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Old 03-30-2013, 09:15 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by SilverSurfer21 View Post
Scott, I mean you no disrespect. But being a retired GM Engineering veteran of over 30 years and having bought a brand new 1973 Z28 in 1973 at 19 years old I can,'t hold back my opinion. When I first saw the 1968 Camaro I was a huge fan at 15 years old. I had to have a Camaro. I am now 59, soon to be 60 and through the years I watched the Camaro grow uglier and uglier with every change. This was partly because GM would cut funding half way into a design change and ruin the recipe. I watched it with the Oldsmobile Cutlass too. It was horrible to watch great cars ruined by bean counters instead of creative designers.

The reason the 5th generation Camaro was such a great success was all the input by the Focus team. They were not invited this time. How quickly GM forgets. The front of the car isn't that bad but the rear didn't get much thought at all. There are a lot of people on here that has "the Emperor's new clothes" syndrome. Just because you say everyone put in hard work in this redesign doesn't make it not suck. Those taillights are a big fail. They wrap around and are not flat like the 69'. They look like sedan taillights. Cheap at that and only the SS gets LEDs. Not modern in any way and they don't look at all like the 69's. It wasn't until the 4th generation did GM finally start making the Camaro look better after nearly twenty years of ugly designs. Then what, they stopped making them.

I can't believe that only two people besides me has the nuts to tell you the truth. Hence the Emperor's new clothes syndrome. Just because you say " we tried really hard," people feel bad that they insulted you so they are kissing your behind. Don't take it personal. The car has some good attributes but also has some bad ones. That's life.

I am in the process of buying a 2013 Camaro. I had a 2010 Camaro. I loved it. I won't be buying redesigned new one until the 6th Generation comes out. Hopefully there will be real peoples input in that one.
Your post sir is a FAIL. Evidently you have no clue about the redesign. For instance, the LED Taillights are not a SS only item, it's a RS package item. I wonder if you have even read one word Scott wrote...
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Old 03-30-2013, 09:18 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Angrybird 12 View Post
Your post sir is a FAIL. Evidently you have no clue about the redesign. For instance, the LED Taillights are not a SS only item, it's a RS package item. I wonder if you have even read one word Scott wrote...

Excuse me! You missed the whole point. LEDs are modern and should be part of the whole change not just an option at $1600 as in RS.
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Old 03-30-2013, 09:25 PM   #101
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Excuse me! You missed the whole point. LEDs are modern and should be part of the whole change not just an option at $1600 as in RS.
LEDs is what make the RS package more different than the standard tail, also explained by Scott that people wanted more different look for paying that extra money for the RS package. Anyway you states they were only available on the SS which I pointed out was untrue... He also pointed out many of the changes were from input received from Camaro owners. They listened... Just because you do not like the changes does not mean they did the things you accuse them of. They just made different decisions than you would have...
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Old 03-30-2013, 09:27 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by SilverSurfer21 View Post
Excuse me! You missed the whole point. LEDs are modern and should be part of the whole change not just an option at $1600 as in RS.
I thought your other post made some excellent points...I'll say this, though, as much as he said they listened to what those who now gripe wanted on the car...they got it, and now are unhappy...that is a disaster for the future...

I would rather see the design come from those who know what they are doing, over knee-jerk reactions by anonymous posters on this forum...lol

I wouldn't call it Emperor's New Clothes Syndrome, rather Leadership that must be exercised....
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Old 03-30-2013, 09:28 PM   #103
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Excuse me! You missed the whole point. LEDs are modern and should be part of the whole change not just an option at $1600 as in RS.
As an engineer one would think you would know the difference between inspiration and replication, as you allude to about the taillights. Like Scott said some people will like and some won't, you're one of them. That's fine, doesn't mean the watering down process has begun until the sales says otherwise, you and others can speculate all you want, but the truth of it all won't be recognized until the #'s are there.

