Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
PFYC
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Engine | Drivetrain | Powertrain Technical Discussions > Camaro V8 LS3 / L99 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons

Camaro V8 LS3 / L99 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons Bolt-Ons | Intakes | Exhaust

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 02-17-2013, 08:09 PM   #1
San2cci
 
San2cci's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 L99 2SS (25k miles)
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Camden County, NJ
Posts: 688
Ported Throttle Body

I installed my ported throttle body; Is it possible for that to help avoid the AFM kicking in because it is a lot better than it was when I had my unported throttle on. Also, it seems much more responsive/faster. Would the 10+ HP help that much? (also have a CAI + removed my mufflers)
San2cci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 08:45 PM   #2
rberns


 
rberns's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 Camaro 2SS/RS
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Posts: 2,706
Quote:
Originally Posted by San2cci View Post
I installed my ported throttle body; Is it possible for that to help avoid the AFM kicking in because it is a lot better than it was when I had my unported throttle on. Also, it seems much more responsive/faster. Would the 10+ HP help that much? (also have a CAI + removed my mufflers)
Ported TB will not help in avoiding AFM from kicking in. A ported TB may get you 2 to 4 hp at max (debatelable). A ported TB is only going to give you better throttle response. Thats it. It wont give you any ponies or mitigate AFM from kicking in.

If you want to get rid of AFM you will be looking at getting a tune...which means voided warranty.
__________________
2011 Camaro 2SS/RS, Circle D 3200, ADM Transmission Cooler, BTR Valve Train, Cam Motion custom grind, ARH 1 7/8, Cold Air Inductions, Katech C5R TC, Melling HV, BTR SLR lifters, LS2 Dampner, Trunion upgrade, LS9 head gaskets, RX CC, GFX, Subs.
rberns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 09:54 PM   #3
shrinkdoc

 
Drives: SRT Yugo GT Super Sport with Manual
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: va
Posts: 1,386
Quote:
Originally Posted by rberns View Post
Ported TB will not help in avoiding AFM from kicking in. A ported TB may get you 2 to 4 hp at max (debatelable). A ported TB is only going to give you better throttle response. Thats it. It wont give you any ponies or mitigate AFM from kicking in.

If you want to get rid of AFM you will be looking at getting a tune...which means voided warranty.
Should be getting about 8-10 hp with the PTB.
shrinkdoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 10:12 PM   #4
axis
Search Ninja
 
axis's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Black 2SS/RS A6
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Central Ark
Posts: 7,184
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrinkdoc View Post
Should be getting about 8-10 hp with the PTB.
Says who?

You do realize that NONE of the ported TB's actually increase the size of the throat. They merely clean up the mouth. The CNC one does make pretty swirls all over the mouth which is suppose to help with throttle response.
__________________
2010 Black 2SS/RS A6
Halltech CF 102 fed
GPI modded intake manifold
Bo (knows) White ported TB
Kooks LT's/ Dynomax VT
Pfadted (springs/sways)
Dyno tuned by Rhino and GPI

I once parallel parked a train.
axis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-17-2013, 10:16 PM   #5
RubyCamaro
SSlayer
 
RubyCamaro's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 Camaro 1LT Red Jewel tintcoat
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Springfield, TN
Posts: 12,889
All I know is, I could really feel a big difference in my butt dyno. My permagrin was much bigger. Who cares to argue the stats when you have that?
__________________
RubyCamaro is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 04:49 AM   #6
CRTZL1

 
CRTZL1's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 CRT ZL1
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 1,356
Just installed mine very recently but haven't tested it yet... it's still sleeping for the winter unfortunately... but can't wait to feel the difference in throttle response like everyone says anyways..
CRTZL1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 10:02 AM   #7
Abomb1223

 
Abomb1223's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 Camaro
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Ohio
Posts: 800
Quote:
Originally Posted by rberns View Post
Ported TB will not help in avoiding AFM from kicking in. A ported TB may get you 2 to 4 hp at max (debatelable). A ported TB is only going to give you better throttle response. Thats it. It wont give you any ponies or mitigate AFM from kicking in.

