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Old 04-18-2013, 02:20 PM   #151
litle88
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Wow, how the hell did that come apart???
That's a first for me. Usually the lobe is gone, there's metal all over the place, the bearings are shit and the lifter is stuck.

You lucked out!!!! Man I ain't lyin!
He's gotta be Irish! Lol
That would of NEVEF happened to me, the lobe would of seized to the cam if it was me lol.
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Old 04-18-2013, 02:40 PM   #152
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This sucks. Now I'm wondering if I jumped the gun thinking it was a typical pump failure, the lifter is out but the roller,bearings and pin are missing. The odd thing is the holes in the side of the lifter where the pin presses in are in tact with no visable damage. At this point I'm not sure if the lifter failed taking the pump with it or the other way around. Where as the car never skipped a beat untill it lost pressure I'm thinking the pump failed first but it ran for such a short time I don't see how the lifter would break

Any how, the lifter bore is in good shape and the cam lobe is in tact so I'm going to put it together. I think I may drop the pan to clean it out which means i will be cutting the cross member and fabricating a bolt on one. THERE IS NO WAY ON EARTH I'M GONNA PULL THE MOTOR TO CLEAN THE PAN.
one would think anything that got thru the oil pickup screen and pump to jam the relief valve or the lifter wouldve left its mark on the pump rotors.
it might be the lifter collapsed and pounded a bit during the oil psi loss, lost the pin and roller and then siezed from lack of lube.
is the one that failed farthest from the lifter oil gallery supply point?
I would also roll the pushrods on a pane of glass to make sure none are bent.
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Old 04-18-2013, 03:36 PM   #153
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Old 04-18-2013, 03:59 PM   #154
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I can careless about your pride or manliness but it seems like you have a complex and are threatened by guys that actually wrench. I still think you've never wrenched anyways. Ted who lives and works in Rhode Island has never stepped on my toes im in Illinois lol, further more I proved my point to him in the other Melling oil pump thread. Are you going to keep going or will you still be trolling this thread, help/support give some technical insight (I doubt that though) or just sit back in your leather recliner, have your secretary hold your calls for a few, sip on some Starbucks and chill out so you can learn. Lol
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He's gotta be Irish! Lol
That would of NEVEF happened to me, the lobe would of seized to the cam if it was me lol.
I've taken your advice and am now learning. I always thought the lobes were already part of the cam and therefore it would not be possible to seize to itself when it is already one unit. Oh well.
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Old 04-18-2013, 04:04 PM   #155
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Lol wow you really are a troll

Sorry Pleeeeease forgive me. I meant lifter.

Wow now your learning keep sipping.
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Old 04-18-2013, 04:38 PM   #156
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Wow. I come back to check on the OP's progress only to find out that he's MIA, CFD's rig is stewed, and there's a fist fight going on. I gotta check in more often.

FWIW, litle88's opinions are pretty valuable. Not withstanding, spirited discussion is always entertaining.
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Old 04-18-2013, 07:10 PM   #157
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I've been busy with this, not MIA. lol. I don't have good feelings about this, here is why. The cam lobe shows some scuffing from contacting the lifter minus the roller but nothing that would suggest changing the cam, there are two small scratches in the lifter bore from removing the lifter but again nothing that bothers me much. I used the camera and checked all around the cam area as best I could and couldn't see the missing roller or any other parts. I wanted to see if I could find any missing parts so I ran the oil I changed when doing the pump through a filter and found a very small amount of debris, I wasn't expecting to do it so the drain pan wasn't spotless to begin with. I then drained the new oil and ran it through the filter, I found a good bit more debris than with the old oil which makes me believe the damage to the lifter was done due to the loss of oil pressure and possibly while running it after the pump change. I tried a small magnet in the pan but couldn't come up with any debris but can get very little access of the pan. I haven't started it as I'm concerned about the location of the missing parts. I'm hoping they are in the pan and not someplace in the cam area that I couldn't see. I'm going to start it briefly in the am , if all sounds ok I'll shut it down and get it to my buddy's shop and get it on the rack and as I mentioned, the cross member is history. Making a bolt in cross member will be no problem. I'm just hopping the missing parts are in the pan, if not, well, let's just say I wont be happy. lol.