And if you were a GM engineer, weren't you part of the "watering down" process?. How would you feel if someone insulted your work?
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Old 03-30-2013, 09:32 PM   #104
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Thank you for the insightful posts, Scott, and for the distinguished manner in which they were written. I can imagine the hours and headaches that went into the updates. The Camaro has been on top for 3 years and creates so much passion. There was/is a lot on the line.

I do have to say that the presentation of the SS on the morning talk show was terrible. The camera angles did not do the car justice and even made it appear like there were changes beyond what was truly updated. I was one of the ones initially turned off by the back end when I saw the footage, but I reserved judgement for the reveal day. I hooked up to the live stream while at work, and when I saw the SS roll out I felt a wave of relief. I could already tell that the updates looked way better than how the morning show had presented them. The morning show seems better set up to film people than machine.

While I am not planning on giving my girl up just yet (haven't even had her a year yet!), I do feel that the tweaks made for 2014 were done respectfully. Thank you for mingling and sharing with us, and I apologize for those who are disrespectful. It is fine to not be in love with the updates, but it not fine to personally insult someone just because the safety of the Internet allows it.

Also.... I am another owner who is wondering when we will get a glimpse at the V6!
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Old 03-30-2013, 09:38 PM   #105
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The Z/28 as released is a performance Camaro par excellence. Faster than the ZL1 by 3 seconds around Milford is outstanding. A heightening of the bar. I'd trade in my ZL1 for it in a heartbeat, but this car will be a low number, difficult item to acquire. But, I'll take mine in blue....to match my '73....
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Old 03-30-2013, 09:44 PM   #106
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Scott,
Thank you for being "honest" and telling the story the way it should be told.
We as Camaro lovers should never have to ask for more.
The 2014 is a very well done refresh and the Z/28 is way more than any could have expected.
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Old 03-30-2013, 09:46 PM   #107
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It will be nice seeing the real Z/28 hitting the streets again. The new restyle is nicely done. Front end looks alot more aggressive and the 69 inspired tail lights are a nice touch.
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Old 03-30-2013, 09:54 PM   #108
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You can go ahead and compare them and they are really similar. Although they will obviously not be the same since its a RETRO and not the ORIGINAL. You also can't be speaking for all, when you say "the tail lights weren't for us" they maybe weren't for you specifically, but that does not mean everybody thinks like you.
If you read the other 4 or 5 posts with 100's of negative posts on the tail lights you would see that I was referring to us. If you like them or are one of them that seem to be jumping on the fbod bandwagon so be it. They were made to make exporting them easier, ugly or not.
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Old 03-30-2013, 09:55 PM   #109
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so..when are we going to see V6 models?(or should we just close our eyes and imagine the SS w/o the extractor)..which may not look bad at all..and if you're going to make a die-hard track car Z28, why not just gut the inside, leave a driver's seat, include a roll bar, forget the VIN#..cuz the buyers are saying that's the way it should be, blah, blah, blah. I don't want to see it on the public road anyway because it doesn't belong there...my 02.
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Old 03-30-2013, 09:56 PM   #110
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Nice post Scott.

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I continually remind myself that much of this behavior is driven by passion. I’m also not naive enough to believe that it’s all passion. It stuns me to see remarks turn into a ‘contest’ of sorts to see who can hurl the best ‘insult.’ I don’t know when this became proper behavior in our society – but in my book, it’s improper and some people should be ashamed. Frankly, I’m more inclined to take opinions from well thought out posts than one that utilizes bad language and insults.
I agree - it is sad. I blame this on the general negativity presented by the media, as well as the internet - people seem to feel it's ok to bash away when they're typing away at the computer. In most situations, I doubt these people would say these things if the conversation was in person.

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“…..this car should come in at 40K!...” (even though we’ve not discussed price as of yet—and frankly, 40K is as attainable as me being elected as President of the United States……….)
Be careful, there are probably several people on this forum that would vote for you as President (btw - if that does happen, can we get a z/28 priced at $40k?)
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Old 03-30-2013, 10:02 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by Angrybird 12 View Post
Your post sir is a FAIL. Evidently you have no clue about the redesign. For instance, the LED Taillights are not a SS only item, it's a RS package item. I wonder if you have even read one word Scott wrote...
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion regardless of what you may think of his post. Not everyone is going to like the appearance of the refresh. I will say those that speak out with their honest opinions which sometimes may not be positive all the time, most likely receive negative feedback. Take this into account "it's not personal, it's just business" and GM is a business with dedicated men and women who brought their ideas into blossom.

