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Old 03-30-2013, 10:34 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Cheveey57 View Post
Engineering is awesome but as for those hideous taillights, you say 69 Camaro? I say not at all you made them so they could be used in Europe. They are more remanisant of 200sx or a prelude or..... My point is they are not Camaro and they are ugly. Some have said see them in person and they'll grow on you. I say if they have to grow on you well then you never liked them in the first place.
I was one of the many the hated the mailslot, so much so when I order the 2010 I got an RS . Looks after all what Attracts me first to a car. Design is key. Then I look into the engineering. The b pillar was not on the original concept a and I still hate it. It could've been produced that way just like the vert.
It is interesting though to see how many people wanted to draw and quarter the design team, but will now blow smoke up your butt ans say you guys are the best I don't know you and you may very well be a nice guy, but the tail lights weren't for us they were for the ease of selling to a broader market, and they still suck. That being said if I could order a z28 with 2013 tail lights I would tomorrow.
The word you use. "Suck"

I'm not sure that everyone on this site knows what that means, but if you would like to demonstrate it, perhaps someone would watch.
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Old 03-30-2013, 10:34 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by SilverSurfer21 View Post
Scott, I mean you no disrespect. But being a retired GM Engineering veteran of over 30 years and having bought a brand new 1973 Z28 in 1973 at 19 years old I can,'t hold back my opinion. When I first saw the 1968 Camaro I was a huge fan at 15 years old. I had to have a Camaro. I am now 59, soon to be 60 and through the years I watched the Camaro grow uglier and uglier with every change. This was partly because GM would cut funding half way into a design change and ruin the recipe. I watched it with the Oldsmobile Cutlass too. It was horrible to watch great cars ruined by bean counters instead of creative designers.

The reason the 5th generation Camaro was such a great success was all the input by the Focus team. They were not invited this time. How quickly GM forgets. The front of the car isn't that bad but the rear didn't get much thought at all. There are a lot of people on here that has "the Emperor's new clothes" syndrome. Just because you say everyone put in hard work in this redesign doesn't make it not suck. Those taillights are a big fail. They wrap around and are not flat like the 69'. They look like sedan taillights. Cheap at that and only the SS gets LEDs. Not modern in any way and they don't look at all like the 69's. It wasn't until the 4th generation did GM finally start making the Camaro look better after nearly twenty years of ugly designs. Then what, they stopped making them.

I can't believe that only two people besides me has the nuts to tell you the truth. Hence the Emperor's new clothes syndrome. Just because you say " we tried really hard," people feel bad that they insulted you so they are kissing your behind. Don't take it personal. The car has some good attributes but also has some bad ones. That's life.

I am in the process of buying a 2013 Camaro. I had a 2010 Camaro. I loved it. I won't be buying a redesigned new one until the 6th Generation comes out. Hopefully there will be real peoples input in that one.
My thoughts exactly. Amen.
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Old 03-30-2013, 10:35 PM   #122
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Thank you Scott and thank all of team Camaro for me. The car you all have given us is perfection. You have made a dream I thought had died in 2002 come true for me. I have loved Camaro since I was 4 years old and the 3rd gens were new. It hurt watching the camaro die off in 2002. I never thought I'd ever get to own a brand new Camaro. But here it is, back and better than ever and sitting in my driveway. You have given us not only the mighty ZL1 but a Z/28 truly worthy of the moniker. The car is outstanding and i am thankful GM has an amazing team that loves this car as much as I do. Thank you for breathing life back into an enthusiasts dream.

It's not only the best time to be an enthusiast, it's also the best time to be a GM technician. can't wait to call dibs on the first z/28 PDI that comes in.
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Old 03-30-2013, 10:40 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Cheveey57 View Post
I said I go by looks first then the engineering.
That's your comeback? Almost as bad as the tail lights. Lol

I asked because you made a few declarations. Those declarations were, for the most part, false. The "B" pillar has been discussed ad nauseum for the past 4 years.

You are certainly entitled to your opinions. That does not mean that everyone else agrees - - just as they don't agree with me or the rest of the team.
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Old 03-30-2013, 10:52 PM   #124
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Nice read, not a fan of the Z/28, my giant plump a:;: needs a nice ZL1 seat to sit in. I appreciate your post, sorry you have to put up with the nasty comments. But some are who they are.
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Old 03-30-2013, 10:55 PM   #125
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fbodfather refresh is great I just wish the front wasn't narrow so you can see more of led halo rings I always thought they are great but Camaro 5th gen will always be the best and most beautiful !! just that narrow grill lol !!
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Old 03-30-2013, 10:57 PM   #126
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I totally understood the Z/28 before Scott's post and am happy to see it back and with the true track prowess it should possess. Great post and insight for those who didn't understand before. If I was to buy a Camaro next year, I would still choose the ZL1 for what my purpose is, daily driver, weekend canyon carver and occasional trackday/drag strip fun

