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Old 02-24-2013, 09:53 PM   #76
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good impressive video. Looks like the ZL1 cruised that course.
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Old 02-24-2013, 10:01 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 72MachOne99GT View Post
Are you 16 years old? Maybe another possible explanation behind the "lack of credibility" is the sheep hearding that's taken place with people like yourself.

Yes the ZL1 is a nice car, does an exceptional job handling it's weight and mass around a road course, and is evidently easier to drive than a car that has never staked any claim to being easy to drive, but heaven forbid anyone attempt to compare it to something as lowly as a prototype Subaru.

It's apparent you find it insulting that anyone would mention the two together. Guess what, after your done stroking your ego, you're welcome to return to the automtive enthusiasts reality where any car, given the chance, can be appreciated.

Best car in the last 60 years, period.... Give me a break.
I hate agreeing with Mustang drivers.

I wouldn't be quite as harsh, but I would point out that there have been some great cars in that timeframe. Debating the best of them would require a quantification and qualification of styling, handling, reliability, performance, sound, materials, and manufacturing, and that would be a long debate.
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Old 02-24-2013, 11:55 PM   #78
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Man people get so pissed so easily...its fun to watch these comparisons. Atleast we all have something better than a 4 Cylinder Camry that we can choose to drive and enjoy. Yes the Camaro looked like it was just cruising along while Makinen(sp) was getting an aerobic workout.
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:12 AM   #79
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Are you 16 years old? Maybe another possible explanation behind the "lack of credibility" is the sheep hearding that's taken place with people like yourself.

Yes the ZL1 is a nice car, does an exceptional job handling it's weight and mass around a road course, and is evidently easier to drive than a car that has never staked any claim to being easy to drive, but heaven forbid anyone attempt to compare it to something as lowly as a prototype Subaru.

It's apparent you find it insulting that anyone would mention the two together. Guess what, after your done stroking your ego, you're welcome to return to the automtive enthusiasts reality where any car, given the chance, can be appreciated.

Best car in the last 60 years, period.... Give me a break.
I wonder if the stock Shelby GT500 can make it all the way around the Nurburgring before getting brake fade.

I'm dying to see what the stock Shelby GT500 can accomplish there...aren't you? When is some proud owner going to post a video? Or Ford. Or...anyone?

You know the problem with only having comparison videos with a Subaru? It's because we can't get our closest rival to even show up at the track. Frankly, I wouldn't mind having some comparison videos with other cars like the ZR1 and other cars better & worse.

Mostly, I want to see what the Shelby can do there. Ford...make it happen!
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Old 02-25-2013, 08:04 AM   #80
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Nice video. Just happy seeing the Camaro get respect across the auto industry. It would have been nicer to see SS/1LE against this car but on another note...


I think they need to do something for the V6 guys... is the 1LE package available for them at all? Just a thought.
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Old 02-25-2013, 10:52 AM   #81
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Good video comparison. Amazing how close the sti stays until the longer straights where the ZL1 pulls away... like it should.

The STI is $15,000 cheaper than a ZL1 and obviously outgunned. And the motor in the STI won't blow up any time soon. Subaru's are extremely well engineered cars and their boxers are bullett proof. They have a very strong racing pedigree and it shows.

Yes, most people would take a ZL1 over an STI, it's $15,000 more car. But the guys driving STIs are in the Camaro SS price range. The STI is a much better all around performer than an SS without the 1LE package.

Been a Camaro guy my whole life but I can't help but respect the Subarus. They are mean little buggars.


I personally had an STI prior to getting my SS and I truely miss the handling and the all wheel drive experience. I had about 10k in upgrades so going from the STI to the SS was a bit of a downgrade in regards to overall performance but the Camaro is an amazing car. I am sure if I could afford to spend 10k on the SS, it would be a sick car.
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:17 PM   #82
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Awesome vid!
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Old 02-25-2013, 12:27 PM   #83
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I went to the Subaru Canada web site to build one of these cars for the sake of interest.

By the looks of it they donít come cheap. I figure the price tag after taxes is around $51000.00. There are a lot nicer cars out there for that price; also I donít think Subaru has a warranty for track use if something breaks on the car.

Here is a copy of some of the engine specs.

