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Tuning / Diagnostics -- engine and transmission Tune and diagnostics for engines and auto transmission.

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Old 02-13-2013, 09:26 PM   #1
KMPrenger


 
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Tune better after initial flash, than after in use for awhile??

I'm really just wanting to put something to bed here, and so hoping to draw on the intelligence of the tuning community. I do not believe in one a way or the other (although I am leaning one way lol)

Some in the V6 community here are saying that a tune seems to always perform best directly after the initial flash into the system.

For example. You flash a car from one tune you've been running awhile (not stock) to another tune in a sort of comparison test. Some are saying this is not a fair test, as the new tune will work better after the initial flash, and thus look like the superior tune, when instead, over time the tune may "settle" and may not return the same results.

To me, once a tune is loaded...if anything it should work as good or better after running it for awhile. But you guys tell me. Which way is it?
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Old 02-13-2013, 09:58 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KMPrenger View Post
I'm really just wanting to put something to bed here, and so hoping to draw on the intelligence of the tuning community. I do not believe in one a way or the other (although I am leaning one way lol)

Some in the V6 community here are saying that a tune seems to always perform best directly after the initial flash into the system.

For example. You flash a car from one tune you've been running awhile (not stock) to another tune in a sort of comparison test. Some are saying this is not a fair test, as the new tune will work better after the initial flash, and thus look like the superior tune, when instead, over time the tune may "settle" and may not return the same results.

To me, once a tune is loaded...if anything it should work as good or better after running it for awhile. But you guys tell me. Which way is it?
Let me see if I can explain this without going into calibration mumbo-jumbo lol..

It can re-learn the LTrims/STrims over the course of a new tune being put in, also Idle LTIT and follower too. However, as far as WOT, etc. that has no "re-learn" process to it. And really its not "relearning", by putting the tune in you just isolated some modules and reset others, including all fuel trims, etc. which it takes a bit of time to re-average, etc. Compiling the new averages of LTrims/STrims/LTIT/STIT's can take a little bit of time.

The TCM can also be affected when tuned too. I find that some cars I may need to do a fast trans adapt relearn on when making trans changes, and others I may not have to.

Another instance people have asked me about; If you use any of the tuning suites, you'll even notice on some of the newer Camaro's that they do not like to start up nice and may need some help idling after installing a file. That is because they do not use the same boot loaders as GM, thus some of the modules are affected after writing a tune. At times I may have to keep a car idling, and drive away (Or drive on dyno) for half a minute just to get everything happy again.


So to wrap this up. YES there is a "learn" time due to trims and emissions systems, the trims can affect idle and part throttle driving. This is the beauty of these new ECU systems they are all adaptive. The emissions part is just for the readiness monitors to pass their tests and drive cycle. Also remember even without changing the tune, disconnecting battery, "all the tricks" your computer is constantly relearning values as you drive, it's a law of averages but the computer will always put you back to commanded stoich IF all the parameters are copacetic in the computer (i.e. no one turned off the LTrims or Closed Loop, etc.)
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:03 PM   #3
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Once your calibration is uploaded to your ECM, its there to stay. Like anyother computer, it can have data written over it time and time again.

The "learn factor" of a vehicle is its adjusting the sensors to hit your configuration and stay there. Its not going to fall off and learn anything new on its own. If you change parts, your tune will be off. If you add a cam to the vehicle, the computer is not going to learn how to adjust fueling. Thats why it runs so crappy until the retune because it will strive to hit the numbers of the old calibration.
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:05 PM   #4
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Once your calibration is uploaded to your ECM, its there to stay. Like anyother computer, it can have data written over it time and time again.

The "learn factor" of a vehicle is its adjusting the sensors to hit your configuration and stay there. Its not going to fall off and learn anything new on its own. .
Well said Phil!!!

Quote:
If you change parts, your tune will be off. If you add a cam to the vehicle, the computer is not going to learn how to adjust fueling. Thats why it runs so crappy until the retune because it will strive to hit the numbers of the old calibration
This is what Phil and I like to call job security
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:18 PM   #5
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Thanks guys!

I understand the part about LTFTs and such, as it is something that I monitor on my car...mostly after installing some of my bolt ons. I do understand that the ECM will constantly recalibrate based on the conditions.

But it sounds to me....under WOT conditions, that flashing a new tune in, versus going WOT on an old tune is a valid comparison. Correct?
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:47 PM   #6
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But it sounds to me....under WOT conditions, that flashing a new tune in, versus going WOT on an old tune is a valid comparison. Correct?

100%.
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Old 02-14-2013, 03:57 AM   #7
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This is what Phil and I like to call job security
For sure. Even though we both tell our clients to set the car up the way you want it the first time so they dont have to return and pay for a retune, about 1/4 dont listen and return. Dont get us wrong guys we're not going to chase you away, but we'd also like to save you a buck up front and still have the same end goal.

Ill admit it, I was that 1/4 percent................a couple times

To main factors the vehicles try to learn/adapt. The fuel trims are constantly adding and subtracting fuel for the perfect 14.68 AFR
( or whatever you set it for). Its not going to go off the island and start staying, tomorrow I want my fuel trims to be 16.68. It might happen because you changed a part, but it wont do it on its own.

Transmissions: Sometimes the A6 transmissions take a key cycle or two to shift how you configure them. Lets say you make your changes and take it out for a run and you flared a little in 3rd gear. Before you add more to the offsets or add more pressure, shut it off, let the computer reset, and take it for another drive.

I dont sense it while im dyno tuning because its hard to get a feel of the shifts on the dyno because we are cycling key on/ key off a dozen times before we hit the street uploading tunes, but if I straight street tune a car, I give the transmission more time to learn/adapt to my configuration.


Why am I up at 4:30a .
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Old 02-14-2013, 09:46 AM   #8
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Good Information!

Thanks KMPrenger for starting it.

Hey maybe help me for the wavy Dyno graph some get on these V6's and others dont even with the same tunes.
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...46#post6159446

Last edited by KalCorp; 02-14-2013 at 09:59 AM.
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Old 02-14-2013, 09:54 AM   #9
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Ok, I got all that information and it's what I had been told about tunes, that partial throttle may have some learning but not at WOT. More out of idle curiosity can someone explain to me why after flashing my car to tuned or stock it makes a loud grumble under partial throttle but no real movement upon driving it the first time. This only happens in that period of time where the engine is still running a higher RPM to heat up, and it only happens the first time after a flash. I hope I said that well.
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:30 AM   #10
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Personally, I think the real test would be to make some runs at the track (1/4 mile). Making a few passes with the Trifecta tune and get some real track times. Then remove that tune (while at the track), install the IPF tune and repeat. Finally remove the IPF tune, reinstall the Trifecta tune and do the testing one more time.

Dyno numbers are nice for bench racing and bragging rights.

Taking it to the track is what everyone wants to know.

The only way I see this getting settled is run them on the same Camaro (doesn’t matter stock, or not) on the same day under the same conditions.
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