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Camaro V8 LS3 / L99 Engine, Exhaust, and Bolt-Ons Bolt-Ons | Intakes | Exhaust

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Old 04-19-2013, 07:43 PM   #176
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Old 04-19-2013, 07:58 PM   #177
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[QUOTE=Mr pogo;6441817]if the pin was held in by a press in/interference fit and the lifter got hot from lack of lube, that would explain the lifter body expanding allowing the pin to come out and the lifter to seize in the bore.

This is close as to what happened but now how.

After dropping the pan and retrieving the broken pieces I have come to this conclusion and I am quite certain it's accurate.

I believe the problem was the result of a deffective lifter, NOT THE PUMP.

What I think happened was the pin in the lifter worked it's way out, most likely because of a misfit. When this happened is the tap or clunk I thought I heard. Because of the design of the lifter the roller is surrounded on all sides by the lifter body preventing it from falling out but allowing the needle bearings to start to fall out as they did they got ground up between the roller and cam, this caused the scuffing I mentiond that was on the cam lobe.It looks exactly like the scuffing on the pump rotor I pictured. On my putt to work nothing seemed unusuall because the valve was still openning and closing close to what it should have been. When I got on it the increased forces broke the thinner walls of the lifter allowing the needles and roller to spit out. The needle bearings that got destroyed got sucked up into the pump causing the pump failure. By this time the damage was done. The lifter was not seized in the bore from heat as someone mentioned. The reason it wouldn't come out is because the botton of the lifter had a couple of munged up edges from the beating it took,this resulted in the two scratches in the lifter bore caused by pulling the lifter with a lifter puller.

Next post has some useful info and what I ended up doing, I've got pictures so this may take a little while.
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:37 PM   #178
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Here are some pictures that will show how I came to this conclusion.

You can see that the holes on both sides of the lifter are in very good shape. the pin is also not broken although worn, the roller has been worn down from a little inder 3/4" to a little over 1/2". This could not have happened if the roller fell out right away. There is no way the pin could come out unless it came out sideways through one of the holes which is what leads me to belive it wasn't peened properly during manufacturing. Looking at the pictures of a good lifter you can see how the roller is surrounded by the lifter body preventing it from falling out even with a missing pin untill the lifter body broke. , obviously,with all the metal grindings floating around some got sucked up by the pump causing the rotors to geat scuffed up and causing the relief valve to hang open, this is what caused the no oil pressure condition. Surprisingly, the oil pump took quite a beating before it failed.


The next post is ,what I think, the most important. More pics so give me a minute.
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Old 04-19-2013, 09:04 PM   #179
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A few have mentioned trying to use a magnet to get all the broken pieces out of the oil pan, don't waste your time. The oil pan has a baffle and other areas which prevents using a magnet, flushing or any other method of cleaning other than removal, on top of that there is also a windage tray which can prevent broken parts from even getting into the pan, this was the case with me. Upon dropping the pan I couldn't find the pin, it was hung up ontop of the windage tray.

What I did as I mentioned I would do, was cut the cross member. This allowed me to drop the pan quite a bit but you still cannot remove it although if you unbolt the four bolts that hold the steering rack in place you can easily remove the pan. I did not do so only because I droppped the pan so far as to be able to remove the baffle and access every crack and crevice for a complete cleaning.

I made a template for the flanges that I will be welding in place to make the cross member removeable in the future. This will work out very well. The cross member has an angle to it on both sides which works out perfectly. Because of the angle it will allow the removeable center section to be installed without any gap at all with no banging or prying it into place. Why GM didn't do something like this is beyond me. I may have time this weekend to program the flanges, if I get it done when I get the car back up on the rack I will take detailed photo's of how to position and weld the flanges in place for anyone who wishes to go this route in the event pan removal is needed and you don't want to pull the freakin' motor.

