an option I will take it
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Old 02-04-2008, 11:37 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose View Post
Apparently you haven't seen the Hybrid Tahoe, etc.?

IMO, GM is doing waaayyy more than the other manufacturer's to develop vehicle's that are more efficient and less dependent on fossil fuels.

Let's not "slam" GM. They should be applauded for what they are doing.
I agree they are doing alot to develop more fuel efficient vehicles. But really, they still have way too many big trucks in their lineup (Suburban, Escalade, Denali, Hummer H1, H2, H3 etc.) that affect their CAFE numbers. Didn't Ford get rid of the Excursion? There is little room for these kinds of trucks in a market place where oil is $100+ a barrel. Just build a couple of them like everybody else does, instead of 10 different versions of the same thing and CAFE becomes a non-issue.
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Old 02-04-2008, 11:37 AM   #22
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I'm thinking that "IF" this story is believable, and I'm not saying that I do, but just as a fall back on "if" the goes high then what we're thinking, my fall back list is this:1) G8 Sport, 2) G8 ute (Forgot what the pickup version of it's called,3) Challenger and 4) Charger w/the Daytona option.
Now personally, I don't believe it. If they price the Camaro to high, it's gonna kill the car before it leaves the starting gate.
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Old 02-04-2008, 11:53 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rray200 View Post
You know, GM could make things a hell of alot easier for themselves if they got rid of a couple of those fat, big honking full sized SUVs from their lineup. Why not cancel the Yukon Denali or Tahoe? Getting rid of one of those big gas guzzlers would easily get them in line with the CAFE. It will cost people jobs. But at the end of the day, with $100 a barrel oil, the novelty of those guargantaun behemoths should wear off very quickly. Plus, modern muscle cars use alot less fuel and are much more enviromentally friendly than some big ass Escalade or Denali.
Well, there are reasons they don't get rid of them.

First, and foremost,....THEY SELL. Afterall, that's what GM's in business for....to sell vehicles. In order to do that, they have to build what people will buy.

People buy those SUV's that you (obviously) don't care about because they need them. As I've pointed out in other threads, we needed the bigger SUV's because of the 3 kids/car seats/etc. Other people have the family and a boat or a camper....sorry, but you aren't going to drag a trailer like that with your RSX (or any other fuel sipping economy car) and 3 car seats won't fit in there either.

So, GM then goes out and does something unheard of by the likes of Toyota and Honda. They build hybrids (no, not the answer, just a step in the right direction) out of the full-size SUV's and full-size trucks. Increase fuel economy in vehicles that people want...win-win...for GM and the consumers.

Actually, GM would be better off if they build more cars off of the more fuel efficient vehicles (Saturns, Cobalts, G6's,) and bring in those (as much as I don't like them) Ute's from Holden (more utility for people that need it, without the poorer fuel economy). That way, they have more of the fuel-sippers to average against the fuel-"guzzlers" and it will raise their numbers as needed.
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Old 02-04-2008, 11:59 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAG UR IT View Post
I AM NOT READING THIS ENTIRE THREAD. I am getting tired of talking about the new Camaro being killed off w/ RWD.

If GM prices the Camaro in the same ball park as the Corvette....WE MIGHT AS WELL KISS OUR BELOVED CAMARO GOODBYE. It is that simple. It must compare w/ the Mustang or it will DIE.

HAVE FAITH!!!! It'll be prices w/ the Mustang!
That is all I'll ever say about that again.
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Old 02-04-2008, 12:15 PM   #25
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Again, I agree with some of the folks and I just don't see GM making this stupid mistake. I'll take a $500 shot (which effects little in monthly payment) to keep the Camaro priced right (while that sounds to be counterproductive).

In the least, it wont kill it off while I doubt that will happen. People...this is the best thing to come out of GM Muscle for a long time and I doubt they would mess it up before the car is even built.
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