The ZL1 already destroyed nearly every car they threw it up against at last year's VIR Lighting Lap, and I can't wait to see what the Z/28 does!
..better than the ZL1 by about three seconds around Milford...amazing.
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Old 03-30-2013, 10:58 PM   #127
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Our 2012 Camaro has become my family's hobby (modifying, shows, etc.). My wife and I were never really into cars before we bought this one. I think GM/Chevy has done a great job with the Camaro. The unveiling of the Z/28 is just another positive step forward. Thank you for building such a great car!
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Old 03-30-2013, 10:59 PM   #128
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And in rush the sheep of yay sayers. No wonder popular vote is so easy.
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:00 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by SilverSurfer21 View Post
Scott, I mean you no disrespect. But being a retired GM Engineering veteran of over 30 years and having bought a brand new 1973 Z28 in 1973 at 19 years old I can,'t hold back my opinion. When I first saw the 1968 Camaro I was a huge fan at 15 years old. I had to have a Camaro. I am now 59, soon to be 60 and through the years I watched the Camaro grow uglier and uglier with every change. This was partly because GM would cut funding half way into a design change and ruin the recipe. I watched it with the Oldsmobile Cutlass too. It was horrible to watch great cars ruined by bean counters instead of creative designers.

The reason the 5th generation Camaro was such a great success was all the input by the Focus team. They were not invited this time. How quickly GM forgets. The front of the car isn't that bad but the rear didn't get much thought at all. There are a lot of people on here that has "the Emperor's new clothes" syndrome. Just because you say everyone put in hard work in this redesign doesn't make it not suck. Those taillights are a big fail. They wrap around and are not flat like the 69'. They look like sedan taillights. Cheap at that and only the SS gets LEDs. Not modern in any way and they don't look at all like the 69's. It wasn't until the 4th generation did GM finally start making the Camaro look better after nearly twenty years of ugly designs. Then what, they stopped making them.

I can't believe that only two people besides me has the nuts to tell you the truth. Hence the Emperor's new clothes syndrome. Just because you say " we tried really hard," people feel bad that they insulted you so they are kissing your behind. Don't take it personal. The car has some good attributes but also has some bad ones. That's life.

I am in the process of buying a 2013 Camaro. I had a 2010 Camaro. I loved it. I won't be buying a redesigned new one until the 6th Generation comes out. Hopefully there will be real peoples input in that one.
SilverSurfer - I'm not sure if I know you or not - but let me respond to your thoughts.

We're about the same age. Your opinion is that the Camaro got uglier and uglier through the years. I don't agree with you and I don't think a whole bunch of Camaro Enthusiasts would agree. True, it's always been an internal struggle between design, engineering, manufacturing, and finance. That's the nature of the beast. I don't know of another automotive manufacturer where this doesn't happen to one extent or another. If it's true that you were an engineer for GM for 30 years, I wonder how loudly you protested when something was proposed that didn't make sense. I'm not saying you don't but I've sat in meetings where a lot of people sit there like bumps on a log during a very "spirited" discussion - and others of us spoke up and argued. We didn't always win - that's impossible But these very same bumps on logs would then leave the meeting -and suddenly find their voice and complain after the fact........... I hope that wasn't you.

"The Emperor Wears No Clothes" I think, does not apply on this website or any other - and the proof is the many posts that precipitated this post as a way of explaining WHY things were done. I've been on this site from the very beginning - and in fact I was on many sites when it was not 'blessed' by GM to do so. I'm here to tell you that the people on this site have no problems telling me exactly what they think. HOW they say it goes a long way. (...such as using fowl language-- and when people behave badly, I tend to sometimes discount their comments....)

As you are a retired GM Employee, I really wish you'd not use words like "Suck" as I don't think it's befitting the position you held and I don't think it reflects well on your fellow GM Employees and Retirees.

The LED Tail Lamps come with the RS package. The regular tail lamps are incandescent. There are reasons - one is cost. Another is that not everyone loves LEDs. Further, we listened to our enthusiasts who told us that there should be greater differentiation between an RS and a Non-RS. Yes, we listened to our customers and we will continue to do so. So we have two different types of tail-lamps on the 2014.

You may not like the tail lamps - but if you go back and read what I wrote at the beginning of this thread, I explained that a lot of people hated the current lights as well - but they evidently got used to them.

As to 'real' people input, I can't think of another car in this industry that takes more input from their enthusiasts.
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:02 PM   #130
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And in rush the sheep of yay sayers. No wonder popular vote is so easy.
Not everybody hates it
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:04 PM   #131
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thanks for spending your time to write an interesting message Scott.. I think the refresh is moving in the right direction..
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:07 PM   #132
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Great read. Thank you for keeping the history alive
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:10 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by fbodfather View Post
SilverSurfer - I'm not sure if I know you or not - but let me respond to your thoughts.