Engine: 2.5L Dual Overhead Cam (DOHC), 16-valve, horizontally opposed, 4-cylinder SUBARU BOXER high-performance engine with high-pressure turbocharger and high-capacity intercooler, Electronic Throttle Control and Dual Active Valve Control System
Power: 305 hp @ 6000 rpm
Torque: 290 lb-ft @ 4000 rpm

The curb weight for this car was about 2800 lbs

It would be interesting to see how long this engine lasts before it blows up.
The STI motors run for a long time - that's a stout block.
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:28 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Steve Dallas View Post
I wonder if the stock Shelby GT500 can make it all the way around the Nurburgring before getting brake fade.

I'm dying to see what the stock Shelby GT500 can accomplish there...aren't you? When is some proud owner going to post a video? Or Ford. Or...anyone?

You know the problem with only having comparison videos with a Subaru? It's because we can't get our closest rival to even show up at the track. Frankly, I wouldn't mind having some comparison videos with other cars like the ZR1 and other cars better & worse.

Mostly, I want to see what the Shelby can do there. Ford...make it happen!
I'm not personally invested in what it would run there as I opted for a car without any additional goodies other than the Recaro option.

Having said that, it would be interesting to see a PP/TP equipped '13 run a few laps with a competent driver and favorable weather conditions. I'm not familiar enough with the circuit to know what it favors/weaknesses it points out in the overall performance of a car, but I seriously doubt it would have any issue completing a wide open lap on the stock brakes/fluid.

I'm sure we're all aware of the difference between brake fade and brake failure. I personally think the Gt500 would be exceptionally close (if not eel out a victory) in the timed lap...

Of course that's nothing but my opinion, which carries as much weight as poo soaked toilet paper, especially in a forum with an ever so slight focus on the Camaro over the Mustang

Until then though I'll enjoy a healthy dose of competition and trash talking, and continue to laugh at the blind fanboism on both sides of the fence.
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...if you want to compare performance numbers, well, the GT500 retains it's title of the highest hp, worst performing car in the world.
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:59 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Steve Dallas View Post
I wonder if the stock Shelby GT500 can make it all the way around the Nurburgring before getting brake fade.

I'm dying to see what the stock Shelby GT500 can accomplish there...aren't you? When is some proud owner going to post a video? Or Ford. Or...anyone?

You know the problem with only having comparison videos with a Subaru? It's because we can't get our closest rival to even show up at the track. Frankly, I wouldn't mind having some comparison videos with other cars like the ZR1 and other cars better & worse.

Mostly, I want to see what the Shelby can do there. Ford...make it happen!
Exactly. And Ford was there more than once in the months leading up to the GT500 release. There can be no other explanation other than the times weren't impressive. That's the most logical reason.
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Old 02-25-2013, 04:01 PM   #86
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I was always curious why they never posted times with the 2013 gt500 in the ring. They were there testing. I am sure they pulled decent numbers. Would assume that if the car didn't handle the corners as well as it should have it would make it up in some of the straights. Of course pretty confident it did not beat the ZL1 or they would have posted it.
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Old 02-25-2013, 04:17 PM   #87
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I dont think Ford ever claimed any 1/4 mile times for the 2013 GT500. The magazines did that. Any Nurburgring times will most likely be done by a magazine
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Old 02-25-2013, 05:43 PM   #88
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Ford has never played the lap time game. Even with the Ford GT the only 'ring time was done by a magazine. It's a little funny to see some guys so caught up on 'ring times now. 4-5 years ago most American car enthusiasts didn't even know what the 'ring was and I specifically remember numerous debates on forums where muscle car enthusiasts ignored 'ring times as any sort of valuable indicator when comparing against the likes of the M's, GTR's and other track weapons from Europe/Asia. It has become somewhat of a playstation mentality on the internet that 'ring times are an end-all, especially over the past 2-3 years since Chevy really joined the 'ring game. A great time means something for sure, but it isn't everything.

The zl1 time shows how capable the ZL is, but when you get into the nitty-gritty, even 9-10 seconds on such a large track with so many variations in conditions and drivers can change day to day. For example, the August '09 ZR1 time is slower than the ZL1 time. That sure doesn't mean the ZL is faster than the ZR, just that on those days the ZL driver did a better job than the ZR driver or conditions allowed better traction. I would be more concerned with what you can do and how the traits of the specific vehicle complement your driving style.
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Old 02-25-2013, 06:11 PM   #89
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Ford has never played the lap time game. Even with the Ford GT the only 'ring time was done by a magazine. It's a little funny to see some guys so caught up on 'ring times now. 4-5 years ago most American car enthusiasts didn't even know what the 'ring was and I specifically remember numerous debates on forums where muscle car enthusiasts ignored 'ring times as any sort of valuable indicator when comparing against the likes of the M's, GTR's and other track weapons from Europe/Asia. It has become somewhat of a playstation mentality on the internet that 'ring times are an end-all, especially over the past 2-3 years since Chevy really joined the 'ring game. A great time means something for sure, but it isn't everything.

