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Old 02-12-2008, 04:45 PM   #1
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Continued Bad News for Pontiac

http://www.leftlanenews.com/no-trans...r-pontiac.html

So we've known for a long time that the Trans-Am wasn't going to happen. But Pontiac was still supposed to get more RWD performance models beyond the G8. Well once again it sounds like GM has dropped those plans, because of the stupid lie that they can't meet the new CAFE regulations without killing off all their projects. Never mind everyone else is preparing RWD performance cars (even TOYOTA!). Never mind that Pontiac was supposed to be somewhat niche and lower volume. Never mind that GM is getting major credits for E85 capability. Never mind that RWD only takes away 1-2 mpg. Never mind that not every car has to hit 35 mpg. Never mind that they have years to get there. Nope, this is GM back to its old bad habits, taking the easy way out and killing off the good stuff then blaming other people because they don't care about making it happen. It seems like the Camaro is the last performance car we'll see out of GM that someone actually cared and put the effort into. What a way to go out, and if this was going to be the last great car from GM then we certainly have a good one, but still, this is just getting to be too much. Ford is developing some really cool V6s, ones I actually wouldn't mind owning. Honda and Toyota even have some RWD performance cars on the way. Mazda is developing the next RX8 or something similar. What do we get from GM? Excuses and project after project axed. CAFE is stupid, yes, but it affects everyone. Yet while everyone else is innovating to deal with it, GM is just sitting on their hands crying about it. You all know how much I loved the idea of the Alpha platform, and its just a kick in the gut every time they come closer to fully canceling it along with all of their other cool plans. Pretty soon GM will be making nothing but Aveos, blaming CAFE all day long while everyone else is making the performance cars we all love. If this is the way GM is headed, I'll be jumping ship after the Camaro.
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Old 02-12-2008, 07:12 PM   #2
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I find myself troubled by your comments about how bad GM is...

I'm curious what you know that they don't? Especially with Lutz at the head of it all.
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Old 02-12-2008, 09:46 PM   #3
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What else was pontiac supposed to get? A new GTO has been on and off with the same frequency as the rwd impala. The G8 wagon has been put aside because of the lack of intrest in such a vehicle. Not sure what has been cancelled that was ever a for sure go.
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Old 02-12-2008, 09:57 PM   #4
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The plan was to convert to full RWD. So you'd have a RWD replacement for the G6, the Solstice, the G8, and the G8 ST. But nope, now GM's "excitement" division is still stuck with a pretty mediocre family sedan, a rebadged Cobalt (not a bad car, but not a performance car) and worst of all, a rejected Toyota. How can you possibly praise GM for that call? It looks like I'll have to go upside down on my Cobalt, trade it in soon, and take out a looooong massive loan to get a stripped down Camaro now, because with the way GM is going about this whole CAFE thing it won't be around long.
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Old 02-13-2008, 08:13 AM   #5
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Whoa!

Please see my comments below.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by stovt001 View Post
http://www.leftlanenews.com/no-trans...r-pontiac.html

So we've known for a long time that the Trans-Am wasn't going to happen. But Pontiac was still supposed to get more RWD performance models beyond the G8. Well once again it sounds like GM has dropped those plans, because of the stupid lie that they can't meet the new CAFE regulations without killing off all their projects. Never mind everyone else is preparing RWD performance cars (even TOYOTA!). Never mind that Pontiac was supposed to be somewhat niche and lower volume. Never mind that GM is getting major credits for E85 capability. Never mind that RWD only takes away 1-2 mpg. Never mind that not every car has to hit 35 mpg. Never mind that they have years to get there. Nope, this is GM back to its old bad habits, taking the easy way out and killing off the good stuff then blaming other people because they don't care about making it happen. It seems like the Camaro is the last performance car we'll see out of GM that someone actually cared and put the effort into. What a way to go out, and if this was going to be the last great car from GM then we certainly have a good one, but still, this is just getting to be too much. Ford is developing some really cool V6s, ones I actually wouldn't mind owning. Honda and Toyota even have some RWD performance cars on the way. Mazda is developing the next RX8 or something similar. What do we get from GM? Excuses and project after project axed. CAFE is stupid, yes, but it affects everyone. Yet while everyone else is innovating to deal with it, GM is just sitting on their hands crying about it. You all know how much I loved the idea of the Alpha platform, and its just a kick in the gut every time they come closer to fully canceling it along with all of their other cool plans. Pretty soon GM will be making nothing but Aveos, blaming CAFE all day long while everyone else is making the performance cars we all love. If this is the way GM is headed, I'll be jumping ship after the Camaro.

First of all -- no one has killed off projects. Work has been stopped on projects.....for a good reason: our stockholders INSIST that we act with prudence. (and if you have a 401K or any retirement plan -- you are a GM Stockholder....) It would be foolhardy to continue working on every new project UNTIL we can figure out how we will get to an eventual 35mpg by 2020.......

