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Old 03-05-2013, 11:12 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Fraxum View Post
You lucky dog! You probably got the best deal on ordering a new SS ever. Using your numbers, you could buy my complete stripper 1LE/Z for $40,000.

I hear you about the options. They are nice but add a little weight. I have a 2SS with the sunroof which I enjoy. But it is drag with a helmet. The rest of the 2SS gingerbread and the really outrageous price for the RS treatment have turned me off to the expense for what you get. I do like a good sounding audio system, but you can do better than the BA system for less. I also prefer cloth over the slippier vinyl/leather 2SS seats. I will say my wife would miss the seat heaters. But that is no too hard to add.

I might add Nav to my 1LE/Z, at least that is not as expensive as in many other cars.

You are right about the card top off. So to get the really great price on the 1LE/Z we will have to wait until Jan/Feb 2014 when the next round of GM offers come in.

One other thing, on my dream 1LE/Z I chose the centrifugal FI option because a 500 RWHP stock displacement non FI LS3 loses some driveability. Also I have read too many horror stories about Head/Cam projects gone bad, so a mild FI application seems safest to me. I read over and over 500-550 RWHP FI is very reliable, fewer horror stories there. I am however very gullible when it comes to more power.

Are you planning on a build thread? I will be following. My next Camaro can be early next year according to my CFO. Only dreaming for now.
Thanks, but I don't think I am the luckiest when it comes to pricing. I just read a thread in the last week or so where someone got something like $7000 or so off with his GM Business Card. I guess the redemption rules must be different for the Business Card; I've never researched it but that is a NICE discount.

I think a H/C approach can be just as reliable as F/I if the proper approach is taken. I think a problem many have is they want the sound of a nice cam so they purchase on that factor alone without putting together a complete package. With a proper H/C setup, the heads, cam, intake, exhaust, gear ratio and desired performance envelope are all put together into a comprehensive package to work together. Granted, that is where F/I is easier--put an S/C on with a tune and the other factors aren't as big of a consideration as with a proper H/C package. In other words, an S/C will work well with an otherwise untouched or modified car. To work properly a H/C car will need the proper cam and head modifications to work with the rest of the car. I think that is where we see horror stories--put too aggressive of a cam into an otherwise stock L99 (and stock geared) car and you lose idle quality, bottom end torque (important on a 4000lb car); that car would be no fun to drive and most likely a disappointment.

I think the 1LE is an ideal platform to set up as a H/C car. The improved gearing is already there and the car is nicely balanced at its stock weight.

I will do a build thread but I'm still in the steep part of the learning curve. I have quite a bit of experience building well-performing classic cars in the manner I described above. I've left my new cars stock in the past and toyed with my older cars. Now I'm reversing that approach a bit as I now have an original 79 T/A I can't mess with without hurting its value, so I'm going to put my efforts into modifying the 1LE. While the concepts are the same, obviously there are differences that I have to become familiar with and learn. For that, I'll turn to the experts here on the forum; you're never too old to learn!
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Old 03-05-2013, 03:46 PM   #19
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It's not just about the warranty. It's about the durability. GM tests their engines with engine dynos, and road testing, and must meet durability standards. The LS3 was never designed or tested for a supercharger, so you are on your own. It can get expensive blowing up engines. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

Also the supercharger is going to add weight to the front of the car, and the suspension was not tuned for that weight. You are likely to get more understeer.

Michael


Sure adding just a supercharger to a 1LE will make power like a ZL1. But you will upset the balance of the car.... so you fix that. At a minimum by adding new tires...$$$. (305 goodyears to match the front?) But to make the car more neutral with the added power a change of the sway bars is more likely going to be needed....$$$. So now the car is handling right and has the power or more than a ZL1. So you go to the track.... clutch dies.... no problem you added a ZR1 clutch.... $$$. Then you break the axles so you put in gforce or DSS 1400 HP axles.... more $$$. Then the rear breaks so you put a ZL1 rear or 9" .... major $$$. Transmission goes....$$$. All with no warranty. So you get the car running fast..... but the car's aero produces lift making the car scary at the higher speeds it now can run at so you added the complete ZL1 aero package to get downforce.... more $$$. Then are the brakes up to the task?.... CTSV/ZL1 front breaks..... more $$$.