The zl1 time shows how capable the ZL is, but when you get into the nitty-gritty, even 9-10 seconds on such a large track with so many variations in conditions and drivers can change day to day. For example, the August '09 ZR1 time is slower than the ZL1 time. That sure doesn't mean the ZL is faster than the ZR, just that on those days the ZL driver did a better job than the ZR driver or conditions allowed better traction. I would be more concerned with what you can do and how the traits of the specific vehicle complement your driving style.
The lap time game? i didn't know it was a game? It's a measure of performance for sure. And the times for the ZL1 are crazy impressive. I think calling it a playstation mentality sounds pretty condescending. there's no playstation going on. that real engineering throwing down some killer numbers in the Z and 1LE. things have changed now that chevy has built these machines. Yes, people are definitely getting interested in lap times now instead of just the straight line. welcome to the next gen of muscle car!
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Old 02-25-2013, 06:14 PM   #90
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I was always curious why they never posted times with the 2013 gt500 in the ring. They were there testing. I am sure they pulled decent numbers. Would assume that if the car didn't handle the corners as well as it should have it would make it up in some of the straights. Of course pretty confident it did not beat the ZL1 or they would have posted it.
Yep!
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Old 02-25-2013, 06:55 PM   #91
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The lap time game? i didn't know it was a game? It's a measure of performance for sure. And the times for the ZL1 are crazy impressive. I think calling it a playstation mentality sounds pretty condescending. there's no playstation going on. that real engineering throwing down some killer numbers in the Z and 1LE. things have changed now that chevy has built these machines. Yes, people are definitely getting interested in lap times now instead of just the straight line. welcome to the next gen of muscle car!
I don't think he was suggesting that it's not an excellent tool for measuring the overall performance of a car.

He's saying that taking the best overall achieved time from a selection of likely hundreds of laps might be misleading. Like taking the 11.7 the fastest ZL1 time ran on the strip and calling it the norm, that anything slower is a poor driver, and comparing it to another vehicle that might not have ran in similar conditions.

I think too much is put into it, especially in terms of the ZL1 and the GT500, but some people are interested in what times are put down and that's fine.
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...if you want to compare performance numbers, well, the GT500 retains it's title of the highest hp, worst performing car in the world.
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Old 02-25-2013, 07:29 PM   #92
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The lap time game? i didn't know it was a game? It's a measure of performance for sure. And the times for the ZL1 are crazy impressive. I think calling it a playstation mentality sounds pretty condescending. there's no playstation going on. that real engineering throwing down some killer numbers in the Z and 1LE. things have changed now that chevy has built these machines. Yes, people are definitely getting interested in lap times now instead of just the straight line. welcome to the next gen of muscle car!
No no no, that's not what I meant. The 'ring puts the car through the paces over and over again, but it also does this for the driver. That is not a game. My point is people are treating these lap times like they are a playstation game and everything is always constant. If two cars are close it's really a toss up and sometimes even greater gaps are not meaningful, but some are stuck on a couple seconds on a 12.9mi long road course. A couple degree change in ambient temperature or a half-lap newer tires can make up that much time. It has become a game because soem people are making a "race" out of testing that takes place in different months of the year with different drivers. The auto magazines and internet community have made it into a game.

As I stated, the best lap of the zl1 shows how seriously capable the car is and there is no question it is a very capable car. It does not mean that the zl1 is a faster track car than every car that has ever put up a slower lap and the same goes for any other lap time on the list. That is what I meant by it being a game. I would love for Ford to join in the game, I was just pointing out that they never have.
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Old 02-25-2013, 09:13 PM   #93
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I don't think he was suggesting that it's not an excellent tool for measuring the overall performance of a car.

He's saying that taking the best overall achieved time from a selection of likely hundreds of laps might be misleading. Like taking the 11.7 the fastest ZL1 time ran on the strip and calling it the norm, that anything slower is a poor driver, and comparing it to another vehicle that might not have ran in similar conditions.