Me personally do not like the rear end of the refresh but that doesn't mean I hate the brand for it. It means I'll end up keeping my 5th Gen ZL1 until the 6th Gen is released if that ends up appealing to me. That's all he said. He's has a 2010 and now attempting to get a 2013. He dislikes the refresh, which is fine. Scott and Team Camaro did a great job. #1 in 3 consecutive years means that they are doing something right. But not all of us find the refresh visually appealing. Nothing is wrong with feeling that way, it's a human emotion.

Now him being a GM engineering veteran, etc is a subject that I or you probably have no idea about. What he knows will and most likely be different than what we know unless you've worked for GM in some sort of way.

Negativity, positivity and overall criticism means we all have some sort of passion regarding the brand, the Camaro as we know it. We all have one thing in common, we want to see the Chevrolet Camaro succeed. Period. So when you see comments that may seem negative in nature remind yourself we all are just extremely passionate about the topic.
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Old 03-30-2013, 10:08 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by FINALLYSATISFIED View Post
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion regardless of what you may think of his post. Not everyone is going to like the appearance of the refresh. I will say those that speak out with their honest opinions which sometimes may not be positive all the time, most likely receive negative feedback. Take this into account "it's not personal, it's just business" and GM is a business with dedicated men and women who brought their ideas into blossom.

Me personally do not like the rear end of the refresh but that doesn't mean I hate the brand for it. It means I'll end up keeping my 5th Gen ZL1 until the 6th Gen is released if that ends up appealing to me. That's all he said. He's has a 2010 and now attempting to get a 2013. He dislikes the refresh, which is fine.

Now him being a GM engineering veteran, etc is a subject that I or you probably have no idea about. What he knows will and most likely be different than what we know unless you've worked for GM in some sort of way.

Negativity, positivity and overall criticism means we all have some sort of passion regarding the brand, the Camaro as we know it. We all have one thing in common, we want to see the Chevrolet Camaro succeed. Period. So when you see comments that may seem negative in nature remind yourself we all are just extremely passionate about the topic.
What I was commenting on is not if he liked or hated the refresh but his implications that Scott and the Camaro team made all the changes on their own with no input for Camaro enthusiasts, of which Scott explained the changes were made based on input and wants from owners. Including what the Z/28 should be. Also his statement the LED tail lights were only on the SS which also Scott addressed. Yes everyone is entitled to their opinion. But to say things that are untrue about the redesign is unfair.
Just remember the last part of Scott's first post.
Quote:
We refreshed the front fascia to make the car more intimidating. We made the car look wider. AND – we made the SS look different than the V6 model. (at your request, by the way….) Further, there’s more differentiation between an RS Camaro and a non-RS Camaro – both in the front AND rear. (again, by your request…)

The tail-lamps are a tribute to the 1969 Camaro. (go study the 1969 Camaro tail-lamps -- both RS and Non-RS and you’ll start to appreciate why we did what we did.)

Remember those ‘poor unfortunates’ who hated the slits in the rear fascia for the back-up lights? Well – we listened to you. Shame on us.

The back-up lights have been moved into the tail-lamp assemblies. For those of you who felt the rear was “too busy” or “too tall” – well – we fixed that…..

For those of you who told us we should have put LED tail-lamps in the car? Well – we did on the RS models….

Some hated the ‘mail-slot’ front fascia on the SS. (some even went so far as to fill the slots on their Camaros in with various types of filler……) Well – we listened to you as well. (off with our heads…) The air extractor on the SS? It’s functional. (you asked for it….) It also just happens to be the same width as the reverse Mohawk in the roof.

And for the record – the V6 does not have the extractor in the hood – once again differentiating the SS from the non-SS.
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