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Old 02-12-2008, 04:45 PM   #1
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Continued Bad News for Pontiac

http://www.leftlanenews.com/no-trans...r-pontiac.html

So we've known for a long time that the Trans-Am wasn't going to happen. But Pontiac was still supposed to get more RWD performance models beyond the G8. Well once again it sounds like GM has dropped those plans, because of the stupid lie that they can't meet the new CAFE regulations without killing off all their projects. Never mind everyone else is preparing RWD performance cars (even TOYOTA!). Never mind that Pontiac was supposed to be somewhat niche and lower volume. Never mind that GM is getting major credits for E85 capability. Never mind that RWD only takes away 1-2 mpg. Never mind that not every car has to hit 35 mpg. Never mind that they have years to get there. Nope, this is GM back to its old bad habits, taking the easy way out and killing off the good stuff then blaming other people because they don't care about making it happen. It seems like the Camaro is the last performance car we'll see out of GM that someone actually cared and put the effort into. What a way to go out, and if this was going to be the last great car from GM then we certainly have a good one, but still, this is just getting to be too much. Ford is developing some really cool V6s, ones I actually wouldn't mind owning. Honda and Toyota even have some RWD performance cars on the way. Mazda is developing the next RX8 or something similar. What do we get from GM? Excuses and project after project axed. CAFE is stupid, yes, but it affects everyone. Yet while everyone else is innovating to deal with it, GM is just sitting on their hands crying about it. You all know how much I loved the idea of the Alpha platform, and its just a kick in the gut every time they come closer to fully canceling it along with all of their other cool plans. Pretty soon GM will be making nothing but Aveos, blaming CAFE all day long while everyone else is making the performance cars we all love. If this is the way GM is headed, I'll be jumping ship after the Camaro.
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Old 02-12-2008, 07:12 PM   #2
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I find myself troubled by your comments about how bad GM is...

I'm curious what you know that they don't? Especially with Lutz at the head of it all.
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Old 02-12-2008, 09:46 PM   #3
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What else was pontiac supposed to get? A new GTO has been on and off with the same frequency as the rwd impala. The G8 wagon has been put aside because of the lack of intrest in such a vehicle. Not sure what has been cancelled that was ever a for sure go.
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Old 02-12-2008, 09:57 PM   #4
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The plan was to convert to full RWD. So you'd have a RWD replacement for the G6, the Solstice, the G8, and the G8 ST. But nope, now GM's "excitement" division is still stuck with a pretty mediocre family sedan, a rebadged Cobalt (not a bad car, but not a performance car) and worst of all, a rejected Toyota. How can you possibly praise GM for that call? It looks like I'll have to go upside down on my Cobalt, trade it in soon, and take out a looooong massive loan to get a stripped down Camaro now, because with the way GM is going about this whole CAFE thing it won't be around long.
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Old 02-13-2008, 08:13 AM   #5
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Whoa!

Please see my comments below.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by stovt001 View Post
http://www.leftlanenews.com/no-trans...r-pontiac.html

So we've known for a long time that the Trans-Am wasn't going to happen. But Pontiac was still supposed to get more RWD performance models beyond the G8. Well once again it sounds like GM has dropped those plans, because of the stupid lie that they can't meet the new CAFE regulations without killing off all their projects. Never mind everyone else is preparing RWD performance cars (even TOYOTA!). Never mind that Pontiac was supposed to be somewhat niche and lower volume. Never mind that GM is getting major credits for E85 capability. Never mind that RWD only takes away 1-2 mpg. Never mind that not every car has to hit 35 mpg. Never mind that they have years to get there. Nope, this is GM back to its old bad habits, taking the easy way out and killing off the good stuff then blaming other people because they don't care about making it happen. It seems like the Camaro is the last performance car we'll see out of GM that someone actually cared and put the effort into. What a way to go out, and if this was going to be the last great car from GM then we certainly have a good one, but still, this is just getting to be too much. Ford is developing some really cool V6s, ones I actually wouldn't mind owning. Honda and Toyota even have some RWD performance cars on the way. Mazda is developing the next RX8 or something similar. What do we get from GM? Excuses and project after project axed. CAFE is stupid, yes, but it affects everyone. Yet while everyone else is innovating to deal with it, GM is just sitting on their hands crying about it. You all know how much I loved the idea of the Alpha platform, and its just a kick in the gut every time they come closer to fully canceling it along with all of their other cool plans. Pretty soon GM will be making nothing but Aveos, blaming CAFE all day long while everyone else is making the performance cars we all love. If this is the way GM is headed, I'll be jumping ship after the Camaro.