If you want to get rid of AFM you will be looking at getting a tune...which means voided warranty.
I thought 2011 and below have the ability to flash the tune back to normal bc the technology is not on the 10s and 11s to see of if was tuned. So he may be ok!
Abomb1223 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 02:24 PM   #8
San2cci
 
San2cci's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 L99 2SS (25k miles)
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Camden County, NJ
Posts: 688
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abomb1223 View Post
I thought 2011 and below have the ability to flash the tune back to normal bc the technology is not on the 10s and 11s to see of if was tuned. So he may be ok!
That would be awesome!!! can someone verify this?
San2cci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 02:27 PM   #9
nyrfan
Let's go Rangers!
 
nyrfan's Avatar
 
Drives: 13' AGM 2SS/RS L99
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 9,598
Quote:
Originally Posted by San2cci View Post
That would be awesome!!! can someone verify this?
Not true, can be found on snoopes.com.

But in all seriousness, not true on the SS. Only the V6 (which the poster has and does not have AFM) does not have a flash counter. So yes it can be flashed back but it will still be detected.
__________________
Soprano 4/1/00-6/14/11, Gone but NEVER forgotten!
FSP tuned: 377/389
nyrfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 04:17 PM   #10
San2cci
 
San2cci's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 L99 2SS (25k miles)
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Camden County, NJ
Posts: 688
Damn; what other bolt ons can I do that wont void warranty? I have muffler delete, cold air intake, and ported throttle body.
San2cci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-18-2013, 06:26 PM   #11
CRTZL1

 
CRTZL1's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 CRT ZL1
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: N.Y.
Posts: 1,356
Quote:
Originally Posted by San2cci View Post
Damn; what other bolt ons can I do that wont void warranty? I have muffler delete, cold air intake, and ported throttle body.
You mys well do tune and headers and forget about the warranty.. even now with the few bolts ons you have done if they find a problem and they say it's related to your cold air intake or throttle body ,then your warranty won't work anyways...
Honestly the warranty is over rated , you'll never use the powertrain warranty anyways.....
CRTZL1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2013, 11:33 PM   #12
Rocco70
 
Rocco70's Avatar
 
Drives: 2SS RS
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: chicago
Posts: 29
Im not sure why everyone is so worried about the warrenty i have my car tuned. I bring mine in to the dealer tuned and they know its tuned and can care less. I guess its all about the dealer most dealer should under stand we buy these cars to mod.
Rocco70 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2013, 12:42 AM   #13
rberns


 
rberns's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 Camaro 2SS/RS
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Posts: 2,706
Quote:
Originally Posted by nyrfan View Post
Not true, can be found on snoopes.com.

But in all seriousness, not true on the SS. Only the V6 (which the poster has and does not have AFM) does not have a flash counter. So yes it can be flashed back but it will still be detected.
Below his avatar he states that he has a L99. Therefore, he would have AFM.

Once you get a tune you void warranty. Yes, you can bring it back to stock, but the dealership will still be able to see this information and know that you have tuned your vehicle. So basically, if you are not ready to void your powertrain warranty then don't tune because you won't be getting around it.
__________________
2011 Camaro 2SS/RS, Circle D 3200, ADM Transmission Cooler, BTR Valve Train, Cam Motion custom grind, ARH 1 7/8, Cold Air Inductions, Katech C5R TC, Melling HV, BTR SLR lifters, LS2 Dampner, Trunion upgrade, LS9 head gaskets, RX CC, GFX, Subs.
rberns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2013, 12:46 AM   #14
rberns


 
rberns's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 Camaro 2SS/RS
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA
Posts: 2,706
Quote:
Originally Posted by San2cci View Post
Damn; what other bolt ons can I do that wont void warranty? I have muffler delete, cold air intake, and ported throttle body.
You can always get yourself some high flow cats. Added power and deeper exhaust note. However, if you ever plan on going with headers in the near future this will be a waste of money.
__________________
2011 Camaro 2SS/RS, Circle D 3200, ADM Transmission Cooler, BTR Valve Train, Cam Motion custom grind, ARH 1 7/8, Cold Air Inductions, Katech C5R TC, Melling HV, BTR SLR lifters, LS2 Dampner, Trunion upgrade, LS9 head gaskets, RX CC, GFX, Subs.
rberns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2013, 12:50 AM   #15
Bo White
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2010 Summit White 1SS
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Vance Alabama
Posts: 2,418
Properly ported it will gain power.
Bo White is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2013, 05:21 AM   #16
litle88
V8 Lounge member #2
 
litle88's Avatar
 
Drives: 2001 Ws6
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Burbank,IL
Posts: 6,346
Quote:
Originally Posted by rberns View Post
Ported TB will not help in avoiding AFM from kicking in. A ported TB may get you 2 to 4 hp at max (debatelable). A ported TB is only going to give you better throttle response. Thats it. It wont give you any ponies or mitigate AFM from kicking in.

