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Old 03-07-2013, 12:51 PM   #1
DuskSS
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Why on earth would going N/A be considered a waste of money and time

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonpope2003
Um why would you waste money on a cam if you were not going to do the rest?

The TVS is nice.. but I'm going to be putting out more than it on the LS3 with the LR package which was still over 2k cheaper than a TVS and install.
And then when I bolt that TVS or ECS on next year will be well into the 700s

I know who he is but I prefer how us Southern boys play..
LMR and LR for life


Oh and putting over 500 Hp without forced induction or Turbo....

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Why would anyone think this?
He said higher up in this thread Jannetty Racing says N/A it is a waste of time and money.

I don't follow his logic, sorry in my time you always built the engine before going FI to get the best results. a breathing engine is far superior to bolting on a SC/Turbo and have it suffocate through stock heads and valve train and exhaust.

Down here the shops seem to agree with me.
LMR and Lethal and many others all prefer to get the cam and heads in first to get the most out of it before going FI.

What are y'alls feelings on this?
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:55 PM   #2
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We've seen some pretty sick N/A LS motor set ups. Some well into the 8s. Really to us, it depends on the end goal for the car. If you are looking for 1000+ HP it's hard to argue a turbo set up. If you want 500-550 rwhp you can drive everyday and not worry about blowing up at the track, a nicely built N/A motor is a great way to go. You can pull 500-600 rwhp out of a bolt on blower car pretty easy but one ruff outing at the track might have you dumping more money into your motor! For some, just having a blown car is king....for others taking down a blown car while being all motor is the way to go. To each his own as they say.
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:58 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juiced1 View Post
We've seen some pretty sick N/A LS motor set ups. Some well into the 8s.
agreed 100%
and it makes a hell of a base if you build with FI as the end result as well.
blower cam, low compression etc.
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Old 03-07-2013, 12:59 PM   #4
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One word DRIVEABLITLY.

Not implying that going NA is a waste of $$ but if you want high HP AND the ability to comfortably drive it around town, FI is a better way to go.
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:01 PM   #5
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Nothing wrong with NA at all.....

Our most famous one back when NOBODY had 429s.....hehe.

Enjoy,
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:02 PM   #6
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It depends on how you look at it. Most people would rather bolt on the instant power of the supercharger and see what happens...the engine may last 50K miles? maybe 75K? If it blows, so what, you got your mileage out of it and then build a better one but you still have the supercharger you can bolt on top of the built engine and get another 75K? The driveability also isn't affected by supercharging. Who is gonna have their car that long anyway? This is an instant gratification world we live in, and in the short run its cheaper and less labor intensive.
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:03 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonpope2003 View Post
agreed 100%
and it makes a hell of a base if you build with FI as the end result as well.
blower cam, low compression etc.
One big problem with your train of thought. A car built for NA high HP isn't going to work as well with FI. You build for the route you want to take. High HP NA requires a completely different cam and increasing the compression. FI likes lower compression and a different profiled cam.
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:04 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axis View Post
One word DRIVEABLITLY.

Not implying that going NA is a waste of $$ but if you want high HP AND the ability to comfortably drive it around town, FI is a better way to go.
just as comfortable on a cammed car as I am in a blown car...
especially with a tuner that knows thier stuff.
NF has great driveabilty as does the LMR street cams.
especially with a stick since I don't have to tolerate a huge stall converter.
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:07 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axis View Post
One big problem with your train of thought. A car built for NA high HP isn't going to work as well with FI. You build for the route you want to take. High HP NA requires a completely different cam and increasing the compression. FI likes lower compression and a different profiled cam.
Tell that to the Night Fury which is the direction I'm going with Lethal heads.
doesn't need massive compression to build very very high HP and torque.
they have been getting right at 500 with just the cam and supporting mods.
with heads even higher.