First of all -- no one has killed off projects. Work has been stopped on projects.....for a good reason: our stockholders INSIST that we act with prudence. (and if you have a 401K or any retirement plan -- you are a GM Stockholder....) It would be foolhardy to continue working on every new project UNTIL we can figure out how we will get to an eventual 35mpg by 2020.......

Second -- I think it's completely inappropriate for you to make comments that it's a lie we can't hit CAFE numbers. We WILL hit them -- but as Bob Lutz says - "we don't know what we don't know...." -- meaning that the law changed -- BUT THE RULES STILL HAVE NOT BEEN WRITTEN...and therefore, NO manufacturer knows how to hit the number as of yet. It's kinda like me saying to you "I want you to drive down the street-- but I haven't decided just HOW I want you to drive down the street." So you assume that I want you to drive down the street on the right hand side of the street -- but my eventual rules say "it is illegal to drive on the right hand side of the street"....

See where I'm going with this?


You wrote:
".......Ford is developing some really cool V6s, ones I actually wouldn't mind owning. Honda and Toyota even have some RWD performance cars on the way. Mazda is developing the next RX8 or something similar. What do we get from GM? Excuses and project after project axed. ..."

OK -- first of all, I don't recall seeing you in any of our product planning meetings -- so you don't know that ANYTHING was axed. I can't even follow your logic to the Ford V6 thing....which has nothing to do with RWD.

Then you wrote:

"........Yet while everyone else is innovating to deal with it, GM is just sitting on their hands crying about it......."


Sooooooooo..........tell me which company has anything like the Equinox Fuel Cell vehicle?

Who is the leader in E85 -- not only with numbers of cars out there and available -- but with technology behind it to make E85 a reality across the nation as a true solution that can be done TODAY......

Who offers a better Hybrid SUV to meet the needs of those who NEED to tow-- or NEED to carry up to 8 people or who NEED 4wd?

-- and by the way -- that Tahoe2mode Hybrid that I'm referring to gets 20mpg city and 22 highway -- which, if you do your research is the same or better than a new Toyota Camry 4 cyl.

Then there's the Volt -- I could go on for days......

The list could go on -- but you, sir, are very much misinformed.

I'm sorry if I seem harsh -- but you levelled some pretty harsh accusations against GM -- and you did not have your facts straight.

We have a lot at stake at GM -- you can be assured that people are working harder than ever before to turn GM around -- how 'bout giving us a break and perhaps asking a few questions before blasting us?
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Old 02-13-2008, 08:37 AM   #6
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Harsh?!?! I thought you were kinder than I would have been....
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Old 02-13-2008, 09:48 AM   #7
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I don't know where the "negativity" towards GM comes from, and I can only chalk it up to a lack of information by those accusing GM of "sitting on their hands."

I've seen at the auto show the vehicles GM is developing for greater fuel efficiency, I've seen all of the ads showing the line of vehicles GM has developed, as well as the ones being developed. HOW CAN ANYONE see this and accuse GM of doing nothing???

Speaking only for myself, I am PROUD of GM for taking such a leading role in the development of higher efficiency vehicles, and I also have ALL THE CONFIDENCE in GM that they will meet the new CAFE mandates.

DO NOT make the mistake of accusing GM of doing nothing. I believe we'll all see GREAT performing and efficient vehicles being built GM coming in the near future.
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Old 02-13-2008, 10:31 AM   #8
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and worst of all, a rejected Toyota.
If you are referring to the Vibe/Matrix, which was a joint effort between Pontiac and Toyota, I suggest you stfu, as a Vibe owner, I happen to know it's a great car, I get 34 miles to the gallon, can you say that? I can deliver large five tier wedding cakes, can you say that? No, it's not a Camaro or Corvette, but you know what, that’s not what I needed when I bought it. Not everyone on here is lucky enough to own a Camaro/Trams-am so until then shut your trap, and have some respect.
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Old 02-13-2008, 12:35 PM   #9
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WOW!!!