Sure a 1LE with a supercharger on paper looks to be a better deal but one major failure and the savings are gone. If you drive the car hard it will be a matter of time. With a ZL1 you get stronger parts and a warranty for 5 years on and off the track. On a ZL1 add a cold air intake for under $400 and add 35 proven HP. So that 80 HP advantage becomes 45 HP and the ZL1 still has a warranty, mag ride, better aero and is fully loaded even as a base model. (To be fair you should compare a 2SS 1LE to a ZL1) Also when you decide to trade it in after a few years.... ZL1 will be worth a ton more than a modded 1LE. The 1LE will be worth what a stock 1LE is worth to a dealer... maybe more if you find private buyer who is willing to pay more.

The 1LE is a great option package but value to $$$ the ZL1 is a far better deal if you dive deeper than skidpad and HP numbers.

One more thing.... you can buy a ZL1 under MSRP. I did back in September and they are more common now. Just like the 1LE deals can be struck. So at MSRP ZL1 Vs under MSRP 1LE....
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:44 PM   #20
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Sure adding just a supercharger to a 1LE will make power like a ZL1. But you will upset the balance of the car.... so you fix that. At a minimum by adding new tires...$$$. (305 goodyears to match the front?) But to make the car more neutral with the added power a change of the sway bars is more likely going to be needed....$$$. So now the car is handling right and has the power or more than a ZL1. So you go to the track.... clutch dies.... no problem you added a ZR1 clutch.... $$$. Then you break the axles so you put in gforce or DSS 1400 HP axles.... more $$$. Then the rear breaks so you put a ZL1 rear or 9" .... major $$$. Transmission goes....$$$. All with no warranty. So you get the car running fast..... but the car's aero produces lift making the car scary at the higher speeds it now can run at so you added the complete ZL1 aero package to get downforce.... more $$$. Then are the brakes up to the task?.... CTSV/ZL1 front breaks..... more $$$.

Sure a 1LE with a supercharger on paper looks to be a better deal but one major failure and the savings are gone. If you drive the car hard it will be a matter of time. With a ZL1 you get stronger parts and a warranty for 5 years on and off the track. On a ZL1 add a cold air intake for under $400 and add 35 proven HP. So that 80 HP advantage becomes 45 HP and the ZL1 still has a warranty, mag ride, better aero and is fully loaded even as a base model. (To be fair you should compare a 2SS 1LE to a ZL1) Also when you decide to trade it in after a few years.... ZL1 will be worth a ton more than a modded 1LE. The 1LE will be worth what a stock 1LE is worth to a dealer... maybe more if you find private buyer who is willing to pay more.

The 1LE is a great option package but value to $$$ the ZL1 is a far better deal if you dive deeper than skidpad and HP numbers.

One more thing.... you can buy a ZL1 under MSRP. I did back in September and they are more common now. Just like the 1LE deals can be struck. So at MSRP ZL1 Vs under MSRP 1LE....
ain't that a punch in the face! You are correct though.

My thought is the 1LE is meant to be an alternative to the ZL1 by being NA. Not a can do "anything" ZL1 clone, but a master of one thing...tracking. It does need a little more power and then brakes to be perfect, but then it would be a Z**.
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Old 03-05-2013, 06:33 PM   #21
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Yea, usually, but if you keep your eyes open you can find deals. This thread was $6,000 but it looks like the price was bumped to $6,500 for the last few.
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...=252551&page=2
Even AT $7,000 you are still under $44,000 total. An easy $10K under most ZL1s you can find.
And don't forget your install fees.
Don't get me wrong, you could do it under for what a ZL1 will cost, but you won't have the ZL1 mag ride and other little items that make a ZL1 a ZL1.
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:42 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by BlackinBlack View Post


