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Old 05-20-2013, 09:27 PM   #226
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Worth repeating for those non-believers who continue to write thesis after thesis when all that is needed is a direct comparison using the same shoes on the same "test lap". Don't know why so many folks demean and degrade others for such a simple request. They call the ZL1 owners "jealous" etc etc....

Such childish playground talk. Comon GM if you are going to publish a 3 Second GAP..... show us the proof with the same tires in use. GM has the money to do this I am sure.

I may have to get Pu$$y Galore to be their driver however, just to make it a little more exciting to watch.
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Old 05-20-2013, 09:32 PM   #227
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3 second gap - with factory optioned tires. 1-2 second gap with the same tires. What's the big heartburn over comparing cars as they are delivered from the factory? Not a new concept.
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Old 05-20-2013, 09:42 PM   #228
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Thanks for your contribution Jim but as I pointed out and many have, nobody is questioning this. Everybody knows track tires on the track out-perform street tires. What some people assumedWHO MAY I ASK? was that the only thing that made the Z/28 faster than the ZL1 were the Trofeos and that GM isn't posting the Z/28's Nurburgring times because they're embarrassed and trying to hide something. THAT IS INNACCURATE and PUTTING WORDS IN PEOPLES MOUTHS Mark Stielow is legendary for his abilities and knows very well the difference tires makes. He doesn't think that just putting Trofeos on the Z/28 is all he needs to do. He knows since it's a track car he HAS to develop it for track tires since that's what Z/28 owners are going to be using on it. He's tweaking everything on the car to handle the g-forces it's going to sustain on the track with track tires, hence the brakes, the custom shocks, the differential, and everything else. He knows what he's doing which is a point some have apparently either missed or just don't want to acknowledge.

You sound experienced and I appreciate your contribution to the thread.
So, inquiring minds would simply like to know how the ZL1 would fare on that same TEST LAP using the same tires. No other inferences. No other innuendo. No other assumptions.
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Old 05-20-2013, 09:45 PM   #229
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Thanks for your contribution Jim but as I pointed out and many have, nobody is questioning this. Everybody knows track tires on the track out-perform street tires. What some people assumed was that the only thing that made the Z/28 faster than the ZL1 were the Trofeos and that GM isn't posting the Z/28's Nurburgring times because they're embarrassed and trying to hide something. Mark Stielow is legendary for his abilities and knows very well the difference tires makes. He doesn't think that just putting Trofeos on the Z/28 is all he needs to do. He knows since it's a track car he HAS to develop it for track tires since that's what Z/28 owners are going to be using on it. He's tweaking everything on the car to handle the g-forces it's going to sustain on the track with track tires, hence the brakes, the custom shocks, the differential, and everything else. He knows what he's doing which is a point some have apparently either missed or just don't want to acknowledge.

You sound experienced and I appreciate your contribution to the thread.
Okay, I take back my pokes at your driving ability. Nice comment. Thanks.

You are right and the Z28 is still a work in progress, so we can expect even more performance and better performance numbers.

My only gripe is still with the tire to tire issue, I do agree that this Mark know tons and has huge experience in track tuning and set up. I'm sure, though, that with this experiece he will agree that these tires are what gave the current 3 sec gap. If some want to call it a glory lap, fine, that is what is was for the Z28. We just want a fair comparison if you are gonna compare.
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Old 05-20-2013, 09:54 PM   #230
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What's the big heartburn over comparing cars as they are delivered from the factory? Not a new concept.
Exactly. This is nothing new....
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Old 05-20-2013, 09:54 PM   #231
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Okay, I take back my pokes at your driving ability. Nice comment. Thanks.

You are right and the Z28 is still a work in progress, so we can expect even more performance and better performance numbers.

My only gripe is still with the tire to tire issue, I do agree that this Mark know tons and has huge experience in track tuning and set up. I'm sure, though, that with this experiece he will agree that these tires are what gave the current 3 sec gap. If some want to call it a glory lap, fine, that is what is was for the Z28. We just want a fair comparison if you are gonna compare.
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Old 05-20-2013, 10:07 PM   #232
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Worth repeating for those non-believers who continue to write thesis after thesis when all that is needed is a direct comparison using the same shoes on the same "test lap". Don't know why so many folks demean and degrade others for such a simple request. They call the ZL1 owners "jealous" etc etc....