Second -- I think it's completely inappropriate for you to make comments that it's a lie we can't hit CAFE numbers. We WILL hit them -- but as Bob Lutz says - "we don't know what we don't know...." -- meaning that the law changed -- BUT THE RULES STILL HAVE NOT BEEN WRITTEN...and therefore, NO manufacturer knows how to hit the number as of yet. It's kinda like me saying to you "I want you to drive down the street-- but I haven't decided just HOW I want you to drive down the street." So you assume that I want you to drive down the street on the right hand side of the street -- but my eventual rules say "it is illegal to drive on the right hand side of the street"....

See where I'm going with this?


You wrote:
".......Ford is developing some really cool V6s, ones I actually wouldn't mind owning. Honda and Toyota even have some RWD performance cars on the way. Mazda is developing the next RX8 or something similar. What do we get from GM? Excuses and project after project axed. ..."

OK -- first of all, I don't recall seeing you in any of our product planning meetings -- so you don't know that ANYTHING was axed. I can't even follow your logic to the Ford V6 thing....which has nothing to do with RWD.

Then you wrote:

"........Yet while everyone else is innovating to deal with it, GM is just sitting on their hands crying about it......."


Sooooooooo..........tell me which company has anything like the Equinox Fuel Cell vehicle?

Who is the leader in E85 -- not only with numbers of cars out there and available -- but with technology behind it to make E85 a reality across the nation as a true solution that can be done TODAY......

Who offers a better Hybrid SUV to meet the needs of those who NEED to tow-- or NEED to carry up to 8 people or who NEED 4wd?

-- and by the way -- that Tahoe2mode Hybrid that I'm referring to gets 20mpg city and 22 highway -- which, if you do your research is the same or better than a new Toyota Camry 4 cyl.

Then there's the Volt -- I could go on for days......

The list could go on -- but you, sir, are very much misinformed.

I'm sorry if I seem harsh -- but you levelled some pretty harsh accusations against GM -- and you did not have your facts straight.

We have a lot at stake at GM -- you can be assured that people are working harder than ever before to turn GM around -- how 'bout giving us a break and perhaps asking a few questions before blasting us?
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Old 02-13-2008, 08:37 AM   #6
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Harsh?!?! I thought you were kinder than I would have been....
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Old 02-13-2008, 09:48 AM   #7
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I don't know where the "negativity" towards GM comes from, and I can only chalk it up to a lack of information by those accusing GM of "sitting on their hands."

I've seen at the auto show the vehicles GM is developing for greater fuel efficiency, I've seen all of the ads showing the line of vehicles GM has developed, as well as the ones being developed. HOW CAN ANYONE see this and accuse GM of doing nothing???

Speaking only for myself, I am PROUD of GM for taking such a leading role in the development of higher efficiency vehicles, and I also have ALL THE CONFIDENCE in GM that they will meet the new CAFE mandates.

DO NOT make the mistake of accusing GM of doing nothing. I believe we'll all see GREAT performing and efficient vehicles being built GM coming in the near future.
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Old 02-13-2008, 10:31 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stovt001 View Post
and worst of all, a rejected Toyota.
If you are referring to the Vibe/Matrix, which was a joint effort between Pontiac and Toyota, I suggest you stfu, as a Vibe owner, I happen to know it's a great car, I get 34 miles to the gallon, can you say that? I can deliver large five tier wedding cakes, can you say that? No, it's not a Camaro or Corvette, but you know what, that’s not what I needed when I bought it. Not everyone on here is lucky enough to own a Camaro/Trams-am so until then shut your trap, and have some respect.
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Old 02-13-2008, 12:35 PM   #9
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WOW!!!

OK....I THINK A POINT HAS BEEN MADE. Now...no more slamming, no more negativity, no more nada.

if anyone wishes to add respectful information and/or comments, pleasae do so. If not, please refrain from posting.
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Old 02-13-2008, 12:36 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by stovt001 View Post
The plan was to convert to full RWD. So you'd have a RWD replacement for the G6, the Solstice, the G8, and the G8 ST. But nope, now GM's "excitement" division is still stuck with a pretty mediocre family sedan, a rebadged Cobalt (not a bad car, but not a performance car) and worst of all, a rejected Toyota. How can you possibly praise GM for that call? It looks like I'll have to go upside down on my Cobalt, trade it in soon, and take out a looooong massive loan to get a stripped down Camaro now, because with the way GM is going about this whole CAFE thing it won't be around long.
THAT WOULDN'T BE A COBALT SPORT WOULD IT?