Sure adding just a supercharger to a 1LE will make power like a ZL1. But you will upset the balance of the car.... so you fix that. At a minimum by adding new tires...$$$. (305 goodyears to match the front?) But to make the car more neutral with the added power a change of the sway bars is more likely going to be needed....$$$. So now the car is handling right and has the power or more than a ZL1. So you go to the track.... clutch dies.... no problem you added a ZR1 clutch.... $$$. Then you break the axles so you put in gforce or DSS 1400 HP axles.... more $$$. Then the rear breaks so you put a ZL1 rear or 9" .... major $$$. Transmission goes....$$$. All with no warranty. So you get the car running fast..... but the car's aero produces lift making the car scary at the higher speeds it now can run at so you added the complete ZL1 aero package to get downforce.... more $$$. Then are the brakes up to the task?.... CTSV/ZL1 front breaks..... more $$$.

Sure a 1LE with a supercharger on paper looks to be a better deal but one major failure and the savings are gone. If you drive the car hard it will be a matter of time. With a ZL1 you get stronger parts and a warranty for 5 years on and off the track. On a ZL1 add a cold air intake for under $400 and add 35 proven HP. So that 80 HP advantage becomes 45 HP and the ZL1 still has a warranty, mag ride, better aero and is fully loaded even as a base model. (To be fair you should compare a 2SS 1LE to a ZL1) Also when you decide to trade it in after a few years.... ZL1 will be worth a ton more than a modded 1LE. The 1LE will be worth what a stock 1LE is worth to a dealer... maybe more if you find private buyer who is willing to pay more.

The 1LE is a great option package but value to $$$ the ZL1 is a far better deal if you dive deeper than skidpad and HP numbers.

One more thing.... you can buy a ZL1 under MSRP. I did back in September and they are more common now. Just like the 1LE deals can be struck. So at MSRP ZL1 Vs under MSRP 1LE....
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Old 03-06-2013, 09:28 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Michael2000 View Post
It's not just about the warranty. It's about the durability. GM tests their engines with engine dynos, and road testing, and must meet durability standards. The LS3 was never designed or tested for a supercharger, so you are on your own. It can get expensive blowing up engines. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

Also the supercharger is going to add weight to the front of the car, and the suspension was not tuned for that weight. You are likely to get more understeer.

Michael
I agree with you about the testing, but there are many FI L99 and LS3s running around at over 500 RWHP for lots of miles with no problems. And 75 pounds (centrifugal) will not make the 1LE understeer noticeably any more than it already does. There are already several FI 1LEs owners here who have not mentioned any deterioration in handling. An extra 100+ rwhp makes any car feel much lighter.
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Old 03-06-2013, 09:50 PM   #24
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Thanks, but I don't think I am the luckiest when it comes to pricing. I just read a thread in the last week or so where someone got something like $7000 or so off with his GM Business Card. I guess the redemption rules must be different for the Business Card; I've never researched it but that is a NICE discount.

I think a H/C approach can be just as reliable as F/I if the proper approach is taken. I think a problem many have is they want the sound of a nice cam so they purchase on that factor alone without putting together a complete package. With a proper H/C setup, the heads, cam, intake, exhaust, gear ratio and desired performance envelope are all put together into a comprehensive package to work together. Granted, that is where F/I is easier--put an S/C on with a tune and the other factors aren't as big of a consideration as with a proper H/C package. In other words, an S/C will work well with an otherwise untouched or modified car. To work properly a H/C car will need the proper cam and head modifications to work with the rest of the car. I think that is where we see horror stories--put too aggressive of a cam into an otherwise stock L99 (and stock geared) car and you lose idle quality, bottom end torque (important on a 4000lb car); that car would be no fun to drive and most likely a disappointment.

I think the 1LE is an ideal platform to set up as a H/C car. The improved gearing is already there and the car is nicely balanced at its stock weight.

I will do a build thread but I'm still in the steep part of the learning curve. I have quite a bit of experience building well-performing classic cars in the manner I described above. I've left my new cars stock in the past and toyed with my older cars. Now I'm reversing that approach a bit as I now have an original 79 T/A I can't mess with without hurting its value, so I'm going to put my efforts into modifying the 1LE. While the concepts are the same, obviously there are differences that I have to become familiar with and learn. For that, I'll turn to the experts here on the forum; you're never too old to learn!
The best part of modding a new car is none of the bolts are rusty! And i think you will enjoy how easy the Camaro is to work on. Lots of room in this big chassis.