OK....I THINK A POINT HAS BEEN MADE. Now...no more slamming, no more negativity, no more nada.

if anyone wishes to add respectful information and/or comments, pleasae do so. If not, please refrain from posting.
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Old 02-13-2008, 12:36 PM   #10
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The plan was to convert to full RWD. So you'd have a RWD replacement for the G6, the Solstice, the G8, and the G8 ST. But nope, now GM's "excitement" division is still stuck with a pretty mediocre family sedan, a rebadged Cobalt (not a bad car, but not a performance car) and worst of all, a rejected Toyota. How can you possibly praise GM for that call? It looks like I'll have to go upside down on my Cobalt, trade it in soon, and take out a looooong massive loan to get a stripped down Camaro now, because with the way GM is going about this whole CAFE thing it won't be around long.
THAT WOULDN'T BE A COBALT SPORT WOULD IT?

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Old 02-13-2008, 01:41 PM   #11
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I'm so not going to post in this thread after I say one thing:

misinformed people usually make misinformed assumptions.
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Old 02-13-2008, 09:37 PM   #12
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If you are referring to the Vibe/Matrix, which was a joint effort between Pontiac and Toyota, I suggest you stfu, as a Vibe owner, I happen to know it's a great car, I get 34 miles to the gallon, can you say that? I can deliver large five tier wedding cakes, can you say that? No, it's not a Camaro or Corvette, but you know what, that’s not what I needed when I bought it. Not everyone on here is lucky enough to own a Camaro/Trams-am so until then shut your trap, and have some respect.
I'm not saying it needs to be a Camaro. The Vibe/Matrix is way more of a Toyota vehicle than a GM vehicle. Now I'm all for hatchbacks, absolutely love them, but sadly the Vibe/Matrix are not offered in proper hot hatch trim, something at the level of the GTI, Mazdaspeed3, or new HHR SS. Therefore I don't see it really being fit for GM's excitement division. And by being a rejected Toyota, well, the Matrix just doesn't sell. When I was working at a Toyota dealership, we'd sell 5-10 Corollas a day, 20 some Camrys, 3-4 Prius (Prii?), and maybe 1 Matrix every few days. By the way, I don't own a Camaro or a Trans-am, as you imply. I own a Cobalt. It gets 34 mpg too. Anyway, my point is that Pontiac deserves so truly sporty cars, which I do not feel the Vibe is. Practical? Yes, I'm not denying that. But it just isn't sporty.

As far as the new Ford TC V6, I'm not saying it has to do with RWD, but it has to do with Ford's response to the new CAFE rules. A V6 making great power and economy? Now that is exciting. It strikes the same great balance as the I4 in the Solstice/Sky GXP, and I'd love to see GM do something like that in V6 form, then put it in a BMW 3-series size RWD performance coupe/sedan. In case the Camaro doesn't work out for me (God forbid) something like that would have been my ideal backup, but it doesn't look like we'll get that now.

I'm sorry to get everyone all upset, but you have to understand that we still have to be skeptical of the corporate culture in Detroit. Sure things have changed a lot in the past few years, but Lutz won't be around forever and it is really easy to slip back into the same bad habits. Take the whole rebadging thing as an example. One thing GM swore up and down it would change was its practice of just rebadging the same car for different brands. Remember the Cimmaron (spelling?) Yeah, I was hoping GM would never do that again. But look at what happened: GM took a good thing with the Lambda crossovers then went back to the old practice of rebadging it a million times over. If three wasn't bad enough, now Chevy gets one too. So you have 4 nearly identical vehicles (the Enclave being the only really different one) competing for the same customers. Imagine if GM stopped fighting itself and instead of funding 4 marketing campaigns just funded 2 (upper end Enclave and more entry level one of the other three). Maybe then Ford wouldn't nearly match its sales with its Edge alone. I think we can all agree the Lambdas are superior to the Edge, but because they're fighting against themselves one Ford product nearly beats all of them combined. They did the smart thing and made two versions: one high end and one for the common man. So Lutz is still going strong and already we're slipping back into the old habits. Pontiac is still getting a rebadged Cobalt, and that doesn't look like it will change anytime soon. Can you blame me for being skeptical?