You will see in the photo's the baffle, also notice in the front of the pan, on either side the "wings which are part of the pan's casting, there are two more on the rear of the pan as well, this prevents access to these areas without removing the pan.
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Last edited by CFD; 04-19-2013 at 09:27 PM.
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Old 04-19-2013, 09:13 PM   #180
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By the way, I'm a little bummed with the damage to the cam lobe. I measured the lift in comparison to one that was not damaged and it is within a few thousands but because of it's roughness it will probably accelerate lifter wear. Where as they are a roller lifter not a flat tappet I think it will be ok for a while. With that said the car is running real strong again, even managed a few small hole shots on the way home. Didn't notice anything abnormal with the missing cross member but I will be installing it once the fabrication is done. The last word of advice, don't trip over a step ladder,knocking it over and putting a dent on top of you fender
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Old 04-19-2013, 10:37 PM   #181
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One of the best reads I've had in a long time! Thankyou
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Old 04-20-2013, 06:30 AM   #182
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One of the best reads I've had in a long time! Thankyou
I'm glad my misfortune brought you pleasure. lol

I had to figure out what happened as the broken parts I initialy had to examine left to many if's and what's.

The missing pieces in the pan and on the windage tray were the missing pieces to the puzzle.

I suppose the L99 guys can relax a bit more knowing the blown pump was a result not a cause.
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Old 04-20-2013, 07:43 AM   #183
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I'm glad my misfortune brought you pleasure. lol

I had to figure out what happened as the broken parts I initialy had to examine left to many if's and what's.

The missing pieces in the pan and on the windage tray were the missing pieces to the puzzle.

I suppose the L99 guys can relax a bit more knowing the blown pump was a result not a cause.
haha...it was good you looked. How many actually would? Thanks for sharing and sorry about your fender.
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Old 04-20-2013, 07:55 AM   #184
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haha...it was good you looked. How many actually would? Thanks for sharing and sorry about your fender.

It's just the way I think. When designing parts and products, especially when I was big into the racing scene,most of the parts I made were to improve on something that failed but before you can make an improvement, you must first know what you're improving on, I always try to figure out what happened and why.

I'm hoping a dent wizzard will get it out, if not, a paint job is on the horizon anyways, i'm just waiting to finish all the stuff I'm doing to my car.
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Old 04-20-2013, 08:35 AM   #185
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Damn junk LS oil pumps, you cant even run a disintegrated lifter through them without them failing.Thanks for taking the time to document this process. Very interesting reading, nice to see someone get to the bottom of something like this, rather than making internet based assumptions.
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Old 04-20-2013, 09:35 AM   #186
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I'm glad my misfortune brought you pleasure. lol

I had to figure out what happened as the broken parts I initialy had to examine left to many if's and what's.

The missing pieces in the pan and on the windage tray were the missing pieces to the puzzle.

I suppose the L99 guys can relax a bit more knowing the blown pump was a result not a cause.
Lol I didn't mean it that way!

L99'ers can breath easier this morning lol.
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Old 04-20-2013, 09:42 AM   #187
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I am not looking for an excuse. I am looking for rational. When one of the above posters has a pump that has already done 120,000 + miles, the intrinsic design flaw theory looses some credibility.
[QUOTE=CFD;6444763]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr pogo View Post
if the pin was held in by a press in/interference fit and the lifter got hot from lack of lube, that would explain the lifter body expanding allowing the pin to come out and the lifter to seize in the bore.

This is close as to what happened but now how.

After dropping the pan and retrieving the broken pieces I have come to this conclusion and I am quite certain it's accurate.

I believe the problem was the result of a deffective lifter, NOT THE PUMP.

What I think happened was the pin in the lifter worked it's way out, most likely because of a misfit. When this happened is the tap or clunk I thought I heard. Because of the design of the lifter the roller is surrounded on all sides by the lifter body preventing it from falling out but allowing the needle bearings to start to fall out as they did they got ground up between the roller and cam, this caused the scuffing I mentiond that was on the cam lobe.It looks exactly like the scuffing on the pump rotor I pictured. On my putt to work nothing seemed unusuall because the valve was still openning and closing close to what it should have been. When I got on it the increased forces broke the thinner walls of the lifter allowing the needles and roller to spit out. The needle bearings that got destroyed got sucked up into the pump causing the pump failure. By this time the damage was done. The lifter was not seized in the bore from heat as someone mentioned. The reason it wouldn't come out is because the botton of the lifter had a couple of munged up edges from the beating it took,this resulted in the two scratches in the lifter bore caused by pulling the lifter with a lifter puller.

Next post has some useful info and what I ended up doing, I've got pictures so this may take a little while.

CFD, That's what I call rational with a capital R. Thank you for taking the time and for your effort to analyze the event and catalog your findings regarding cause and effect.
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Old 04-20-2013, 12:21 PM   #188
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Lol I didn't mean it that way!