VISIT AN AUTO SHOW YOU WILL FEEL BETTER IN THE MORNING (ABOUT GM)

Last edited by Georgianne; 02-13-2008 at 12:41 PM. Reason: A FEW MORE DETAILS
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Old 02-13-2008, 01:41 PM   #11
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I'm so not going to post in this thread after I say one thing:

misinformed people usually make misinformed assumptions.
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Old 02-13-2008, 09:37 PM   #12
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If you are referring to the Vibe/Matrix, which was a joint effort between Pontiac and Toyota, I suggest you stfu, as a Vibe owner, I happen to know it's a great car, I get 34 miles to the gallon, can you say that? I can deliver large five tier wedding cakes, can you say that? No, it's not a Camaro or Corvette, but you know what, that’s not what I needed when I bought it. Not everyone on here is lucky enough to own a Camaro/Trams-am so until then shut your trap, and have some respect.
I'm not saying it needs to be a Camaro. The Vibe/Matrix is way more of a Toyota vehicle than a GM vehicle. Now I'm all for hatchbacks, absolutely love them, but sadly the Vibe/Matrix are not offered in proper hot hatch trim, something at the level of the GTI, Mazdaspeed3, or new HHR SS. Therefore I don't see it really being fit for GM's excitement division. And by being a rejected Toyota, well, the Matrix just doesn't sell. When I was working at a Toyota dealership, we'd sell 5-10 Corollas a day, 20 some Camrys, 3-4 Prius (Prii?), and maybe 1 Matrix every few days. By the way, I don't own a Camaro or a Trans-am, as you imply. I own a Cobalt. It gets 34 mpg too. Anyway, my point is that Pontiac deserves so truly sporty cars, which I do not feel the Vibe is. Practical? Yes, I'm not denying that. But it just isn't sporty.

As far as the new Ford TC V6, I'm not saying it has to do with RWD, but it has to do with Ford's response to the new CAFE rules. A V6 making great power and economy? Now that is exciting. It strikes the same great balance as the I4 in the Solstice/Sky GXP, and I'd love to see GM do something like that in V6 form, then put it in a BMW 3-series size RWD performance coupe/sedan. In case the Camaro doesn't work out for me (God forbid) something like that would have been my ideal backup, but it doesn't look like we'll get that now.

I'm sorry to get everyone all upset, but you have to understand that we still have to be skeptical of the corporate culture in Detroit. Sure things have changed a lot in the past few years, but Lutz won't be around forever and it is really easy to slip back into the same bad habits. Take the whole rebadging thing as an example. One thing GM swore up and down it would change was its practice of just rebadging the same car for different brands. Remember the Cimmaron (spelling?) Yeah, I was hoping GM would never do that again. But look at what happened: GM took a good thing with the Lambda crossovers then went back to the old practice of rebadging it a million times over. If three wasn't bad enough, now Chevy gets one too. So you have 4 nearly identical vehicles (the Enclave being the only really different one) competing for the same customers. Imagine if GM stopped fighting itself and instead of funding 4 marketing campaigns just funded 2 (upper end Enclave and more entry level one of the other three). Maybe then Ford wouldn't nearly match its sales with its Edge alone. I think we can all agree the Lambdas are superior to the Edge, but because they're fighting against themselves one Ford product nearly beats all of them combined. They did the smart thing and made two versions: one high end and one for the common man. So Lutz is still going strong and already we're slipping back into the old habits. Pontiac is still getting a rebadged Cobalt, and that doesn't look like it will change anytime soon. Can you blame me for being skeptical?

As far as the hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, doesn't the Honda Clarity have a wider distribution and longer range at the moment? Correct me if I'm wrong...

I noticed no defense was offered for the G6, so I assume everyone else feels like it deserves more, as I do. Once again I'm still hoping it gets an Alpha-based replacement or something similar, but I won't hold my breath. I know you all want me to believe GM is doing the absolute best it can, and maybe it is, but whatever the case this all looks too depressingly familiar. A few years of good calls can't make up for 30 years of bad judgments.
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Old 02-13-2008, 09:41 PM   #13
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THAT WOULDN'T BE A COBALT SPORT WOULD IT?

VISIT AN AUTO SHOW YOU WILL FEEL BETTER IN THE MORNING (ABOUT GM)
If Pontiac is going to use a rebadged Cobalt, they should at least get the sportiest trim, not the semi-sporty trim. I get the reasoning behind giving Pontiac an entry level car, but since it is supposed to be the "excitement" division, why not give them the supercharged version?
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Old 02-13-2008, 09:55 PM   #14
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If Pontiac is going to use a rebadged Cobalt, they should at least get the sportiest trim, not the semi-sporty trim. I get the reasoning behind giving Pontiac an entry level car, but since it is supposed to be the "excitement" division, why not give them the supercharged version?
because the supercharged one is outdated now there's a turbo'd one
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