Such childish playground talk. Comon GM if you are going to publish a 3 Second GAP..... show us the proof with the same tires in use. GM has the money to do this I am sure.

I may have to get Pu$$y Galore to be their driver however, just to make it a little more exciting to watch.
non-issue

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Old 05-20-2013, 10:08 PM   #233
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So, inquiring minds would simply like to know how the ZL1 would fare on that same TEST LAP using the same tires. No other inferences. No other innuendo. No other assumptions.
non-issue

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Old 05-20-2013, 10:09 PM   #234
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Okay, I take back my pokes at your driving ability. Nice comment. Thanks.

You are right and the Z28 is still a work in progress, so we can expect even more performance and better performance numbers.

My only gripe is still with the tire to tire issue, I do agree that this Mark know tons and has huge experience in track tuning and set up. I'm sure, though, that with this experiece he will agree that these tires are what gave the current 3 sec gap. If some want to call it a glory lap, fine, that is what is was for the Z28. We just want a fair comparison if you are gonna compare.
The car's not done yet; it's a non-issue. (And my compliment was to Jim).

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Old 05-20-2013, 10:19 PM   #235
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Opinions = too many

Opinions supported with objective facts and analysis = way, way too few.
Your welcome, and I totally agree!

But based on the last few comments, it looks like all I got was

LOL.......

so I'll bow out for now. We'll know more later this year.
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Old 05-20-2013, 10:31 PM   #236
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Your welcome, and I totally agree!

But based on the last few comments, it looks like all I got was

LOL.......
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:04 PM   #237
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http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f...z-28-a-117322/

Under the cutting weight section, it clearly states that the Z/28 Camaro will have the best power to weight ratio of any version of the Camaro.
Thank you for the follow-up. Intriguing comment in the article and said unambiguously. Let's see how things shake out.

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That's not actually the press release it's a article written by a staff writer, It's more than likely a error..... I still hope it's right though.
Me too. Better source than a non-insider magazine article though eh? Not sure what to think may happen because I don't know the
team's track record like many of you do. They seem to provide some surprises so I remain open minded.

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Your welcome, and I totally agree!

But based on the last few comments, it looks like all I got was

LOL.......

so I'll bow out for now. We'll know more later this year.
Yes, some folks are so intent on creating their own reality, it becomes useless to try and debate from an analytical perspective. The facts will come out and then we can all know what the reality will be

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Old 05-20-2013, 11:10 PM   #238
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Me too. Better source than a non-insider magazine article though eh?
True!
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:26 PM   #239
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We want to see that because GM claimed to have engineered this drastically better track car than a zl1, but compared the two while putting street tires on one and road race (slick compound) on the other. If GM wants to market their new product by comparing it to the older one, run the both in running shoes, instead of having one wear slippers (pun intended)
Yeah but would you ZL1 guys want 50 treadwear rated tires? That will add quite a bit of cost to the monthly payment to cover for those expensive tires. We should be glad GM actually made the car...granted its not going to be affordable to many.
But there is no way the Z28 is going to outrun the Z06...same engine except the Vette has 600 less pounds to carry. And that little aero kit is not going to make that much of a difference to put the Z28 ahead of the Z06
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:53 PM   #240
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Worth repeating for those non-believers who continue to write thesis after thesis when all that is needed is a direct comparison using the same shoes on the same "test lap". Don't know why so many folks demean and degrade others for such a simple request. They call the ZL1 owners "jealous" etc etc....

Such childish playground talk. Comon GM if you are going to publish a 3 Second GAP..... show us the proof with the same tires in use. GM has the money to do this I am sure.

I may have to get Pu$$y Galore to be their driver however, just to make it a little more exciting to watch.
That video and the Z/28 vs ZL1 is apples to oranges. The Z/28 and ZL1 don't weigh the same, have the same drive train, use the same suspension or even have the same size wheels and tires.

The ZL1 is a benchmark. It's a reference point for the Z/28 comparison. The only reason anyone might see ZL1 owners as jealous is because they are whining it isn't a fair comparison. It isn't supposed to be.
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:56 PM   #241
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The ZL1 is a benchmark. It's a reference point for the Z/28 comparison. The only reason anyone might see ZL1 owners as jealous is because they are whining it isn't a fair comparison. It isn't supposed to be.
Honestly I don't think the statement was even made to compare the 2. It seems like it was more of a slap in Fords face than anything....