As far as the hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, doesn't the Honda Clarity have a wider distribution and longer range at the moment? Correct me if I'm wrong...

I noticed no defense was offered for the G6, so I assume everyone else feels like it deserves more, as I do. Once again I'm still hoping it gets an Alpha-based replacement or something similar, but I won't hold my breath. I know you all want me to believe GM is doing the absolute best it can, and maybe it is, but whatever the case this all looks too depressingly familiar. A few years of good calls can't make up for 30 years of bad judgments.
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Old 02-13-2008, 09:41 PM   #13
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THAT WOULDN'T BE A COBALT SPORT WOULD IT?

VISIT AN AUTO SHOW YOU WILL FEEL BETTER IN THE MORNING (ABOUT GM)
If Pontiac is going to use a rebadged Cobalt, they should at least get the sportiest trim, not the semi-sporty trim. I get the reasoning behind giving Pontiac an entry level car, but since it is supposed to be the "excitement" division, why not give them the supercharged version?
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Old 02-13-2008, 09:55 PM   #14
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If Pontiac is going to use a rebadged Cobalt, they should at least get the sportiest trim, not the semi-sporty trim. I get the reasoning behind giving Pontiac an entry level car, but since it is supposed to be the "excitement" division, why not give them the supercharged version?
because the supercharged one is outdated now there's a turbo'd one
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Old 02-13-2008, 10:38 PM   #15
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because the supercharged one is outdated now there's a turbo'd one
But what about when the supercharged cobalt first came out?
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Old 02-13-2008, 10:51 PM   #16
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Stovt001 --

OK -- so - tell me this: how would you meet the contractual obligations that GM has to its dealers? See-- we have this agreement that essentially says: .....Mr/Ms Dealer -- if you provide adequate capital/facilities/training/personnel -- we will provide you with vehicles that will give you a return on your investment...... Now - our plan is to combine all Buick/Pontiac/GMC dealers into one location eventually -- but you can't force a dealer to give up his francise -- and you can't assign a second one in the same market based on francise laws..........so....we still have an obligation to provide a lineup of vehicles for those dealers who haven't all three francises......what would YOU do?

You can't seriously believe that EVERYONE at the top of GM is stupid or foolish --

Tell me what you would do differently with the Lambdas -- and while you're at it, I would like to see a complete cost analysis to show how you'd compete in the growing cross-over market.

(by the way -- watch what happens to the volume of the Traverse versus the other GM Entries -- you'll find that Chevy will move the iron at a much higher volume........)

Next assignment -- I'd like your estimate as to what it costs to bring a brand new vehicle to market -- as well as rebadging a vehicle such as the Equinox to Torrent..........

As to the V6 -- ever hear of the Direct Injection 3.6 in the new CTS?

Again -- I don't mean to be rude or caustic -- I'm just asking you to stop for a moment before making declarations -- you just may learn something by sitting back and asking questions -- rather than declarations.........
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Old 02-13-2008, 11:03 PM   #17
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As far as the new Ford TC V6, I'm not saying it has to do with RWD, but it has to do with Ford's response to the new CAFE rules. A V6 making great power and economy? Now that is exciting. It strikes the same great balance as the I4 in the Solstice/Sky GXP, and I'd love to see GM do something like that in V6 form, then put it in a BMW 3-series size RWD performance coupe/sedan. In case the Camaro doesn't work out for me (God forbid) something like that would have been my ideal backup, but it doesn't look like we'll get that now.
Okay, what about the direct injected CTS engine? How 'bout a direct injected AFM engine with +-400 horses that gets 30 mpg? What's that? How 'bout the Volt? That one gets... well, plugged in! Who the hell cares about a V6 when you can get maximum torque the second you hit the gas! Well, whatever the case, we're all entitled to our own opinions, eh? Fortunately for us, opinions mean jack when there are facts to back whatever the opinion is arguing against.
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Old 02-13-2008, 11:07 PM   #18
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Stovt001 --