We're about the same age. Your opinion is that the Camaro got uglier and uglier through the years. I don't agree with you and I don't think a whole bunch of Camaro Enthusiasts would agree. True, it's always been an internal struggle between design, engineering, manufacturing, and finance. That's the nature of the beast. I don't know of another automotive manufacturer where this doesn't happen to one extent or another. If it's true that you were an engineer for GM for 30 years, I wonder how loudly you protested when something was proposed that didn't make sense. I'm not saying you don't but I've sat in meetings where a lot of people sit there like bumps on a log during a very "spirited" discussion - and others of us spoke up and argued. We didn't always win - that's impossible But these very same bumps on logs would then leave the meeting -and suddenly find their voice and complain after the fact........... I hope that wasn't you.

"The Emperor Wears No Clothes" I think, does not apply on this website or any other - and the proof is the many posts that precipitated this post as a way of explaining WHY things were done. I've been on this site from the very beginning - and in fact I was on many sites when it was not 'blessed' by GM to do so. I'm here to tell you that the people on this site have no problems telling me exactly what they think. HOW they say it goes a long way. (...such as using fowl language-- and when people behave badly, I tend to sometimes discount their comments....)

As you are a retired GM Employee, I really wish you'd not use words like "Suck" as I don't think it's befitting the position you held and I don't think it reflects well on your fellow GM Employees and Retirees.

The LED Tail Lamps come with the RS package. The regular tail lamps are incandescent. There are reasons - one is cost. Another is that not everyone loves LEDs. Further, we listened to our enthusiasts who told us that there should be greater differentiation between an RS and a Non-RS. Yes, we listened to our customers and we will continue to do so. So we have two different types of tail-lamps on the 2014.

You may not like the tail lamps - but if you go back and read what I wrote at the beginning of this thread, I explained that a lot of people hated the current lights as well - but they evidently got used to them.

As to 'real' people input, I can't think of another car in this industry that takes more input from their enthusiasts.
I for one am glad you listen to owners... Now one request I have made since I purchased my 2010 Camaro... Please make a handling package available for the V6 models. I love my V6 I just would like a factory handling package.. Maybe go old school and call it the F-41 suspension...
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:12 PM   #134
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Thank you,Thank you Thank you, I love the 2014 SS and the Z/28 makes me feel 25+ years younger when I had lust for a Lamborghini Countach on a poster that hung on my wall. (In Farmington Hills). Fast forward to today and I just hang my "poster" as the wallpaper on my laptop. (The 2014 Z/28)

I have to admit I was not in love with the 2013 SS/1LE that I was about to order....I loved the performance numbers and available aftermarket support....but felt is was lacking something in the "gotta have it" department for me.

The 2014 update took care of that and the Recaro option is the icing on the cake! After the launch I was corresponding with Becky D and told her I want the first Z/28 from Rogers if I can afford it (wife vetoed that one....and then I came to my financial senses as well ) So I asked for the first 2014 SS/1LE w/Recaros she delivers. My order will be placed as soon as it is open.....

I only have one request.....Can I please have my car before Dream Cruise (week)? I am only 1.5 miles from Woodward.

Thanks,
Matt
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:17 PM   #135
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I will just say that everytime I walk into the garage I smile. I purchased this car brand new December 29th 2010, and nothing greater then seeing other people get excited when they see the car or when you cross paths with another 5th gen and get the thumbs up as you pass..

I personally love this moment in time we have with the Camaro. I have always loved the first gen's, and the 70 1/2 split bumper was always one of my faves as well but I was never able to have one..

I have debated many times in trading up to the ZL1 but I have hard time wanting to part with the SGM, plus the work I have done to the SS also holds me back..

Anyway I will finish with saying thank you Scott and the rest of the team for bringing the gen 5 to life. It is the nicest car I have ever owned and it turns the heads of lovers and haters alike..

Peace to you and yours!!
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Old 03-30-2013, 11:20 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Dropspeed View Post
Thank you,Thank you Thank you, I love the 2014 SS and the Z/28 makes me feel 25+ years younger when I had lust for a Lamborghini Countach on a poster that hung on my wall. (In Farmington Hills). Fast forward to today and I just hang my "poster" as the wallpaper on my laptop. (The 2014 Z/28)

I have to admit I was not in love with the 2013 SS/1LE that I was about to order....I loved the performance numbers and available aftermarket support....but felt is was lacking something in the "gotta have it" department for me.

The 2014 update took care of that and the Recaro option is the icing on the cake! After the launch I was corresponding with Becky D and told her I want the first Z/28 from Rogers if I can afford it (wife vetoed that one....and then I came to my financial senses as well ) So I asked for the first 2014 SS/1LE w/Recaros she delivers. My order will be placed as soon as it is open.....

I only have one request.....Can I please have my car before Dream Cruise (week)? I am only 1.5 miles from Woodward.

Thanks,
Matt
Congrats on your '14 order, those Recaro seats Rock sorry, off-topic, back to our regularly scheduled program.
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