L99'ers can breath easier this morning lol.
[QUOTE=2SSCAMARO;6446319]
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i know, just having some chuckles.


CFD, That's what I call rational with a capital R. Thank you for taking the time and for your effort to analyze the event and catalog your findings regarding cause and effect.

The pices just didn't add up right and knowing not guessing is important. Many times people give opinions but that's all they are untill you have the facts.


I'm programing the flanges for the cross member right now but as I always say I hate working around other peoples shit and this case is no different. The cross member is a formed and welded piece of crap so dimensions are all over the place. It will still work perfectly but it would be better if the part was a bit more uniform.
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Old 04-20-2013, 12:49 PM   #189
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Consider this, what if the lifter failure happened during a quarter mile pass or if the incident happened to another person who continued to drive the vehicle much longer than you did subsequent to the loss of oil pressure. The damage could have been so bad to many of the internals that trying to determine what failure occurred first would be much more difficult, if not impossible in circumstances where the whole engine was grenaded. Your attentiveness, quick response, and desire for knowledge of the root cause all made it possible this time.
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Old 04-20-2013, 01:01 PM   #190
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Consider this, what if the lifter failure happened during a quarter mile pass or if the incident happened to another person who continued to drive the vehicle much longer than you did subsequent to the loss of oil pressure. The damage could have been so bad to many of the internals that trying to determine what failure occurred first would be much more difficult, if not impossible in circumstances where the whole engine was grenaded. Your attentiveness, quick response, and desire for knowledge of the root cause all made it possible this time.
You mean I got lucky/ lol
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Old 04-20-2013, 01:13 PM   #191
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congrats on the diagnosis, fwiw I have heard of the same catastrophic roller lifter failures from guys who ran Comp Cam lifters in LT1s over the years.

also beware of floor jack handles that are spring loaded to flip down and ding your hood lol
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Old 04-20-2013, 01:34 PM   #192
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congrats on the diagnosis, fwiw I have heard of the same catastrophic roller lifter failures from guys who ran Comp Cam lifters in LT1s over the years.

also beware of floor jack handles that are spring loaded to flip down and ding your hood lol
so much for quality control !!
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Old 04-20-2013, 01:59 PM   #193
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You mean I got lucky/ lol
That's lucky with a capital "L"

Lol
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Old 04-20-2013, 06:34 PM   #194
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Had a chance to work on the crossmember. I machined four flanges that will weld to the cut out section of the cross member and the two ends still on the car. As soon as I get a chance I will fit two flanges to the car, if everything fits ok I will weld it up and now have a removeable cross member.

The 1st picture is all the components, the 2nd is what the midsection will look like when welded and the 3rd picture is how it will be when installed.

I'm glad I went this route as if for any reason my pan needs to be dropped in the future it will be a relatively easy job.
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Old 04-20-2013, 11:47 PM   #195
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mine just went out tonight , 19k i started to do it when i done my cam but , lazyness of ordering parts .
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Old 04-21-2013, 06:48 AM   #196
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WTF!! Sorry to hear that bud!! Lol I told you so lol

JK bud, hope you get it up n runnin soon.
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Old 04-21-2013, 09:13 AM   #197
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mine just went out tonight , 19k i started to do it when i done my cam but , lazyness of ordering parts .
That really sucks, believe me, I know!!!!
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Old 04-27-2013, 05:10 PM   #198
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Man I'm bummed. Just when I thought everyhting was fine I lost another lifter. The #6 cylinder exhaust, same one I just replaced. Somethings going on in there I must have missed but at this point not sure what. Thing that sucks is it took my cam with it this time. It wasn't the pin coming, the roller feels free but obviously it wasn't rollin'
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Old 04-27-2013, 05:57 PM   #199
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Dam it man,that looks awful nasty! Hope you get things straightened out!
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Old 04-27-2013, 06:02 PM   #200
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Oh that sucks SO BAD!!!!

You may hate me for saying this, but you now have metal all over the engine and likely lodged into the piston skirts. You might want to explore the possibility of taking this sucker apart, and thoroughly cleaning and inspecting EVERYTHING. No joke.

This should be treated no different than a flat tappet cam failure. Please consider doing it.

P.S. I really dig your removable crossmember. Awesome. You are such a man. hehe
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