If you want to get rid of AFM you will be looking at getting a tune...which means voided warranty.
This PERIOD!
__________________
01 Ws6, m6, ASC#618 of 1583,40k Miles,shortblock built by AES the rest built by me,Ls3 416,FAST 102, NW102,LPE Ls3 heads

Join us:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/5138...3848358733509/
litle88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2013, 05:22 AM   #17
litle88
V8 Lounge member #2
 
litle88's Avatar
 
Drives: 2001 Ws6
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Burbank,IL
Posts: 6,346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abomb1223 View Post
I thought 2011 and below have the ability to flash the tune back to normal bc the technology is not on the 10s and 11s to see of if was tuned. So he may be ok!
All wrong. Miss information here!

Yes they can.
__________________
01 Ws6, m6, ASC#618 of 1583,40k Miles,shortblock built by AES the rest built by me,Ls3 416,FAST 102, NW102,LPE Ls3 heads

Join us:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/5138...3848358733509/
litle88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2013, 07:56 AM   #18
nyrfan
Let's go Rangers!
 
nyrfan's Avatar
 
Drives: 13' AGM 2SS/RS L99
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 9,598
Quote:
Originally Posted by rberns View Post
Below his avatar he states that he has a L99. Therefore, he would have AFM.

Once you get a tune you void warranty. Yes, you can bring it back to stock, but the dealership will still be able to see this information and know that you have tuned your vehicle. So basically, if you are not ready to void your powertrain warranty then don't tune because you won't be getting around it.
That's what I said. And when I said poster I was referring to Abomb1223, not the OP, so maybe that's why you were confused.


Sent from my 2SS/RS
__________________
Soprano 4/1/00-6/14/11, Gone but NEVER forgotten!
FSP tuned: 377/389
nyrfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2013, 11:08 AM   #19
SC2150
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2012 Camaro RS, RX supercharged
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bradenton, FL
Posts: 6,080
Quote:
Originally Posted by axis View Post
Says who?

You do realize that NONE of the ported TB's actually increase the size of the throat. They merely clean up the mouth. The CNC one does make pretty swirls all over the mouth which is suppose to help with throttle response.

The power gains of the VMax patteren ported TB increases the velocity of the flow...thats where the power comes from, not CFM from the blade size. Common misconception in all types of porting. Most hand ported TB's are polished to a high gloss inside the throat, and this causes more disruption of the flow so a loss of power building velocity is the result.:

Re: CNC ported throttle body...
Has been app 9-10 years since Pete developed (we worked in tandem on the project) the first for the LS1 F-body and C5 corvettes, and it took months (we were all hand porting before that with inconsistant results and no real duplicatable power gains except those playing dyno graph games such as test first w/hood closed and heat soaked, then hood open with their version of porting, etc.) and it was a real break-through them. To date it has grown into most GM, some Ford, and working on others now. It takes on average 3 plus months of testing and sacrificing TB's before the final cut & pattern is established. If you cut into the ridge on the bottom, you find flaring and idle issues. If you fill the depressions w/epoxy trying to improve flow then there are driveability issues. You start on a CAD program, but each step must be tested, then document the changes made to that portion of the bore, and the aggressivness and the shape. Then accomidate the thrttle blade shaft as that is a disruption as well.

We tried knife edging the blade, but that affects the off idle transition w/no real gains at WOT. We tried shaving the shaft but that causes mure disruption than leaving it alone (never would have thought that as we did that hand porting for years on the assumption it would help).

And each version of TB and the model of car it is on gives different results. The gen 5 camaro with the LS3 and it has a 90* intake tube only gives 8-12 rwhp if that, yet the corvette w/same motor & TB sees 10-14 plus (some show as much as 16, but not the norm) as it has a pretty straight shot intake tube.

Lots of variables learned in this.

Now, some reading from some of the most respected and knowledgable porting engineers on the planet:

Re: CNC ported throttle body... .

It is not just flow that makes power, you need velocity as well. You can bolt on a 55 gallon drum and get flow beyond anything....but it is how clean that flow is and thats the key to the textured porting and variable pattern.

I will let the testing show, but read this article to understand more:

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tec...g/viewall.html

----------

This article quotes several of the industries most talented....now most of this is on cylinder heads, but the same principals apply to flow anywhere on the inlet side of an engine.

