Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
Hines Performance (HPE)
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > Technical Camaro Topics > Suspension / Brakes / Chassis

Suspension / Brakes / Chassis All suspension, brakes and chassis discussions.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 03-14-2013, 01:26 PM   #1
13ashengrey
 
13ashengrey's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 2SS Ashen Grey
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Corydon, IN
Posts: 64
Wheel Hopping at Drag Strip!

I've searched the threads and can't find any on this so any suggestions would help. On the street my car hooks amazing, went to the track for the first time last week and wheel hopped like crazy. Had to slip the clutch on my last pass and went 8.78 at 86.52mph, 60 ft sucked at 2.30. This run was w/o using launch control, i've never used it and didn't want to look like an idiot. Does anyone know the smallest wheels you can run with brembo brakes and if i should go with radials or slicks on stock axles?
13ashengrey is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2013, 01:37 PM   #2
Apex Motorsports

 
Apex Motorsports's Avatar
 
Drives: 2000 Camaro SS
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Louisville, Ky.
Posts: 23,115
When your car begins to accelerate various bushings and suspension/chassis components flex. Under normal driving conditions this flexing is negligible but when the car is launched aggressively the deflection causes significant toe changes which reduce the contact patch of the rear tires. This leads to a reduction in traction and momentary wheel slippage which alleviates the toe changes and allows the rear tires to regrip. The vicious circle then continues as the suddenly improved traction again results in deflection and toe changes leading to wheel slippage.

The key to curing wheel hop is all about limiting the movement of the rear tires in relation to the chassis under acceleration. The main culprits are all bushings. The rear cradle, differential, and the trailing arms, toe rod, and lower control arm bushings. The factory trailing arms and toe rods themselves also flex under load but, again, most of the problem is in the bushings themselves. If you have any questions or want to talk about it in more detail feel free to shoot me a PM or give us a call.
__________________
Apex Motorsports is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2013, 01:45 PM   #3
v6sonoma


 
v6sonoma's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 SS RS
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Providence, RI
Posts: 7,799
Cradle bushings will help a lot. Toe rods and trailing arms too. I know you can use 18"s with the right spacing.

One of our local's is selling his corvette rims with DR's for $600 shipped.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=275359
__________________

Mods: BBK Intake, BBK LT's and High Flow Cats, Corsa Cat-back exhaust, Hurst short throw shifter, SLP skip-shift eliminator.

7/1/09 Placed order for IOM/IO int/ SS/RS 6M
9/26/09 Took delivery!
v6sonoma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2013, 01:57 PM   #4
BMR Sales



 
Drives: 2010 2SS/RS R6P
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Seffner, FL
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apex Chase View Post
When your car begins to accelerate various bushings and suspension/chassis components flex. Under normal driving conditions this flexing is negligible but when the car is launched aggressively the deflection causes significant toe changes which reduce the contact patch of the rear tires. This leads to a reduction in traction and momentary wheel slippage which alleviates the toe changes and allows the rear tires to regrip. The vicious circle then continues as the suddenly improved traction again results in deflection and toe changes leading to wheel slippage.

The key to curing wheel hop is all about limiting the movement of the rear tires in relation to the chassis under acceleration. The main culprits are all bushings. The rear cradle, differential, and the trailing arms, toe rod, and lower control arm bushings. The factory trailing arms and toe rods themselves also flex under load but, again, most of the problem is in the bushings themselves. If you have any questions or want to talk about it in more detail feel free to shoot me a PM or give us a call.
Listen to Apex Chase and you will take care of your wheel hop issues. We ran 18" C5 Z06 wheel on the rear of our shop car for a while with Mickey Thompson drag radials and we had quite a bit of luck until we broke one of the stock axles. With 18" C5 Z06 wheels you can run the Brembo rear brakes. You take a chance of breaking an axle with either drag radials or slicks it just really comes down to how you launch the car. Don't just pop the clutch, slipping the clutch a little will be the best way to extend the life of the factory axles. Once you start hooking that is when you really start worrying about the axles.
__________________
Keith Kanyuh
5th Gen Camaro Suspension Specialist
keith@bmrsuspension.com
www.bmrsuspension.com
Like us on Facebook!
BMR Sales is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2013, 01:59 PM   #5
Russell James


 
Russell James's Avatar
 
Drives: '12 SS/RS LS3 IBM
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 3,399
Like already mentioned... cradle bushing inserts, you'll have to trim the tabs off for a '13. Trailing arms and toe rods with poly bushings. Then with the suspension a little stiffer, experiment with tire pressure. Keep lowering it until it launches better. If I leave too much psi in the rears they will bounce like basketballs on leaving. 3.91 gears would help the launch a lot too.
Russell James is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2013, 02:01 PM   #6
13ashengrey
 