As to the V6 -- ever hear of the Direct Injection 3.6 in the new CTS?
Dammit, man! You post too fast! Still, I'm sure everyone on this site would rather hear it from you.
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Old 02-13-2008, 11:20 PM   #19
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Quote:
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Stovt001 --

OK -- so - tell me this: how would you meet the contractual obligations that GM has to its dealers? See-- we have this agreement that essentially says: .....Mr/Ms Dealer -- if you provide adequate capital/facilities/training/personnel -- we will provide you with vehicles that will give you a return on your investment...... Now - our plan is to combine all Buick/Pontiac/GMC dealers into one location eventually -- but you can't force a dealer to give up his francise -- and you can't assign a second one in the same market based on francise laws..........so....we still have an obligation to provide a lineup of vehicles for those dealers who haven't all three francises......what would YOU do?

You can't seriously believe that EVERYONE at the top of GM is stupid or foolish --

Tell me what you would do differently with the Lambdas -- and while you're at it, I would like to see a complete cost analysis to show how you'd compete in the growing cross-over market.

(by the way -- watch what happens to the volume of the Traverse versus the other GM Entries -- you'll find that Chevy will move the iron at a much higher volume........)

Next assignment -- I'd like your estimate as to what it costs to bring a brand new vehicle to market -- as well as rebadging a vehicle such as the Equinox to Torrent..........

As to the V6 -- ever hear of the Direct Injection 3.6 in the new CTS?

Again -- I don't mean to be rude or caustic -- I'm just asking you to stop for a moment before making declarations -- you just may learn something by sitting back and asking questions -- rather than declarations.........

well said, sir, very well said
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Old 02-14-2008, 12:13 AM   #20
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Stovt001 --

Tell me what you would do differently with the Lambdas -- and while you're at it, I would like to see a complete cost analysis to show how you'd compete in the growing cross-over market.

Next assignment -- I'd like your estimate as to what it costs to bring a brand new vehicle to market -- as well as rebadging a vehicle such as the Equinox to Torrent
..........
Did you want those by Friday…
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Old 02-14-2008, 12:45 AM   #21
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I've heard the dealers all demanded a Lambda, but shouldn't it end somewhere? I totally agree that the Chevy will probably move the most units, but Chevy already has too many vehicles. Bob himself said so. The problem you run into is that you either market one effectively, but in doing so you're forced to throw the rest under the bus (example: Aura and Malibu. Imagine if the Aura had a campaign as strong as the Malibu's) or you just semi-market the whole lot and then watch as your competition matches your sales numbers with a single lesser vehicle (Lambdas vs Edge). I suppose that the problem was created long ago when GM started all these brands and failed adapt to a new market environment, but really, isn't 4 versions of the same vehicle just a little excessive? Or are we to still expect Cadillac, Hummer, and Saab versions? I mean Hummer has a very limited lineup. If everyone must have a ton of model lines, certainly you must be contractually obligated to give Hummer one. Honestly, seeing as how GMC will likely be blessed with the Denali concept and from what I hear a Vue clone, perhaps the Acadia could have been skipped. I get the impression that both Saturn and GMC are positioned slightly upscale from Chevy, so I'd position the Traverse as the supreme economy version, the Outlook as a bit more upscale, and the Enclave as truly upscale. Then give GMC the Vue clone (only two models is acceptable) and the Denali concept (I know, still unconfirmed, but I think a lot of people will be surprised if it didn't happen, as everything looks pretty put together on that end). Pontiac I imagine will still keep the Torrent, Vibe, and G5 for a few more years at least. So everyone has a full lineup, Rebadging is limited to 2, 3 versions of a model maximum, and Chevy has a lineup so full the average dealership only has enough room to keep one unit of each model on hand at a given time. My point is cloning a model once is understandable. Twice can be justified using the "everyone needs a full lineup" thing, especially with a great product like the Lambdas. It just gets really hard to get 4 of them out there and give them the marketing they deserve.

Re: the 3.6DI. Good point, and as far as the high tech, powerful and efficient engine families go, here's what the lineup looks like:

I4:
Ford: 2.0L TC DI 275 hp, 280 lb/ft
GM 2.0L TC DI 260 hp, 260 lb/ft

V6
Ford: 3.5L TC DI 340 hp, 340 lb/ft
GM: 3.6L DI 300 hp, 300 lb/ft (I think?)