If your hand ported is highly polished in the bore then that will cause enough disturbance that all things equal in the blade size, the textured TB will make more power.

Darin Morgan is who I trained under:

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...n/viewall.html

Have been doing this for over 38 years and before modern technology showed we were wasting time and COSTING power, we polished all ports after porting. Read this...Rottler recently applied for a patent and this is used in all types of porting, except we still polish the exhaust ports to prevent carbon buildup:

http://www.rottlermfg.com/brochures/...ochure_web.pdf


So much misinformation and misunderstanding on flow & velocity....you can have all the flow you want, but if its disturbed and velocity is lost, so is power.

Summed up pretty good in this paragraph:

CFM and Velocity

Darin Morgan:
"Make no mistake, velocity is the primary variable in the design of the entire induction system. I often say that my job title should be Velocity Manager instead of Cylinder Head Designer. Air speed is 10 times more important than raw flow numbers. If you kill the velocity by 10 percent, you will kill almost 40 percent of the wave and ram energy that dynamically fills the cylinder! Raw airflow cfm is an important variable as well; it's just not as important. If you buy a cylinder head that is properly sized for a flow of 400 cfm and your engine is only asking for 350 cfm, you will not only fail to achieve the power potential that the 400 cfm would have given you, you will also fail to reach the power that the 350 cfm would have given you. That's because you killed all the air speed in the induction system. If your engine is asking for 350 cfm and you give it a properly sized cylinder head flowing 350 cfm, your airflow demand is matched and your air speed is matched. You then have a chance of achieving the power potential that 350 cfm can give you.





SC2150 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2013, 01:57 PM   #20
Camarojt

 
Camarojt's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011camaro SS
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Allen, Tx
Posts: 1,711
Very good info!! way to break it down!
Camarojt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2013, 03:24 PM   #21
CGT
 
Drives: 2011 SSm6
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: St.Louis
Posts: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by SC2150 View Post
The power gains of the VMax patteren ported TB increases the velocity of the flow...thats where the power comes from, not CFM from the blade size. Common misconception in all types of porting. Most hand ported TB's are polished to a high gloss inside the throat, and this causes more disruption of the flow so a loss of power building velocity is the result.:

Re: CNC ported throttle body...
Has been app 9-10 years since Pete developed (we worked in tandem on the project) the first for the LS1 F-body and C5 corvettes, and it took months (we were all hand porting before that with inconsistant results and no real duplicatable power gains except those playing dyno graph games such as test first w/hood closed and heat soaked, then hood open with their version of porting, etc.) and it was a real break-through them. To date it has grown into most GM, some Ford, and working on others now. It takes on average 3 plus months of testing and sacrificing TB's before the final cut & pattern is established. If you cut into the ridge on the bottom, you find flaring and idle issues. If you fill the depressions w/epoxy trying to improve flow then there are driveability issues. You start on a CAD program, but each step must be tested, then document the changes made to that portion of the bore, and the aggressivness and the shape. Then accomidate the thrttle blade shaft as that is a disruption as well.

We tried knife edging the blade, but that affects the off idle transition w/no real gains at WOT. We tried shaving the shaft but that causes mure disruption than leaving it alone (never would have thought that as we did that hand porting for years on the assumption it would help).

And each version of TB and the model of car it is on gives different results. The gen 5 camaro with the LS3 and it has a 90* intake tube only gives 8-12 rwhp if that, yet the corvette w/same motor & TB sees 10-14 plus (some show as much as 16, but not the norm) as it has a pretty straight shot intake tube.

Lots of variables learned in this.

Now, some reading from some of the most respected and knowledgable porting engineers on the planet:

Re: CNC ported throttle body... .

It is not just flow that makes power, you need velocity as well. You can bolt on a 55 gallon drum and get flow beyond anything....but it is how clean that flow is and thats the key to the textured porting and variable pattern.

I will let the testing show, but read this article to understand more:

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tec...g/viewall.html

----------

This article quotes several of the industries most talented....now most of this is on cylinder heads, but the same principals apply to flow anywhere on the inlet side of an engine.

If your hand ported is highly polished in the bore then that will cause enough disturbance that all things equal in the blade size, the textured TB will make more power.

Darin Morgan is who I trained under:

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...n/viewall.html

Have been doing this for over 38 years and before modern technology showed we were wasting time and COSTING power, we polished all ports after porting. Read this...Rottler recently applied for a patent and this is used in all types of porting, except we still polish the exhaust ports to prevent carbon buildup:

http://www.rottlermfg.com/brochures/...ochure_web.pdf


So much misinformation and misunderstanding on flow & velocity....you can have all the flow you want, but if its disturbed and velocity is lost, so is power.