And you are right about a well planned H/C combo. It can be reliable and fun. But most importantly the work needs to performed by someone who knows exactly what they are doing. You will be moving the power band up a bit with less low end torque. A centrifugal charger provides the biggest boost at the big end, but loses no low end torque.

One thing I have learned about modding a new is that you want to mostly add things you can take off and sell if you decide to change cars. I spent a good chunk of money upgrading my bushings that I wish I did not do now as i contemplate a 2014 1LE. Although I have enjoyed less wheelhop and rear stepout with this mod. The rest of my chassis mods will be showing up in the forum market.

Even though I will most likely get that 2014 1LE (if it still exists, there are 2014 changes) but I have my eye on the next gen Camaro, Mustang, and Barracuda.
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Old 03-06-2013, 09:57 PM   #25
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I dont see how the FI could be safer on a NA designed engine. For me, heads and cam all day on a LS3 Rather than FI, but Im a NA guy lol
H/C combos are just as safe if well done. But there are a number of horror stories here from a botched cam install and/or a poor cam choice. This seems more common than mild FI projects gone bad. This could be just my perception. Plus I can remove my FI and sell it if i decide to get another car.
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Old 03-06-2013, 10:11 PM   #26
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Sure adding just a supercharger to a 1LE will make power like a ZL1. But you will upset the balance of the car.... so you fix that. At a minimum by adding new tires...$$$. (305 goodyears to match the front?) But to make the car more neutral with the added power a change of the sway bars is more likely going to be needed....$$$. So now the car is handling right and has the power or more than a ZL1. So you go to the track.... clutch dies.... no problem you added a ZR1 clutch.... $$$. Then you break the axles so you put in gforce or DSS 1400 HP axles.... more $$$. Then the rear breaks so you put a ZL1 rear or 9" .... major $$$. Transmission goes....$$$. All with no warranty. So you get the car running fast..... but the car's aero produces lift making the car scary at the higher speeds it now can run at so you added the complete ZL1 aero package to get downforce.... more $$$. Then are the brakes up to the task?.... CTSV/ZL1 front breaks..... more $$$.

Sure a 1LE with a supercharger on paper looks to be a better deal but one major failure and the savings are gone. If you drive the car hard it will be a matter of time. With a ZL1 you get stronger parts and a warranty for 5 years on and off the track. On a ZL1 add a cold air intake for under $400 and add 35 proven HP. So that 80 HP advantage becomes 45 HP and the ZL1 still has a warranty, mag ride, better aero and is fully loaded even as a base model. (To be fair you should compare a 2SS 1LE to a ZL1) Also when you decide to trade it in after a few years.... ZL1 will be worth a ton more than a modded 1LE. The 1LE will be worth what a stock 1LE is worth to a dealer... maybe more if you find private buyer who is willing to pay more.

The 1LE is a great option package but value to $$$ the ZL1 is a far better deal if you dive deeper than skidpad and HP numbers.

One more thing.... you can buy a ZL1 under MSRP. I did back in September and they are more common now. Just like the 1LE deals can be struck. So at MSRP ZL1 Vs under MSRP 1LE....
The bottom line for me is I do not want to spend $50+K on a car. And for the purposes I will use it for, there would be very little, if any difference, in performance from a 1LE/Z and a ZL1. That use would be spirited street driving, the drag strip, an occasional track day, and maybe autocross. What I lose is my drive train warranty and a good ride when I do not feel sporty.

At ten tenths of the cars performance you have a point. Few of us go there.

With all that said, I would rather have a ZL1.
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Old 03-06-2013, 10:15 PM   #27
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And don't forget your install fees.
Don't get me wrong, you could do it under for what a ZL1 will cost, but you won't have the ZL1 mag ride and other little items that make a ZL1 a ZL1.
$7,000 would cover install and tune. I have a price right now at $6,500 and no sales tax. I would spend that extra $500 (or maybe $750) on self installed long tubes. They would be on before I go in to get the FI installed.
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Old 06-11-2013, 11:47 PM   #28
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Sorry for the late reply...just came across this thread. In theory, it sounds good, and I may have come out ahead if I started with the base SS. However, for what I spent on my 2SS, all my mods and finally the supercharger, I could've just bought the ZL1. And yes, a good blower installed by a good shop is going to run you more than 6K.