13ashengrey's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 2SS Ashen Grey
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Corydon, IN
Posts: 64
Ok, i apecciate the help so far, im going to look into some rear suspension, and i think im going to buy those wheels and tires posted. My stock 20's did not like the track at all.
13ashengrey is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2013, 02:05 PM   #7
13ashengrey
 
13ashengrey's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 2SS Ashen Grey
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Corydon, IN
Posts: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell James View Post
Like already mentioned... cradle bushing inserts, you'll have to trim the tabs off for a '13. Trailing arms and toe rods with poly bushings. Then with the suspension a little stiffer, experiment with tire pressure. Keep lowering it until it launches better. If I leave too much psi in the rears they will bounce like basketballs on leaving. 3.91 gears would help the launch a lot too.
I think the lowest i will go is 3.73, im going to get a slp tvs2300 blower and i want the car to still be street friendly. And i did have quite a bit of air in the tires because we forgot our air chuck so i'm sure that would've helped.
13ashengrey is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2013, 02:12 PM   #8
caverman


 
caverman's Avatar
 
Drives: '69 SS Convertible
Join Date: May 2009
Location: DFW, TX
Posts: 7,063
Quote:
Originally Posted by 13ashengrey View Post
I think the lowest i will go is 3.73, im going to get a slp tvs2300 blower and i want the car to still be street friendly. And i did have quite a bit of air in the tires because we forgot our air chuck so i'm sure that would've helped.
No...you need 3.91s. That's why GM put them in the 1LE. Until you get over maybe 700 HP you should really keep with 3.91.

I've had 3.91 for over a year now. They are completely streetable and unless you are doing pretty much nothing but highway driving there is a good chance you'll get as good or better MPG since you'll use 6th gear around town alot more.
__________________
-2010 Camaro 2SS | M6 | VR w/White Stripes | 1 3/4" KOOKS - 3" Magnaflow | LPE 3.91 gears | ADM tuned | Halltech w/ADM Scoop | Spohn/BMR Trailing Arm/Toe Rod | BC Coilovers| Pedders FE4 ZL1 swaybars | Cradle/Diff/Radius Rod bushings | VMax TB | Morimoto Projectors | MGW shifter | Red Calipers
Build Journal
caverman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2013, 02:17 PM   #9
13ashengrey
 
13ashengrey's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 2SS Ashen Grey
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Corydon, IN
Posts: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by caverman View Post
No...you need 3.91s. That's why GM put them in the 1LE. Until you get over maybe 700 HP you should really keep with 3.91.

I've had 3.91 for over a year now. They are completely streetable and unless you are doing pretty much nothing but highway driving there is a good chance you'll get as good or better MPG since you'll use 6th gear around town alot more.
Ok, good to hear from someone with them, i know gears will be later on down the road after the supercharger so i'll have plenty of time to figure out what i'm going to do with them, Thanks
13ashengrey is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2013, 12:11 AM   #10
Dupree878
 
Dupree878's Avatar
 
Drives: '13 Dusk Edition 2SS/RS M6
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Tuscaloosa, AL
Posts: 555
Your numbers are better than mine. I was hopping all over and spinning horribly the whole way down the track.
Of course, the local place doesn't prep well. I leave better on the street. I have the 21" dusk wheels and am anxious to try some stock 20s with MT radials.

Got beat by 2 different G8s with LS2s because they had 2.2-2.3 60' times and I was 2.6-2.7 all night
9.02-9.35 82-85mph in the 1/8th.
__________________
Dupree878 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2013, 10:30 AM   #11
Tag140
 
Tag140's Avatar
 
Drives: Black 2010 camaro RS 2SS
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Houston TX
Posts: 130
i have the exactly same problem, the research ive done so far that could help would be new arms: trailing arms, toe rods, and control arms.
thats probably what i will do first. BMR makes some nice ones, but you can even get new rear end axles that would help with the wheel hop, i might do that after i add more HP. all depends on your power goals and how much money your willing to spend haha
__________________
Whipple, Heads/Cam, headers, 2800 stall, 3.73 Gears, Borlas
Tag140 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2013, 10:37 AM   #12
Team STILLEN


 
Team STILLEN's Avatar
 
Drives: 10 Camaro, 10 GT500, 09 GT-R, etc
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Costa Mesa, Ca
Posts: 1,710
Exactly what APEX Chase said...

If you pull the trigger on a kit, I really like PFADTS Stage 3 Performance Kit!!

PM or Call me directly with any questions.