Summed up pretty good in this paragraph:

CFM and Velocity

Darin Morgan: "Make no mistake, velocity is the primary variable in the design of the entire induction system. I often say that my job title should be Velocity Manager instead of Cylinder Head Designer. Air speed is 10 times more important than raw flow numbers. If you kill the velocity by 10 percent, you will kill almost 40 percent of the wave and ram energy that dynamically fills the cylinder! Raw airflow cfm is an important variable as well; it's just not as important. If you buy a cylinder head that is properly sized for a flow of 400 cfm and your engine is only asking for 350 cfm, you will not only fail to achieve the power potential that the 400 cfm would have given you, you will also fail to reach the power that the 350 cfm would have given you. That's because you killed all the air speed in the induction system. If your engine is asking for 350 cfm and you give it a properly sized cylinder head flowing 350 cfm, your airflow demand is matched and your air speed is matched. You then have a chance of achieving the power potential that 350 cfm can give you.





Axis is correct smallest area or restriction of the throttle body has not been altered. Not to say flow couldnt be increased by removing the ridge before the blade, but this isnt reinventing the wheel here.

Darin would tell you that if you increase velocity through the same size orifice then it would have to result in an increase in cfm.

You have links to things that just simply dont apply to something like this throttle body. I dont know if you just dont get it, or your deliberately trying to deceive. Either way, port two throttle bodies, remove the machining marks off of one of them by polishing. Flow them both. Get back with me. Remember if the throttle body with the machining marks doesnt flow more air, then velocity hasnt increased. Fuel atomization also hasnt improved because no fuel is present. These arent my opinions are rules, they are mother natures and all the links in the world wont change that.

I'm sure your product is consistent being that it is cnc machined, and thats good for the customer, and good for repeatablity. But thats where the magic ends.
CGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2013, 04:46 PM   #22
dekan513
chevy pride
 
dekan513's Avatar
 
Drives: 2ss/rs
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: pikeville ky
Posts: 2,145
just like having after market heads some have smaller ports but flow more air. its all in the design.
__________________

check out ky speeds fb page https://www.facebook.com/kyspeed
dekan513 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2013, 04:48 PM   #23
SC2150
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2012 Camaro RS, RX supercharged
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bradenton, FL
Posts: 6,080
You are correct that increasing velocity does increase flow, but read this statement here:
Darin Morgan: "Make no mistake, velocity is the primary variable in the design of the entire induction system. I often say that my job title should be Velocity Manager instead of Cylinder Head Designer. Air speed is 10 times more important than raw flow numbers. If you kill the velocity by 10 percent, you will kill almost 40 percent of the wave and ram energy that dynamically fills the cylinder! Raw airflow cfm is an important variable as well; it's just not as important. If you buy a cylinder head that is properly sized for a flow of 400 cfm and your engine is only asking for 350 cfm, you will not only fail to achieve the power potential that the 400 cfm would have given you, you will also fail to reach the power that the 350 cfm would have given you. That's because you killed all the air speed in the induction system. If your engine is asking for 350 cfm and you give it a properly sized cylinder head flowing 350 cfm, your airflow demand is matched and your air speed is matched. You then have a chance of achieving the power potential that 350 cfm can give you


This has been gone over and over agin for the past 9 years in so many performance magazines that have done the VMax testing, dozens of independant shops, different parts of the country, etc. It is proven science and has been beat to death by doubters like yourself. Tell you what, find someone here that has done before and after testing in a controlled setting like say here...and this is on the V6! Check w/Mike Norris, Ted Jannetty, etc. to see verifiable results.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...Vmax+dyno+test

Are you claiming Rottler, one of the most respected in CNC porting machines for the performance industry is lieing?
SC2150 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2013, 04:48 PM   #24
Bo White
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2010 Summit White 1SS
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Vance Alabama
Posts: 2,418
The restriction in stock form is not the blade size.
Bo White is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-21-2013, 04:52 PM   #25
SC2150
Account Suspended
 
Drives: 2012 Camaro RS, RX supercharged
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bradenton, FL
Posts: 6,080
Bo is also one of the few that I can attest can hand port with similar gains....unlike most we see.

I'll post the before and after #'s from the flow bench.
SC2150 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:12 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.