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Old 03-20-2013, 10:01 PM   #151
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...Just for drill, I'd say the more you look at aircraft, or even NASA (lol), if the technology gets put into cars...all the better....
As for safety....it's the manufacturing, machining and fabricating where you gotta be careful with magnesium...it is a different animal...By the time it gets to the cars, though, no worries...

As far as fires in cars and health and safety, there's bigger fish to fry with plastics, composites, and batteries than with aluminum and magnesium...lol...
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Old 03-20-2013, 11:40 PM   #152
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I'm confused....I thought they referred to their new Aluminum welding procedure...making aluminum the near-term "super material" for weight savings...why the focus on magnesium in here?
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...nesium-trucks/

With all this talk about 15% weight reduction, this looks like the obvious solution, because it follows precedent set over many years: reduce weight by using more expensive materials that reduce reliability and passenger safety.

USA Today did a really good article a while back explaining the human price paid for forced Fuel Economy standards. Considering the leanings of the source publication, the credibility of the research cannot be dismissed to bias.

I hope this is allowable discussion here. I'm completely serious.
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Old 03-20-2013, 11:43 PM   #153
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...then I guess you are out, and then we will be for the better if you find a happier place, no?
I'm working on fixes for all these problems.

One day, the rest of you guys will thank me.
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Old 03-20-2013, 11:48 PM   #154
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I've been reading up (what I can in the past 45 minutes). Apparently, you can add rare earth metals into the alloy formula, and this changes the properties of (among other things) the ignition temperature of the material. Since Al-Mg alloys don't burn at the same temperatures as pure Mg to begin with...Alloys with the intent of high-temperature applications can be formed by using this technique.
The same mindset that pushed us into these materials to stop polluting the air with CO2 are the same ones who have closed down almost all of the U.S. mines that were extracting rare earth metals.

The vast majority of rare earths are now being mined by Chinese firms, who control the price because they have the market cornered.

This topic contains my daily recommended allowance of irony.
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Old 03-21-2013, 12:01 AM   #155
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...Just for drill, I'd say the more you look at aircraft, or even NASA (lol), if the technology gets put into cars...all the better....
As for safety....it's the manufacturing, machining and fabricating where you gotta be careful with magnesium...it is a different animal...By the time it gets to the cars, though, no worries...

As far as fires in cars and health and safety, there's bigger fish to fry with plastics, composites, and batteries than with aluminum and magnesium...lol...
The danger with magnesium is how reactive it is when burning. If it touches water, it causes showers of sparks and flames because of the hydrogen it emits.

Water bottle thrown onto burning VW engines:



Actual firefighter incident with exploding magnesium SUV structure:
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Old 03-21-2013, 10:50 AM   #156
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Thanks for pointing out the dangers of fully involved car fires...I doubt magnesium had anything to do with how it got started...

...And yes, drunk kids on a beach doing what drunk kids do is a great example of why magnesium should not be utilized in automobile manufacturing...

....I supposed a tanker truck fire on a highway is reason enough to stop making gasoline, as well...

WTF, man...give it a rest...please...
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:14 AM   #157
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Old 03-21-2013, 07:21 PM   #158
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Thanks for pointing out the dangers of fully involved car fires...I doubt magnesium had anything to do with how it got started...

...And yes, drunk kids on a beach doing what drunk kids do is a great example of why magnesium should not be utilized in automobile manufacturing...

....I supposed a tanker truck fire on a highway is reason enough to stop making gasoline, as well...

WTF, man...give it a rest...please...
I never said that either video explained how these fires got started. I was using them to show what happens when magnesuim is already on fire. Obviously the VW engine blocks were intentionally set on fire, but the SUV that was on fire was an accidental fire.

The purpose of that video shows that even a trained firefighter was not aware of the explosive nature of the fire, and if you actually watched it you will see that the burning magnesium actually burned completely through his fire coat, and he was saved from severe burns by the protection he was wearing under the fire coat. Molten metal is bad enough, but molten metal that is on fire does not cool off until it consumes itself. It burns through whatever it comes in contact with!!!

It must be really nice to be able to go through life unencumbered by logic and critical thinking.

I guess I have to spell it out for you....