Sorry, but Ford wins on both rounds. GM was first and both were great, but Ford has come from behind and leapfrogged. And really, it doesn't matter much whether out V6 makes 300 hp or 340, because if we put it through the front wheels it won't be much fun. Too bad I can't afford a CTS.

Speaking of affordable, a number of people have said "well, look at the autoshows to see what GM is coming out with"

OK, lets look at that:
Hybrid Tahoe, Yukon, Sierra, and Silverado. I don't know the pricing for the trucks, but since the SUVs will be going for $60,000 or so, they mean absolutely nothing to me most GM customers in practical terms. Cool? Heck yes. But really something I can get excited about owning? Nope. Especially since as a 21 year old corporate financial analyst intern living in LA with just a fiancee to drive around I have absolutely no need for a truck.

GMC Denali concept - still unconfirmed, and see above. Likely too expensive, and no need for a truck.

Corvette ZR1 - too expensive

CTS-V - too slow...umm, no, kidding, just too expensive.

Traverse - yet another in a long line of Lambdas, and I have no need for a family car.

Seriously, all of GM's recent concepts are targeted at the Texas tycoons or people with huge families. So as my beloved smaller RWD cars are dropped from consideration in favor of more super expensive cars and clones of mom-mobiles, I'm left with the G8 (far too big) and the still promising Camaro. If something were to go wrong there, GM has nothing else for me, despite its insane amount of brands. Of course, there is always the Mazda RX8, Mitsubishi Lancer Ralliart, upcoming Toyota and Honda RWD performance cars, Hyundai Genesis coupe... Basically I'm left with tons of sporty, smaller, affordable alternatives, all outside of GM.

Finally, one last note: every time word comes out that GM is dropping another proposed product due to CAFE, the phrase that comes up is "The G8 and the Camaro are still safe because they are too far along to cancel." So read between the lines there. It is only by luck of timing that we're even getting the 2 remaining affordable performance cars GM has left. If GM could have canceled them without forfeiting sunk costs, they would have. When I hear things like that, I lose confidence fast.
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Old 02-14-2008, 12:52 AM   #22
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hmmm... I don't know what to say. But I do have a question for Scott since this is a thread he could peek at and its sort of on topic

Hey Scott, I don't know if you have seen my previous posts on the CAFE regulation crap, but I have had at least the current rules explained to me from a few people in the industry. Am I getting/giving correct information or should I shut my piehole with bad info?

here is what I said in case you want to check it out. http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showth...?t=2769&page=6

Just checking on myself

oh and I think GM has cool stuff even minus the RWD,
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Old 02-14-2008, 01:01 AM   #23
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FWD is all well and good for compacts, even sporty compacts but try to channel 300+hp through just the front wheels and you'll understand why the real performance cars are RWD. Torque steer and understeer are not fun.
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Old 02-14-2008, 01:02 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stovt001 View Post
I've heard the dealers all demanded a Lambda, but shouldn't it end somewhere? I totally agree that the Chevy will probably move the most units, but Chevy already has too many vehicles. Bob himself said so. The problem you run into is that you either market one effectively, but in doing so you're forced to throw the rest under the bus (example: Aura and Malibu. Imagine if the Aura had a campaign as strong as the Malibu's) or you just semi-market the whole lot and then watch as your competition matches your sales numbers with a single lesser vehicle (Lambdas vs Edge). I suppose that the problem was created long ago when GM started all these brands and failed adapt to a new market environment, but really, isn't 4 versions of the same vehicle just a little excessive? Or are we to still expect Cadillac, Hummer, and Saab versions? I mean Hummer has a very limited lineup. If everyone must have a ton of model lines, certainly you must be contractually obligated to give Hummer one. Honestly, seeing as how GMC will likely be blessed with the Denali concept and from what I hear a Vue clone, perhaps the Acadia could have been skipped. I get the impression that both Saturn and GMC are positioned slightly upscale from Chevy, so I'd position the Traverse as the supreme economy version, the Outlook as a bit more upscale, and the Enclave as truly upscale. Then give GMC the Vue clone (only two models is acceptable) and the Denali concept (I know, still unconfirmed, but I think a lot of people will be surprised if it didn't happen, as everything looks pretty put together on that end). Pontiac I imagine will still keep the Torrent, Vibe, and G5 for a few more years at least. So everyone has a full lineup, Rebadging is limited to 2, 3 versions of a model maximum, and Chevy has a lineup so full the average dealership only has enough room to keep one unit of each model on hand at a given time. My point is cloning a model once is understandable. Twice can be justified using the "everyone needs a full lineup" thing, especially with a great product like the Lambdas. It just gets really hard to get 4 of them out there and give them the marketing they deserve.

