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Old 02-23-2013, 01:20 PM   #1
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Measuring AFR w/ Wideband

I plan to install an AFR wideband. Car has headers w/cats and x-pipe. Where is the best place to install the sensors, and do I need two sensors to measure AFR on each bank? Or, is measurement at only one side sufficient?
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Old 02-23-2013, 01:43 PM   #2
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One side will do, although both is better. Make sure you install the sensor(s) BEFORE the cats.
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Old 02-24-2013, 06:54 PM   #3
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Thanks! I ordered 2 since there seems to be some value added.
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Old 02-25-2013, 08:47 AM   #4
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Usually the DS bank runs a bit leaner so I put one there. Let us know what you see on the dual setup.
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Old 02-25-2013, 04:11 PM   #5
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Usually the DS bank runs a bit leaner so I put one there. Let us know what you see on the dual setup.
Will do. I'll post some logs. May end up not being a good use of funds, but at this point, what's a few extra bucks... Plus I had a few beers by the time I got around to ordering.
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Old 03-02-2013, 09:21 PM   #6
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Make sure the wideband is at like the 3 o'clock position so the head doesn't get wet.
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Old 03-21-2013, 07:19 PM   #7
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As promised, if anyone is interested here are the datalogging results with 2 Aeroforce widebands. There are differences in readings in both the logs and on the gauge while driving normally, usually slight. Not sure if the info on both sides was useful to the tuner or not...
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Old 03-21-2013, 07:40 PM   #8
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Pretty rich, but that should be good data for an updated tune!
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Old 03-21-2013, 09:09 PM   #9
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Already got the retune and ready to upload it tomorrow. Quick turn around at JRE!
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:30 PM   #10
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Did you install the O2's before the cats? If so, do you have a pic of them installed? I am considering the same setup. Just curious about the positioning because I will have to get the bungs welded onto the mid pipe. I have been told that you can just use the downstream (post cat) bungs since you tune out the second set of 02s anyway.
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:21 AM   #11
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I installed before the cats just after the collector. There is not much real estate in this area on my car. I used the do-it-yourself AEM clamps with the bung pre-welded. I got tired of taking my car to shops and having them ding or scratch it. Easy install using a stepped drill bit. Not the best picture...
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:30 AM   #12
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I thought about adding a 2nd wideband sensor also but was told the reading would be off a little. But it doesn't look to off. May try this later on also. What meter are you using?

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Old 03-22-2013, 08:00 AM   #13
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I thought about adding a 2nd wideband sensor also but was told the reading would be off a little. But it doesn't look to off. May try this later on also. What meter are you using?

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Using an Aeroforce Interceptor w/ their AFR kit. Also using SCT handheld to log.
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Old 03-25-2013, 07:09 AM   #14
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I am not sure why its so important to go in before the cats? On the dyno. The probe is inserted at the tail pipe. Obviously well after the cats. Why can't the now useless post cat bungs be used? Since the secondaries are tuned out... Hopefully someone can help answer my question


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Old 03-25-2013, 09:08 AM   #15
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Post cat readings will typically be a bit leaner than readings taken before the cats.
I've seen anywhere from 1 tenth to 5 tenths leaner at the tailpipe vs before the cats on different cars at different points in time.
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Old 03-25-2013, 02:53 PM   #16
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On my '02 WS6 the post HFC reading was ~0.1 AFR leaner at WOT. At cruise (stoich) they were equal. Not enough to worry about. Only place I had to put the sensor in, no room pre cat on that setup for a second bung on the DS. Same tune same day with the same sensor replacing the pre and then post cat one in SD mode. YMMV.
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:44 PM   #17
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Quote:
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I am not sure why its so important to go in before the cats? On the dyno. The probe is inserted at the tail pipe. Obviously well after the cats. Why can't the now useless post cat bungs be used? Since the secondaries are tuned out... Hopefully someone can help answer my question


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Cats will burn some of the left over Oxygen and there are always exhaust leaks along exhaust systems that will be picked up by a tail pipe sensor.

We only use a Tail Pipe sensor as a Last resort to Measure AFR.

Ted.
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:59 PM   #18
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Cats will burn some of the left over Oxygen and there are always exhaust leaks along exhaust systems that will be picked up by a tail pipe sensor.

We only use a Tail Pipe sensor as a Last resort to Measure AFR.

Ted.

Thanks Ted. I get it that all the way to the tailpipe is the least accurate. But, in a high flow cat setup on a bolt ons car, is it worth drilling my ceramic coated kooks LTs?
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Old 03-25-2013, 04:09 PM   #19
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Thanks Ted. I get it that all the way to the tailpipe is the least accurate. But, in a high flow cat setup on a bolt ons car, is it worth drilling my ceramic coated kooks LTs?
I guess it depends on how important to you, Accurate Data Is.

We do it daily, because it is Very Important to Us.

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Old 03-25-2013, 04:16 PM   #20
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I wish MFRs would consider this crap when designing go fast parts. If the best wideband O2 placement is pre cat, they should install a bung there for you. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Again, thanks for the info.

Now I need to decide what I want to do.
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Old 03-25-2013, 04:30 PM   #21
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Quote:
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I wish MFRs would consider this crap when designing go fast parts. If the best wideband O2 placement is pre cat, they should install a bung there for you. Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Again, thanks for the info.

Now I need to decide what I want to do.
I'm willing to bet 99% of people that put headers on their cars don't own or have any desire to use a wideband and tune their own cars.
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Old 03-25-2013, 04:36 PM   #22
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Ted tuned my car, which runs excellent by the way. So much so I used about 3/4 a tank driving the back roads of Virginia because I was enjoying it so much. We went through 8 tunes and the last one, I think, was to revise the tune for the difference in AFR measured at a local shop in February via tail pipe and datalogging with my new sensors installed in March. So, I would think there must have been a good amount of variance between the two measurement points. I must say that Ted worked real hard on my car to get it perfect. Feedback was always received within a hour or two of my emails. My only regret is sticking with my local tuner for too long and spending a few grand that I shouldn't have. Thanks JRE!
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Old 03-25-2013, 04:51 PM   #23
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I'm willing to bet 99% of people that put headers on their cars don't own or have any desire to use a wideband and tune their own cars.

I have no plans to tune my own vehicle either. But if the right way to tune is precat o2, then they should include the bung. There are very few LT installs that don't result in a tune. The most accurate tunes use/need precat o2 data (as i now understand from this thread). So its a 25 cent job added to the building of the headers but a much bigger deal after they are sold especially if they are installed on the car already. They could easily just come with plugs in the extra bungs. I would have paid an extra $10 for them to be included when I ordered.
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Old 03-25-2013, 05:07 PM   #24
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It's really not needed.
Pull one of the front O2's, plug your wideband in, put the car in open loop, tune it, pull the wideband out when you're done, put the stock O2 back in.....and enjoy.
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Old 03-25-2013, 05:14 PM   #25
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One of the deciding factors on my Kook's LT's was the second bung on the bank 1 header.

Some of us like to log & tune.
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