I'm still trying to comprehend how the roller,pin and bearings came out without munging up the holes for the pin, I doubt the pin coud shear and have everything come appart without damaging the holes or the small portion of lifter under them but as you can see in the pictures they are not damaged.
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Old 04-18-2013, 07:24 PM   #158
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Good Lord man, scrub those fingernails!

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This sucks. Now I'm wondering if I jumped the gun thinking it was a typical pump failure, the lifter is out but the roller,bearings and pin are missing. The odd thing is the holes in the side of the lifter where the pin presses in are in tact with no visable damage. At this point I'm not sure if the lifter failed taking the pump with it or the other way around. Where as the car never skipped a beat untill it lost pressure I'm thinking the pump failed first but it ran for such a short time I don't see how the lifter would break

Any how, the lifter bore is in good shape and the cam lobe is in tact so I'm going to put it together. I think I may drop the pan to clean it out which means i will be cutting the cross member and fabricating a bolt on one. THERE IS NO WAY ON EARTH I'M GONNA PULL THE MOTOR TO CLEAN THE PAN.
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Old 04-18-2013, 07:28 PM   #159
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Good Lord man, scrub those fingernails!

You get dirty working on cars!!
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Old 04-18-2013, 07:32 PM   #160
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True.

Just joking around.

Thanks for posting the pics and updates. Will be very good info if I ever encounter this situation. Hope it gets sorted out soon!

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You get dirty working on cars!!
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Old 04-18-2013, 09:35 PM   #161
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He's gotta be Irish! Lol
That would of NEVEF happened to me, the lobe would of seized to the cam if it was me lol.
Exactly!
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Old 04-18-2013, 10:28 PM   #162
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What GM high volume pump is that? You got a part number? Thanks
GM part #L200135297
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Old 04-19-2013, 03:55 AM   #163
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I'm still trying to comprehend how the roller,pin and bearings came out without munging up the holes for the pin, I doubt the pin coud shear and have everything come appart without damaging the holes or the small portion of lifter under them but as you can see in the pictures they are not damaged.
if the pin was held in by a press in/interference fit and the lifter got hot from lack of lube, that would explain the lifter body expanding allowing the pin to come out and the lifter to seize in the bore.
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Old 04-19-2013, 04:51 AM   #164
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if the pin was held in by a press in/interference fit and the lifter got hot from lack of lube, that would explain the lifter body expanding allowing the pin to come out and the lifter to seize in the bore.
I'm not happy with thae explanation. It would have to get extremely hot to allow that much expansion, where as the lifter is assembled both parts would get hot so the expansion between the two would not be that great, the valve springs pressure would also make it more difficult for the pin to just slide out and the pin would have to move sideways when the valvtrain motion is up and down. I'm not saying it's not possible, obviously it some how came out. It is also possible that the pin some how sheard and both ends came out but also seems kind on unlikely seeing there is no damage to the holes. Maybe if I can recover the pieces it will shed some light on the cause of failure. I also wish I was sure which happened first, lifter failure or pump failure.
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Old 04-19-2013, 07:01 AM   #165
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IT'S ALIVE.

Started it this morning and it sounds healthy as usual. There are no abnormal noises as of yet. I haven't driven it as the missing lifter pieces are in there somewhere, hopefully in the pan. I am going to try to get it to my buddy's shop later and drop the pan.

I am not sure yet but I think i came up with how I will deal with the cross member. I'm thinking of cutting it with a sawzall then programing four flanges that will be a tight fit over the member, then the flanges can be put on, bolted together and then welded to the crossmember pieces. This will allow for a tight fit and be removeable if needed in the future. If this works out I will be able to make flanges for anyone who needs to drop their pan and does not want to remove the motor. This is a similar design that I've used before when i built my '31 chevy frame.
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:04 AM   #166
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Glad to hear you're making progress. You certainly have done a lot of work in a short period of time. Have you considered trying a strong electro magnet across the outside of the pan and attempt to drag the internal steel debris over to the drain hole? Here is one site than has some magnets. It might be worth a shot before dropping the pan. Good luck.

http://www.mscdirect.com/browse/Clam...784&007=Search
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:13 AM   #167
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Glad to hear you're making progress. You certainly have done a lot of work in a short period of time. Have you considered trying a strong electro magnet across the outside of the pan and attempt to drag the internal steel debris over to the drain hole? Here is one site than has some magnets. It might be worth a shot before dropping the pan. Good luck.

http://www.mscdirect.com/browse/Clam...784&007=Search


Having the right tools and the experience allowed me to just get in and get it done.