it is actually a blower grind and works very well NA as well.
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:09 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonpope2003 View Post
just as comfortable on a cammed car as I am in a blown car...
especially with a tuner that knows thier stuff.
NF has great driveabilty as does the LMR street cams.
especially with a stick since I don't have to tolerate a huge stall converter.
That's a matter of opinion and yours is skewed. I've driven big cammed cars and they drive nothing like stock. I don't care who your tuner is, getting a big enough cam to make 500+whp idle well and have good street manners is impossible. A FI car drives completely like stock until you get on it. There's no comparison for daily driving.
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:17 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikes SS View Post
It depends on how you look at it. Most people would rather bolt on the instant power of the supercharger and see what happens...the engine may last 50K miles? maybe 75K? If it blows, so what, you got your mileage out of it and then build a better one but you still have the supercharger you can bolt on top of the built engine and get another 75K? The driveability also isn't affected by supercharging. Who is gonna have their car that long anyway? This is an instant gratification world we live in, and in the short run its cheaper and less labor intensive.
50k-75k? um I've had drag raced heavy cammed cars last well into the 150K range with ease if taken care of.
and at that point you usually want more HP anyway so rip it out and stroke/bore or whatever.

BTW just so you know the 12 hours labor to even put on a TVS ( the easiest one to install) was just as expensive as the cam/heads/exhaust labor.
and then the supercharger itself is more expensive than everything I'm doing and will have the same amount of HP and possibly more had I just bolted a TVS on.

My long range goals are for Lethal to have the car back next year to throw a SC on it then finish the suspension for 650+ hp.
So the cam and the heads are already going to be done.


I dunno both are expensive and both end up in the same result.
but nothing draws attention even away from ZL1s than a cammed nasty SS rolling in. so a +1 just for the sound LOL.
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Old 03-07-2013, 01:21 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axis View Post
That's a matter of opinion and yours is skewed. I've driven big cammed cars and they drive nothing like stock. I don't care who your tuner is, getting a big enough cam to make 500+whp idle well and have good street manners is impossible. A FI car drives completely like stock until you get on it. There's no comparison for daily driving.
who wants stock?
I never said it would drive like stock and I sure as hell wouldnt drop huge funds for a stock feeling car. I plan on ripping every inch of stock suspension out of the car and going pedders anyway. it's gonna ride like a gocart when it's over.

I want a muscle car. I don't want a Cadillac if I did I would have bought a CTSV instead.

I want a cammed monster that commands attention when it rolls up.

and I've driven an NF Camaro and they are damned easy to drive for a large cammed car and are very docile until hammered.
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Old 03-07-2013, 02:04 PM   #13
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I personally don't care either way what the customer wants to do. I'm talking generally about street cars/occasional race cars, not something track dedicated.

If someone has the cash and wants to do the blower first, great. That's a HUGE gain right off the bat and really lights up the car for sure. You can make amazing numbers NOW and always go back and add an intake, headers, cam, heads later to get even more power.

Or, maybe some people don't want to blow $6k+ right off the bat and want to go the n/a route first. That's fine too. It's cheaper, and you get to gain power in stages...so you do intake and a full exhaust - that's a nice gain. Get used to that, add a cam. Get used to that, add some heads. Now you're really power hungry so you save your pennies and go forced induction.

Either way the end result is the same and I don't think one way is right or wrong. It's all about what makes YOU happy and fits your budget.

My 2010 Camaro is heads/cam and makes right around 500rwhp. I'd like a blower some day, but for now this set up is great for me.

My 2006 Silverado is blower only (TVS 1900), who knows what it makes (never dyno'd). That's a daily driver type vehicle, I don't want less gas mileage or to hear a loud exhaust on a full size truck so the blower alone is perfect and fits my bill.

My 2007 Trailblazer SS has both. It's heads, cam, and a TVS 2300. It sounds nasty and makes a ton of power.