Thanks

JT
__________________
JT - STILLEN Performance Specialist
jtang@stillen.com | 714-540-5566 ext 174
Authorized Dealer - Hotchkis | KW | BC | Eibach | H&R | JBA | Magnaflow | Kooks | CAI | Roto-Fab | K&N | Airaid | AEM | AP Racing | Hawk | Magnuson | Whipple | Edelbrock | Vortech | Procharger | RKSport | Seibon | ACT | T-Rex | Street Scene | WeatherTech

Team STILLEN is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-25-2013, 08:47 PM   #13
BMR Sales



 
Drives: 2010 2SS/RS R6P
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Seffner, FL
Posts: 2,289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dupree878 View Post
Your numbers are better than mine. I was hopping all over and spinning horribly the whole way down the track.
Of course, the local place doesn't prep well. I leave better on the street. I have the 21" dusk wheels and am anxious to try some stock 20s with MT radials.

Got beat by 2 different G8s with LS2s because they had 2.2-2.3 60' times and I was 2.6-2.7 all night
9.02-9.35 82-85mph in the 1/8th.
There are a few simple parts that are affordable and will really help with the wheel hop. The first parts I would look at would be the trailing arms (TCA026) and outer trailing arm bushings (BK006), both these parts are very affordable and pretty easy to install. If there is anything we can help you out with let us know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tag140 View Post
i have the exactly same problem, the research ive done so far that could help would be new arms: trailing arms, toe rods, and control arms.
thats probably what i will do first. BMR makes some nice ones, but you can even get new rear end axles that would help with the wheel hop, i might do that after i add more HP. all depends on your power goals and how much money your willing to spend haha
You definitely have the right idea on the suspension parts! Axles wouldn't be a bad idea either because they will help out with the wheel hop too and are substantially stronger than the factory pieces. We use the Gforce Engineering axles and 9" kit in our shop Camaro and we have had nothing but good luck with it even with the non stop abuse we throw at it.
__________________
Keith Kanyuh
5th Gen Camaro Suspension Specialist
keith@bmrsuspension.com
www.bmrsuspension.com
Like us on Facebook!
BMR Sales is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2013, 01:33 PM   #14
JusticePete
Rebel Leader
 
JusticePete's Avatar
 
Drives: Camaro Justice
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 15,257
You may find the information in the Book of 5th Gen to be useful. This chapter applies specifically to Wheel Hop.

5th Gen Wheel Hop and Drag Race Setup



Setup is more important on an IRS than a traditional solid axle because there are so many more variables in an IRS. Now is a good time to talk about wheel hop.

The #1 source of wheel hop on a 5th Gen Camaro is found in the OEM SUB-FRAME bushes. That would be the reason Chevrolet upgrade the sub-frame bushes by partially filling the Noise Vibration and Harshness (NVH) voids starting with the 2012 5th Gen Vert. The OEM sub-frame bushes are still biased toward NVH concerns and not burn-outs, or performance at the drags or road course weekends. The NVH voided original or slightly improved OEM sub-frame bushes allow the entire IRS to shift side to side while under-load. This motion changes the dynamic alignment of your 5th Gen creating rear end steer, rear end step out and contributing to wheel hop

The #2 source of wheel hop, particularly on lowered Camaros is INCORRECT ALIGNMENT. Too much negative camber places the load of launch primarily on the inside shoulder of the rear tire. Spinning an inch and a half strip of tire doesn't take much HP. Aligning your 5th Gen to less than -.5 degrees rear camber with a TOE IN .17 improves your drag launch by using 90% or more of your rear tires to put power down.

The #3 source of wheel hop is deflection in the toe link bushes. We are not talking about toe link arm deflection we are talking about bush squish in the arm. How do I know? Hard engineering data. When GM built the Leno Twin Turbo Camaro they were not satisfied with the handling. Jay's Camaro has a very aggressive set of wheels and tires that increase the load on the suspension. In speaking with some members of the build TEAM I suggested a couple of Pedders upgrades in addition to the Xa coilovers that were already installed at the Milford Proving Grounds. Being a structured and data driven company, the build TEAM decided they should measure and document the issues on a shaker.





You can see a Camaro on GM's Shaker Rig at 55 seconds in.





What were the results of Leno's car on the SHAKER? The data and data points belong to Chevrolet and GM. The EP1200 sub-frame inserts and EP7323 Toe Link Bushes may be on Mr. Leno's Camaro, but they belong to me.

The #4 source of wheel hop on a 5th Gen is the tie and tread compound. Check aorund the forum and see what happends with wheel hop when you run on drag rubber or shorter tires.