1) Magnesium is a flammable metal.
2) Magnesium creates a highly flammable gas when exposed to water while burning.
3) Magnesium cannot be extinguised by anything other than being smothered by an oxygen barrier, or complete vacuum.
4) Magnesium is WAY easier to ignite if it is formed into a thin sheet or strip.
5) Car makers are beginning to produce cars with exterior body panels made from magnesium.
6) Body panels are traditionally THIN METAL SHEETS pressed into shape.
7) Most people instinctively try to extinguish a fire with water.

Therefore, cars are beginning to be made from this material in a much more dangerous form that is more likely to catch fire (in the traditional car fire scenario) and people will automatically introduce water into the fire, creating an explosion of burning metal.


Do you get my point now?


Enough people each year get burned because they don't know how to put out a grease fire on their stove. What do you think is going to happen when people start trying to put out a magnesium car body fire? BOOM!

So we are going to have cars that are made from this stuff that will eventually be involved in a fire, and someone is going to try and put it out with a hose and the hydrogen will explode and shower everything and everyone for several yeards around with burning slag that does not cool off.

People are eventually going to get hurt by this, and it's MUCH more dangrous than a fuel fire or oil fire. Those are much easier to control.

What could go wrong??!?!?

Do you think that auto body shops are NEVER going to accidentally take a torch to one of these things inside a garage to cut away some damage and NOT set it on fire? What are the chances water will be sprayed on it and burn down the whole building?

Look, if we all have to shell out $500 extra per car because some pencil pusher decided that every car has to have backup sensors and rear cameras because a MASSIVE 23 people a year get run over by BAD DRIVERS in cars backing up, how long do you think they will allow carmakers to continue using magnesium once people start getting hurt because it is so reactive? No matter WHAT the cause of the fire was.

It's not so awful using it for castings where thermal mass makes it hard to ignite, but body panels made from the stuff will ultimately get some ignorant pencil pusher to unilaterally BAN it from ANY use in cars. Then NOBODY will be able to use it for ANYTHING in a car.

I will quote this message when it happens and tell you "I told you so".
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Old 03-21-2013, 07:24 PM   #159
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Is magnesium even as malleable as aluminum for stamping? And aluminum wins no awards in that respect, either...
You can only cast magnesium. Aluminium can be stamped from sheets or extruded (awesome for that) or cast.

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http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...nesium-trucks/

With all this talk about 15% weight reduction, this looks like the obvious solution, because it follows precedent set over many years: reduce weight by using more expensive materials that reduce reliability and passenger safety.
USA Today did a really good article a while back explaining the human price paid for forced Fuel Economy standards. Considering the leanings of the source publication, the credibility of the research cannot be dismissed to bias.

I hope this is allowable discussion here. I'm completely serious.
So do you think the Z06 is less safe than a base Z06????? It has an aluminium frame (that my team engineered) and a magnesium cradle. I've not seen any issues with safety or reliability. When we tested it (including all the carbon fiber) we found it quite safe and quite durable. And I can assure you none of this was done for FE or C02. It was done for performance.

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The same mindset that pushed us into these materials to stop polluting the air with CO2 are the same ones who have closed down almost all of the U.S. mines that were extracting rare earth metals.

The vast majority of rare earths are now being mined by Chinese firms, who control the price because they have the market cornered.

This topic contains my daily recommended allowance of irony.
Cuz they can dig it up and provide it at a lower cost. I'd guess you would agree that China has way less regulations as far as the environment that we do. In fact wouldn't you prefer they use up theirs first?? I know I would.
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:38 PM   #160
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You can only cast magnesium. Aluminium can be stamped from sheets or extruded (awesome for that) or cast.
I'd love to discuss this, but it saddens me that you didn't read my sources. The one goes on about the new method GM has cooked up for making stamped body panels from magnesium. Apparently it stamps well when heated. So, it's not just a cast material anymore.

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So do you think the Z06 is less safe than a base Z06????? It has an aluminium frame (that my team engineered) and a magnesium cradle. I've not seen any issues with safety or reliability. When we tested it (including all the carbon fiber) we found it quite safe and quite durable. And I can assure you none of this was done for FE or C02. It was done for performance.
So then why are they talking about using it for truck bodies? Are they planning on a comeback of the Silverado SS? I don't think so.