Here's the way I look at it, though. Yes, I'd take a ZL1, but I think my car is at least as much fun. It has at least the same whp, but it's got all my custom mods. You can't just go to a Chevy dealer and purchase my car off the lot. It's the way I wanted it, with the gears I wanted and everything else. So I'm a happy camper
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Old 02-05-2014, 09:00 PM   #29
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Old 02-05-2014, 10:04 PM   #30
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Redline

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My 1LE (2SS; RS; NPP; premium audio) add the chiller kit; drop springs; tint; full TVS build with all supporting mods; parts and labor and tuning; all other small cosmetic mods etc....my build is easy 2-3K less than than a BASE ZL1....200lbs lighter and has 75-80 more WHP on a fairly conservative tune.

By conservative I mean:
-boost is 10lbs but sometimes 11 and touches 12lbs in cold weather
-AF is lean...pretty much 10 until high RPMs
-we lowered stock redline to 6400 bc of boost levels

*disclaimer...I'm getting retuned in a couple few weeks to improve AF (11.6ish)and possibly lower boost and still maybe get more performance/better #s

At the end of the day...I WANTED the ZL1 bad but IMO I'm way better off for the money (minus the warranty going bye bye)
You said you lowered the redline to 6400 due to Boost levels. What is the stock redline, i thought it was around 6400.
I have a stock 1LE and the only thing I hate is the redline which seems to be around 6400. I would prefer the engine could approach 6800 to 7000 rpm.

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Old 02-05-2014, 10:30 PM   #31
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You said you lowered the redline to 6400 due to Boost levels. What is the stock redline, i thought it was around 6400.
I have a stock 1LE and the only thing I hate is the redline which seems to be around 6400. I would prefer the engine could approach 6800 to 7000 rpm.

Jim
Curious why you'd want redline at 7k or so. When I've dynod I've seen a rapid decrease in rwhp starting at 6400. Between 6200k and 7k rpm your probably looking at a steady 50 rwhp loss. Peak seems to be between 5500 and 6200 followed by a rapid drop off
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Old 02-05-2014, 10:33 PM   #32
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You said you lowered the redline to 6400 due to Boost levels. What is the stock redline, i thought it was around 6400.
I have a stock 1LE and the only thing I hate is the redline which seems to be around 6400. I would prefer the engine could approach 6800 to 7000 rpm.

Jim
LS3s peg the limiter @ 6600 rpms. The tach might not keep up when accelerating, though...
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Old 02-06-2014, 12:27 PM   #33
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I should have been clearer

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Curious why you'd want redline at 7k or so. When I've dynod I've seen a rapid decrease in rwhp starting at 6400. Between 6200k and 7k rpm your probably looking at a steady 50 rwhp loss. Peak seems to be between 5500 and 6200 followed by a rapid drop off

Yes the way the LS3 is now and after many HP improvements the power does fall off after 6300 or less.

I would like my build when I do it to not only increase HP, but shift the curve to achieve good HP up to 6800 t0 7000 RPM.
I personally believe if you can keep making power longer and shift later then you will often have better acceleration overall especially in the lower gears.

I believe that is one of the advantages the Mustang has over our cars.

It also seems that if I don't shift when the heads up display hits no more than 6200 it goes into governing mode. Annoying.

Just my opinion

Would one of those shift lights help?

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Old 02-06-2014, 12:29 PM   #34
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The biggest problem you have with a PD Force Induction 1LE is the traction with so much low end torque. The car becomes extremely tail happy. Even with traction control fully on, the car will step out in 3rd gear in warm weather around mild corners on the power. You can go about 30-40 degrees rotated out of line it happens so fast, before the traction control catches you. What you also get with the ZL1 is a properly functioning traction control system as well that is more suited to the power.
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