The #5 source of wheel hop is a combination of modest spring rate and a damper map biased a bit too much to ride comfort. We spent a long time working with Lingenfelter to develop a dedicated set of drag coilovers. The front coil rate is 4.5kg and the rear is 12kg. The front monotube has a longer stroke than stock. The rear monotube is a massive 52mm diameter unit that is maxed out for bound control. High RWHP Camaros with slicks bite so har the launch is violent. They compres the rear suspension so fast that it bounces off the bumpstops. Keep in mind this was measured using a well known set of brand-x coilovers on the LPE Black Pig. When we bolted on out of the box Pedders Supercars the Black Pig picked up 2/10ths in the 60'. After we tested, refined and tested and.... you get the idea the LPE Drag Coilovers delivered more than 3/10ths improvement in the 60'

The #6 source of wheel hop is related to side to side load distribution. The factory rear sway bar 2010 to 2011 is a 23mm hollow tube that mounts inboard close to the differential. It is a light weight bar by any measure. The 2012 FE4 features an improved sway bar mounting position that is close to the knuckle. This is a HUGE improvement in geometry and function. The ZL1 comes of the assembly line with a 28mm SOLID bar. The change in geometry coupled with the change in bar strength (GM is now using solid sway bars just like Pedders Camaro sway bars) more effectively distribute load on hard launch. Upgrading to OE Rear Lower Control Arms with the new FE4 / ZL1 sway bar mounting points and a ZL1 28mm solid rear bar will imporve your drag launch. If you are looking for even more improvement your ONLY option is Pedders new 2010 to 2011 ZL1 32mm solid rear bar complete with GM ZL1 Arms and Pedders Droplinks. If you have a 2012 all you'll need is the ZL1 Rear Sway Bar Upgrade.

The #7 source of wheel hop is driveline movement. Driveline twist or driveline torque is a mini-wheel-hop motion. Replacing the OEM NVH biased differential bushes is the first place to start. The front two differential bushes are under heavy load, but that load is dwarfed by the load that the rear differential bush carries. Our solution is the new EP1167HDZ. The front two bushes are very high durometer urethane and the rear bush is machined Acetal for maximum control for optimized launches.

When you are serious about your 5th Gen performance on the drag strip your solutions are found at Pedders and Lingenfelter. If you get serious so do we. We provide special support to the LPE Black Pig and her support crew.



Camaro5FEST III at Indy Drag Results

Farks/ARH TH400 (IRS 3800#) 416 ci,Procharger,Lt"s,Exhaust,Slicks&Skinnies (IRS 3800#) 8.723 @ 156.21 MPH PEDDERS / LINGENFELTER

JE@LPE TH400 (IRS 4200#) LS9,TV2300.Nitrous,Cam,LT's,Exhaust,Converter,9.5" ,16" Slick's & Skinnie"s 8.789 @ 164.98 MPH PEDDERS / LINGENFELTER

RPM Transmissions 4L60E (IRS 4000#) 427 ci,Nitrous,Heads,Cam,LT's,Exhaust,Converter,9",15" DR's 8.943 @ 154.40 MPH

Jannetty Glide 9.29 PEDDERS / LINGENFELTER

Here is the index for the complete book.

Pedders 2010 Chevrolet Camaro Suspension Evaluation

Foundational 5th Gen Required Upgrades

Lowering Coils and Coilovers

Trouble Free, OEM Quiet V6 Lowering

Sway Bars

Suspension Bushes

ZL1 / CTS-V Brake Upgrade for the SS

Wheels and Tires

Bush Timing, Alignment and Torque Specs

Pedders USA Camaro 2.0

Lingenfelter L/28 Tech

5th Gen Wheel Hop and Drag Race Setup

Thermal Management

Running Changes Made to the 5th Gen by Chevrolet

Public Track Test #1

Public Track Test #2 Camaro vs. Mustang Supercar Shootout

Caution: Test driving any Pedderised vehicle can be dangerous. Pedderised vehicles have been known to induce suspension envy and sleepless nights filled with longing. Before test-driving any Pedderised vehicle, check with your banking and accounting professionals. Pedderised vehicles are known to induce credit card bills and reduced bank balances. There is no antidote. Only genuine Pedders can cure Suspension Envy.
__________________
JusticePete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2013, 05:00 PM   #15
Apex Motorsports

 
Apex Motorsports's Avatar
 
Drives: 2000 Camaro SS
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Louisville, Ky.
Posts: 23,115
Quote:
Originally Posted by Team STILLEN View Post
Exactly what APEX Chase said...
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMR Sales View Post
Listen to Apex Chase and you will take care of your wheel hop issues.
Thanks!
__________________
Apex Motorsports is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Tags
launch, tires, wheels

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.