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Cuz they can dig it up and provide it at a lower cost. I'd guess you would agree that China has way less regulations as far as the environment that we do. In fact wouldn't you prefer they use up theirs first?? I know I would.
Actually, china is not mining this all in china. They are buying up all the mines around the world they can get their hands on. American companies are getting forced out of the business because they are regulated even for stuff they do in other countries, where china is not.

The issue I have is that we have enough regulations that we can safely mine these things and provide good working conditions for miners and leave things pretty well off when we are done. But the tree humpers don't think this is acceptable. They want it so that we cannot mine anything at all anywhere, leaving the door open to other countries who mistrerat their workers and don't take care of cleanup when they leave.

By "saving" the planet from US mines, they "ruin" it even worse, and cause the price of metals to go up too. It's a lose-lose situation.
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Old 03-22-2013, 09:02 PM   #161
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I never said that either video explained how these fires got started. I was using them to show what happens when magnesuim is already on fire. Obviously the VW engine blocks were intentionally set on fire, but the SUV that was on fire was an accidental fire.

The purpose of that video shows that even a trained firefighter was not aware of the explosive nature of the fire, and if you actually watched it you will see that the burning magnesium actually burned completely through his fire coat, and he was saved from severe burns by the protection he was wearing under the fire coat. Molten metal is bad enough, but molten metal that is on fire does not cool off until it consumes itself. It burns through whatever it comes in contact with!!!

It must be really nice to be able to go through life unencumbered by logic and critical thinking.

I guess I have to spell it out for you....

1) Magnesium is a flammable metal.
2) Magnesium creates a highly flammable gas when exposed to water while burning.
3) Magnesium cannot be extinguised by anything other than being smothered by an oxygen barrier, or complete vacuum.
4) Magnesium is WAY easier to ignite if it is formed into a thin sheet or strip.
5) Car makers are beginning to produce cars with exterior body panels made from magnesium.
6) Body panels are traditionally THIN METAL SHEETS pressed into shape.
7) Most people instinctively try to extinguish a fire with water.

Therefore, cars are beginning to be made from this material in a much more dangerous form that is more likely to catch fire (in the traditional car fire scenario) and people will automatically introduce water into the fire, creating an explosion of burning metal.


Do you get my point now?


Enough people each year get burned because they don't know how to put out a grease fire on their stove. What do you think is going to happen when people start trying to put out a magnesium car body fire? BOOM!

So we are going to have cars that are made from this stuff that will eventually be involved in a fire, and someone is going to try and put it out with a hose and the hydrogen will explode and shower everything and everyone for several yeards around with burning slag that does not cool off.

People are eventually going to get hurt by this, and it's MUCH more dangrous than a fuel fire or oil fire. Those are much easier to control.

What could go wrong??!?!?

Do you think that auto body shops are NEVER going to accidentally take a torch to one of these things inside a garage to cut away some damage and NOT set it on fire? What are the chances water will be sprayed on it and burn down the whole building?

Look, if we all have to shell out $500 extra per car because some pencil pusher decided that every car has to have backup sensors and rear cameras because a MASSIVE 23 people a year get run over by BAD DRIVERS in cars backing up, how long do you think they will allow carmakers to continue using magnesium once people start getting hurt because it is so reactive? No matter WHAT the cause of the fire was.

It's not so awful using it for castings where thermal mass makes it hard to ignite, but body panels made from the stuff will ultimately get some ignorant pencil pusher to unilaterally BAN it from ANY use in cars. Then NOBODY will be able to use it for ANYTHING in a car.