I'm happy with all three as they are
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Old 03-07-2013, 02:09 PM   #14
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Quote:
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That's a matter of opinion and yours is skewed. I've driven big cammed cars and they drive nothing like stock. I don't care who your tuner is, getting a big enough cam to make 500+whp idle well and have good street manners is impossible.
Disagree. If you're close to NC I will be glad to take you for a ride in my 500rwhp (ok, 496 but don't call me out) car that drives like stock.

Now, if you over cam it, or your tuner isn't so hot, hell yes a cammed car is a huge pain in the ass. But these days with the LSx's being so mod-friendly, making a 500rwhp daily driver that doesn't buck you off is no big thing at all.
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Old 03-07-2013, 02:12 PM   #15
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i like FI but, our cars hard heavy anyway if u just wanting to say hey i got a 1000 hp car then , go FI. but i would rather say i have a fast car then a high hp car. not sayin u cant do both. but in my eyes i think having a good bolton and h/c car and the right setup is pretty fun. tht way ur not adding a lot more weight to fight. Put u a 25 lb bottle in the trunk and another 10 for noids and plate. have fun. nothing wrong or a waste of money at all. I know a few cars in my area running 9's with n/a ls motors. drive them all the time.
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Old 03-07-2013, 02:34 PM   #16
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Some shops and car owners like FI, specifically positive displacement superchargers, because they are consistent, and less invasive of an install. Plus there is a general tendency with heavier late model cars to go blower. Part of that is also due to the lack of tuning software for Chryslers, and there being few options for cams in the Mustangs.

Other than folks going with really huge cams and not understanding the potential drivebility issues and need to change other stuff (more converter, gear), NA has always been a killer choice for LS powered cars.
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Old 03-07-2013, 03:00 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly@PCMofNC View Post
I personally don't care either way what the customer wants to do. I'm talking generally about street cars/occasional race cars, not something track dedicated.

If someone has the cash and wants to do the blower first, great. That's a HUGE gain right off the bat and really lights up the car for sure. You can make amazing numbers NOW and always go back and add an intake, headers, cam, heads later to get even more power.

Or, maybe some people don't want to blow $6k+ right off the bat and want to go the n/a route first. That's fine too. It's cheaper, and you get to gain power in stages...so you do intake and a full exhaust - that's a nice gain. Get used to that, add a cam. Get used to that, add some heads. Now you're really power hungry so you save your pennies and go forced induction.

Either way the end result is the same and I don't think one way is right or wrong. It's all about what makes YOU happy and fits your budget.

My 2010 Camaro is heads/cam and makes right around 500rwhp. I'd like a blower some day, but for now this set up is great for me.

My 2006 Silverado is blower only (TVS 1900), who knows what it makes (never dyno'd). That's a daily driver type vehicle, I don't want less gas mileage or to hear a loud exhaust on a full size truck so the blower alone is perfect and fits my bill.

My 2007 Trailblazer SS has both. It's heads, cam, and a TVS 2300. It sounds nasty and makes a ton of power.

I'm happy with all three as they are
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly@PCMofNC View Post
Disagree. If you're close to NC I will be glad to take you for a ride in my 500rwhp (ok, 496 but don't call me out) car that drives like stock.

Now, if you over cam it, or your tuner isn't so hot, hell yes a cammed car is a huge pain in the ass. But these days with the LSx's being so mod-friendly, making a 500rwhp daily driver that doesn't buck you off is no big thing at all.

Thanks Kelly for the posts.
Thats pretty much exactly where I will be as well right in that 500rwhp zone.

and exactly as you wrote both have thier place.
but since I came from the 5.0 days CHE comes first then blow the crap out of it

and yeh I think some people are thinking about huge cams in the 60s and 70s and how they were a pain to drive.
today's technology is great
The second Muscle era is upon us for sure.
It's incredible to go to street night at the track these days and watch a car roll right off the street and right up to the line and rip a 10 second or below pass on Street Slicks..
While purpose built 60s and 70s 80s drag cars used to be proud of those times.
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