Re: the 3.6DI. Good point, and as far as the high tech, powerful and efficient engine families go, here's what the lineup looks like:

I4:
Ford: 2.0L TC DI 275 hp, 280 lb/ft
GM 2.0L TC DI 260 hp, 260 lb/ft

V6
Ford: 3.5L TC DI 340 hp, 340 lb/ft
GM: 3.6L DI 300 hp, 300 lb/ft (I think?)

Sorry, but Ford wins on both rounds. GM was first and both were great, but Ford has come from behind and leapfrogged. And really, it doesn't matter much whether out V6 makes 300 hp or 340, because if we put it through the front wheels it won't be much fun. Too bad I can't afford a CTS.

Speaking of affordable, a number of people have said "well, look at the autoshows to see what GM is coming out with"

OK, lets look at that:
Hybrid Tahoe, Yukon, Sierra, and Silverado. I don't know the pricing for the trucks, but since the SUVs will be going for $60,000 or so, they mean absolutely nothing to me most GM customers in practical terms. Cool? Heck yes. But really something I can get excited about owning? Nope. Especially since as a 21 year old corporate financial analyst intern living in LA with just a fiancee to drive around I have absolutely no need for a truck.

GMC Denali concept - still unconfirmed, and see above. Likely too expensive, and no need for a truck.

Corvette ZR1 - too expensive

CTS-V - too slow...umm, no, kidding, just too expensive.

Traverse - yet another in a long line of Lambdas, and I have no need for a family car.

Seriously, all of GM's recent concepts are targeted at the Texas tycoons or people with huge families. So as my beloved smaller RWD cars are dropped from consideration in favor of more super expensive cars and clones of mom-mobiles, I'm left with the G8 (far too big) and the still promising Camaro. If something were to go wrong there, GM has nothing else for me, despite its insane amount of brands. Of course, there is always the Mazda RX8, Mitsubishi Lancer Ralliart, upcoming Toyota and Honda RWD performance cars, Hyundai Genesis coupe... Basically I'm left with tons of sporty, smaller, affordable alternatives, all outside of GM.

Finally, one last note: every time word comes out that GM is dropping another proposed product due to CAFE, the phrase that comes up is "The G8 and the Camaro are still safe because they are too far along to cancel." So read between the lines there. It is only by luck of timing that we're even getting the 2 remaining affordable performance cars GM has left. If GM could have canceled them without forfeiting sunk costs, they would have. When I hear things like that, I lose confidence fast.
I feel your pain, I am a 21 year old dude in Vegas working for a lawfirm. A lot of stuff said about the problems with CAFE and GM halting some projects is through the media which is.... not the best place to get information anymore? Its a lot of politics, but you definately want a camaro right? It should be affordable, so get it. Let time tell as to if GM will work things out, not jump to conclusions of the future. Hell I was looking at a variety of vehicles outside of GM because I needed a car, but then the Camaro came along and I will die for one now. So they have to be doing at least something right.
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Old 02-14-2008, 01:07 AM   #25
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The one thing I'm worried about is that I won't be able to afford a Camaro at launch. It will take another year and a half (minimum) to 3 years or even more after launch until I can afford it, what with paying for a wedding, splitting rent with only one other person now, paying off college loans, starting an investment portfolio, save for a house... Now my worry is that if GM is already wanting to cancel it if not for the sunk costs and nearly-complete development, how many years will they put up with it before it goes the way of the GTO and SSR. I just worry it will be canceled before I can get one, and I'll have to go elsewhere. I really don't want to leave GM, but I'm worried I'll have no choice, because cars like the G6 in its current state just don't do it for me.
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