I will quote this message when it happens and tell you "I told you so".
...retort to bold highlight...highlydoubtfull. Backup sensors and rear cameras are a smart approach to blind rear vision and shortcomings in drivers attention dealing with an awkward angle of view. Nothing against your trained firefighters opinion, but from my knowledge and experience paid trained firefighters know about water and a magnesium fire. So, you state there will be accidents and mishaps because of undertrained people working with this material? As opposed to what other technology do you base you conclusions on besides your own opinion? Provide some statistics. There are none in place. Many body/repair shops have been set on fire because someone welded too close to a gas tank. And that has happened more than you would like to know, or like to admit because it works against your advancement of technology argument and the presumed ingnorance of the world dealing with such so therefore we should not head in that direction. Let's make the Fred Flintstone mobile, and we would only have to worry foot injury, hows them apples? How long has gasoline technology been around and the mishandling of that technology causing physical harm? Ignorance is everywhere, even with posts on C5 for example. See above quote.
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Old 03-23-2013, 12:44 AM   #162
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Nothing against your trained firefighters opinion, but from my knowledge and experience paid trained firefighters know about water and a magnesium fire.
Being that less than 30% of all firefighters are paid professionals, you have over 70% chance of having a volunteer firefighter respond to your call. There are many good volunteers who do awesome work, but there are also some who are not as trained or skilled. You WILL see magnesium fire accidents with water used. It is already happening, and we have not started using stamped panels commonly yet!

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So, you state there will be accidents and mishaps because of undertrained people working with this material? As opposed to what other technology do you base you conclusions on besides your own opinion? Provide some statistics. There are none in place. Many body/repair shops have been set on fire because someone welded too close to a gas tank. And that has happened more than you would like to know, or like to admit because it works against your advancement of technology argument and the presumed ingnorance of the world dealing with such so therefore we should not head in that direction.
Actually that SUPPORTS my position. I know of many examples of cutting torches cutting fuel tanks or fuel lines and starting a gas fire. If it can happen with gas then it will happen with magnesium. I assert that magensium is far more dangerous when burning than a run-of-the-mill pretroleum fire.

Imagine if the garage has a state required sprinkler system and one of these things touches off in a room full of mechanics?


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Let's make the Fred Flintstone mobile, and we would only have to worry foot injury, hows them apples? How long has gasoline technology been around and the mishandling of that technology causing physical harm? Ignorance is everywhere, even with posts on C5 for example. See above quote.
Why is anything they do in the name of fuel economy automatically a GOOD idea? Would you pay $3000 more for an extra 3MPG that you have to drive using $4.00/gal gas for 150K miles to break even on?

You seem like an intelligent person who can think it through. Why add additional hazardous materials to a car, which will never pay for themselves over the life of the car, just so that the manufacturer can meet an ARBITRARY mandate?

If you're so interested in saving weight at any cost, why not have your car made from Beryllium? It's way lighter than porky-pig magnesium!
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Old 03-23-2013, 03:42 PM   #163
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All I can post in response to obvious arguing for argument's sake, rather than thoughtful discussion:



The day is looming. And a sad day, it will be.


No. 3: Thank you for your response to my question about manufacturing techniques.
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Old 03-23-2013, 05:32 PM   #164
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All I can post in response to obvious arguing for argument's sake, rather than thoughtful discussion:



The day is looming. And a sad day, it will be.


No. 3: Thank you for your response to my question about manufacturing techniques.
This is not the logical argument you're looking for

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Old 03-24-2013, 02:33 PM   #165
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I find the point-counterpoint educational. Let's not dismiss the knowledge shared by contributors as meaningless tripe. Not in this case anyway. As a simple observer I found some value from all contributors. Thank you for taking your time to do so. I think it was worth more than bladder product.
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Old 03-24-2013, 07:02 PM   #166
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I find the point-counterpoint educational. Let's not dismiss the knowledge shared by contributors as meaningless tripe. Not in this case anyway. As a simple observer I found some value from all contributors. Thank you for taking your time to do so. I think it was worth more than bladder product.
Thanks for supporting an open discussion and encouraging all sides to participate.
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Old 03-27-2013, 01:04 PM   #167
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Well, boys...they pulled off some weight reduction with the Z/28...and put in an LS7...(Needless to say, I think it is a fantastic car, and shows certain unnecessary items can be eliminated and offered as options)...

I just hope this Z/28, it's no frills design, and it's LS7 engine carry into the 6thGen...Could be the monster car of all time...
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Old 03-27-2013, 02:49 PM   #168
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Old 03-27-2013, 06:43 PM   #169
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I still maintain the base Camaro...or whichever one has the Turbo 4 will weigh in at the 3,3xx range or a tad less.