I've thought about magnets, going in with the camera to see if i could spot the parts, flushing it out but i would be much more confident in dropping the pan. The possibility of missing a small piece that could end up back in the pump is not worth it. besides, making the cross memeber removeable makes sense to me and may prove usefull to others who are faced with the same problem. from all the reports on failed pumps,tensioners and lifters a solution other than pulling the motor is in order.
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:34 AM   #168
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You're right. Short cuts and easy way outs often come back to bite you in the ass later.
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:44 AM   #169
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You're right. Short cuts and easy way outs often come back to bite you in the ass later.
As far as the debris in the pan you're right. If I don't clean it out it will always be on my mind and most likely at some point will bite my ass. As far as the crossmember goes, it's a short cut that I'm confident with. I do have experience in chassis building and have built many motorcycle frames as well as a few car frames and components.
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Old 04-19-2013, 11:05 AM   #170
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Good to hear !
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Old 04-19-2013, 02:40 PM   #171
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I'm not happy with thae explanation. It would have to get extremely hot to allow that much expansion, where as the lifter is assembled both parts would get hot so the expansion between the two would not be that great, the valve springs pressure would also make it more difficult for the pin to just slide out and the pin would have to move sideways when the valvtrain motion is up and down. I'm not saying it's not possible, obviously it some how came out. It is also possible that the pin some how sheard and both ends came out but also seems kind on unlikely seeing there is no damage to the holes. Maybe if I can recover the pieces it will shed some light on the cause of failure. I also wish I was sure which happened first, lifter failure or pump failure.
the other possibility that comes to mind if the pin is grooved or otherwise and held in by internal spring pressure, the loss of oil pressure may have caused lifter/valve float at a lower rpm.
which may have caused the spring to reduce tension from excessive inertia caused by the float and subsequent excessive lash and allowing the pin to depart.
if you know why piston snap rings should have the opening at 12 and 6 oclock this would be something similar.

it will be interesting to see the condition of the pin and what is supposed to hold it in.
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Old 04-19-2013, 03:58 PM   #172
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Hey it's not an early 2010 anything! Those were just internet rumors stock Ls pumps have been failing since 1998!
Yes there have been NO L99 pumps reported. YES the flow more volume needed for the VVT and DOD. We L99'rs use 8qts of oil lol.
so do the LS3's...
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Old 04-19-2013, 04:14 PM   #173
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so do the LS3's...
Lmao your right! But your HHR is ......

This is big boy stuff, GO HOME lol
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Old 04-19-2013, 04:39 PM   #174
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Sorry to hear about your mishap.... The silver lining is that it would be nice to see this cross member Idea implemented and documented.

This issue with oil pumps sounds like a matter of when ...not if.

Every motor manufacturer seems to have drive train issues that revolve (no pun intended) around oil pressure and or quality. Years ago I remember very little in the way of drivetrain woes on many modded vehicles where it has now become common place..

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Old 04-19-2013, 07:33 PM   #175
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Ok everyone, THE VEDICT IS IN!!!!!

I can say with almost 100% certainty exactly what happened and when. I have a lot of info here that may be usefull so I'm going to make three posts so grab yourself a brew, sit back in your easy chair and relax a minute because I type slow.

A short story.

Picture this, my driveway has a stone wall on both sides and is on a fairly steep hill, my car is a little bit on the loud side lol, anyway I pulled into my driveway Sunday afternoon, as usual, my son hops out and opens the garage door he's right in front of my car, right as he is openning the door I thought I heard a little tap or clunk, with the exhaust echoing off the walls and the door opening it was muffled and not distintive, I asked my son, did you hear something, he said just the door, I pull in and go about my business. First thing in the morning I warm up my car, stop at DD and grab a coffee and putt on in to work (this is the only time I don't use my shifter in keep it in S) Right before I reach work I finish my coffee, hit the button and proceed to do my morning hole shots. Everything is fine as I aproach my shop the exhaust note changes and I glance down and see no oil pressure. I roll into my driveway and hear my top end clacking away. So here we are in this thread.

Stay tuned, next post is exactly what happened!!
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