I think too much is put into it, especially in terms of the ZL1 and the GT500, but some people are interested in what times are put down and that's fine.
Of course that's fine. A lot of people are interested in what times are put down. And no, i don't think too much is put into it. it's a gauge on the amazing capabilities of the Z and 1LE, especially compared to other times from great cars. So "on any given day" is what the people will say who are trying to temper the enthusiasm of the camaro fans. Not gonna work.
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Old 02-25-2013, 09:20 PM   #94
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No no no, that's not what I meant. The 'ring puts the car through the paces over and over again, but it also does this for the driver. That is not a game. My point is people are treating these lap times like they are a playstation game and everything is always constant. If two cars are close it's really a toss up and sometimes even greater gaps are not meaningful, but some are stuck on a couple seconds on a 12.9mi long road course. A couple degree change in ambient temperature or a half-lap newer tires can make up that much time. It has become a game because soem people are making a "race" out of testing that takes place in different months of the year with different drivers. The auto magazines and internet community have made it into a game.

As I stated, the best lap of the zl1 shows how seriously capable the car is and there is no question it is a very capable car. It does not mean that the zl1 is a faster track car than every car that has ever put up a slower lap and the same goes for any other lap time on the list. That is what I meant by it being a game. I would love for Ford to join in the game, I was just pointing out that they never have.
By your same logic, the ZL1 is capable of faster lap times with more favorable weather conditions, driver, etc. so what we do have is the time and video proof. if the Z's time is 2 seconds faster than another car's time, then it is what it is until that car posts a quicker time. i don't see the point in someone grumbling about the enthusiasm of the camaro fans on this site. But i've noticed that's the norm, especially on these back pages when everyone else has moved on. always the last 3 or 4 guys still talking smack trying to downplay everything. you don't seem too bad, but your post was interesting to say the least, curious about the motivation there. but lest i become the type of person i'm mocking i should move on. cheers.
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Old 02-25-2013, 09:48 PM   #95
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yeah that was also a pro behind the wheel subaru vs test engineer behind the wheel of the camaro.

but you right impressive none the less.
Pro with limited experience on that track vs. and engineer that has thousands of miles on the 'Ring. ZL1 not only had a hp advantage, but also the driver advantage.
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Old 02-25-2013, 09:48 PM   #96
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Temper the enthusiasm of the Camaro fans? I think it's awesome the car ran a time everyone is proud of.

If there is a sense of downplaying the cars achievements, then there's certainly at least an equal amount of 'tempering' the crowd that's excited by 662hp (just throwing power at an already overgrown problem) 200mph (impractical and yet to be acheived) and mid 11s@127 (quarter mile times are no longer an acceptable measuring stick).
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Old 02-25-2013, 10:33 PM   #97
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[QUOTE=72MachOne99GT;6209314]Temper the enthusiasm of the Camaro fans? I think it's awesome the car ran a time everyone is proud of.

If there is a sense of downplaying the cars achievements, then there's certainly at least an equal amount of 'tempering' the crowd that's excited by 662hp (just throwing power at an already overgrown problem) 200mph (impractical and yet to be acheived) and mid 11s@127 (quarter mile times are no longer an acceptable measuring stick).[/QUOTE

The car ran an amazing time, best handling car in it's price range and corresponding fastest lap time i bet. I'd love to see the 1LE's time.
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Old 02-25-2013, 10:56 PM   #98
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The car ran an amazing time, best handling car in it's price range and corresponding fastest lap time i bet. I'd love to see the 1LE's time.
Best handling? I don't know about that. Fastest in it's price range? Other then the Corvette, sure seems like it is. I love them in a convertible though. Something about it just seems so....right.
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:55 AM   #99
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MASSIVE price difference...The ZL1 is a sexy beast and a powerhouse...but these are two totally different cars.
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Old 02-26-2013, 06:39 PM   #100
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The ZL1 appears to be more composed and controllable...while the Subaru seems more nimble.

Cool video(s)!

...I am, however, detecting some anti-ZL1 undertones to some posts...please remember where you are before you (you know who you are) takes something personally...and refrain from raining on our parade.

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Pro with limited experience on that track vs. and engineer that has thousands of miles on the 'Ring. ZL1 not only had a hp advantage, but also the driver advantage.
Aaron did/does not have thousands of miles on the Nordschleife....He is a phenomenal drive in his own right, and I have the passenger-seat time to support that claim ()....but he's not a "ringer" at Nurburgring. I have no knowledge of the driver of the Subaru to compare, however.

ZL1's biggest advantage is handling and stability...it is a relatively easy car to drive fast, and it's on-track limits are stratospheric. Put an awesome driver behind the wheel, and the combination is nuclear.
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