As for the Z/28, whats really mind blowing is that I guarantee, with all the same extreme weight and performance measures taken on the Alpha chasis, the car would only weigh around the same weight of the base Camaro....so in the 3,300 to 3,400lb range.

Imagine the LS7 in THAT Camaro. Suddenly you have a Camaro performing near the same heights as the mighty Z06.
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Old 03-27-2013, 06:56 PM   #170
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I still think this is the swan song for the LS7. Glad that it is in the 5th Gen Z/28, but new CAFE standards are taking affect about the time the 6th Gen comes out. If I were an exec at GM I would not want to use my banked credits to support this platform into 2016 and beyond. I think we will probably see something just as awesome in the future. The Z06 has been around for a while, and they will probably (at least I hope) build a special powerplant for that badge in the C7. Eventually we may see a similar engine in a 6th Gen Z/28. I'm sure it will be just as awesome as the LS7. After all, GM seems to be out to make us performance enthusist happy. The LT1 sounds sweet and the Caddy's are getting a new VSport line with the LF3. I'm loving everything that's going on.
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Old 03-27-2013, 07:18 PM   #171
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I still think this is the swan song for the LS7. Glad that it is in the 5th Gen Z/28, but new CAFE standards are taking affect about the time the 6th Gen comes out. If I were an exec at GM I would not want to use my banked credits to support this platform into 2016 and beyond. I think we will probably see something just as awesome in the future. The Z06 has been around for a while, and they will probably (at least I hope) build a special powerplant for that badge in the C7. Eventually we may see a similar engine in a 6th Gen Z/28. I'm sure it will be just as awesome as the LS7. After all, GM seems to be out to make us performance enthusist happy. The LT1 sounds sweet and the Caddy's are getting a new VSport line with the LF3. I'm loving everything that's going on.
....Then again, if the I-4, TT-V6 and the AFM LT-1 will be out in the 6thGen...that may give some extra life to the LS7 as far as CAFE...dunno how all that works....Seems like only two years worth of the LS7 in a Z/28 would be sort of awkward...
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Old 03-28-2013, 07:50 AM   #172
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....Then again, if the I-4, TT-V6 and the AFM LT-1 will be out in the 6thGen...that may give some extra life to the LS7 as far as CAFE...dunno how all that works....Seems like only two years worth of the LS7 in a Z/28 would be sort of awkward...
It just might. I can't help but think that maintaining a line of engines that are hand built in a special plant will look pretty bad to the bean counters. It will all depend on who wins the arguement at GM.
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:32 PM   #173
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It just might. I can't help but think that maintaining a line of engines that are hand built in a special plant will look pretty bad to the bean counters. It will all depend on who wins the arguement at GM.
I think the LS7 is going into the Camaro partly because GM needs somewhere to put their production capacity of it for the last year or two now that C6 Corvette production, and with it the ZO6, has ended. Ultimately, the LS7 is going to go the way of the LS3. The new LT engine family will quickly replace all the LSs, so the LS7 will not be in the 6th gen Camaro. Give the next Vette a year or two, and there will probably be a higher performance version of the LTs coming for the next ZO6, or at least the ZO6 replacement if they change it to something else. Whether or not that engine will end up in the 6th gen Camaro as a low volume, special version is anyone's guess.
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:37 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Captain Awesome View Post
This frightens me to the point the hairs stood up on my neck. I see a lot of blather about needing to comply with CAFE and the other car companies are also feeling pressure to do the same.

Remember when the car company CEOs would go to washington and FIGHT against these onerous regulations?

Those were the days.

We STILL need to fight for our sanity against ridiculous regulations. America's businesses need to stay globally competetive.
We all need to get along and respect everyones opinions.
I still encourage us all to speak up America to our representatives for all matters including this one.
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:54 PM   #175
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Drives: '10 ABM LT/RS, 06 Chevy Colorado
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Location: Jefferson City, Missouri
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Originally Posted by GretchenGotGrowl View Post
I still think this is the swan song for the LS7. ...
Oh I completely agree with that. Couple years in the Camaro and that will be it.

I was just thinking what it would be like to have it in a 3,300 lbl Camaro on the Alpha chassis.
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