"The 1LE already proved faster than the Boss 302, which is no longer sold anyways. So were you competing with anybody with the Z/28, or did you just want to show off?

Let me put it this way. The Z/28, in our initial testing at the Milford Road Course (MRC) is three seconds faster than the ZL1. The ZL1 beat the GT500 there by three seconds. You can do the math from there…"




In other words it wasn't really built to compete with anything specific. It was just built to the max because they wanted to make a statement. JMO
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:57 PM   #242
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Yeah but would you ZL1 guys want 50 treadwear rated tires? That will add quite a bit of cost to the monthly payment to cover for those expensive tires. We should be glad GM actually made the car...granted its not going to be affordable to many.
But there is no way the Z28 is going to outrun the Z06...same engine except the Vette has 600 less pounds to carry. And that little aero kit is not going to make that much of a difference to put the Z28 ahead of the Z06
Well that's just the thing; we don't know what the power is going to be and since they aren't saying it's the same as the Z06, that indicates it's going to be more... we just don't know how much more yet.

They're not saying how much more than 100 lbs they are under the SS so all we can do is guess at this point. The weight difference between the Z/28 and the Z06 might be closer to 500 lbs, which is significant for sure but the Z06 only has 9.5" wide wheels in the front and 10" wide in the rear while the Z/28 has 11" wide all the way around. That's going to make a difference in the corners.

The springs and damping system the Z/28 has must be better than the magnetic suspension otherwise Stielow would be using it; he was in on the development of the ZL1 after-all.

The aerodynamics plays a big part in corner grip; the faster you go the more downforce so coupled with 11" wide sticky tires this thing is going to corner like it's glued to the road. The Z06 will be faster in the straights if they're long enough, otherwise it's a fair guess that the Z/28 is going to be faster in the corners and will very likely beat the Z06 on all road courses except those that are mostly long straights.

You can see in the videos from the Nurburgring that Stielow has a ZL1 and (probably) a Z06; maybe even a ZR1 out there running in a threesome with the Z/28 at the Ring. He's aiming high and clearly wants to beat those two cars. With his reputation..? I bet he succeeds.
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Old 05-21-2013, 12:00 AM   #243
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Laser focusing on cutting as much stuff as possible without sacrificing safety was a huge key to make the Z/28 100 pounds lighter than the SS and 300 pounds lighter than the ZL1. That means the Z28 will weight slightly more than a 2LS V6 Camaro, and awfully close to the Mustang GT. Forged wheels round out the weight-loss program, giving this Camaro the best power to weight ratio out of any version of Camaro.

ZL1 Coupe
Weight - 4,120 lbs
Power - 580 HP
P/W - 7.103 lbs/HP

Z/28
Weight - Estimated 3,760 2LT coupe M6 weighs 3,740 lbs
If P/W = ZL1
Power = 529.354 HP
If P/W > ZL1
Power = 530 HP+

Is a 6% power bump reasonable?
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Old 05-21-2013, 12:27 AM   #244
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The car's not done yet; it's a non-issue. (And my compliment was to Jim).

The beating dead horse icon coming from you just looks like a lynching of ideas that you alone can not handle.

There is still an Issue, just not for you.

I can read where your compliment went. But thanks for unnecessarily pointing that out. You are a bit out numbered, just in this thread, over who has an interest in seeing car vs car with same tires.

Sure, the car is not completet yet, but as it was tested, it could have been apples to apples, car to car, same tires. This should not have been a comparison of how great the Trofeos are vs the Goodyears. it should have been a comparison of how much better the Z28 camaro mods were vs the zl1 mods. Many have already chimed in with agreement. You do not have to, you are entitled to your opinion, just as we are. Why can't you accept that.
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Old 05-21-2013, 12:35 AM   #245
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The beating dead horse icon coming from you just looks like a lynching of ideas that you alone can not handle.

There is still an Issue, just not for you.

I can read where your compliment went. But thanks for unnecessarily pointing that out. You are a bit out numbered, just in this thread, over who has an interest in seeing car vs car with same tires.

Sure, the car is not completet yet, but as it was tested, it could have been apples to apples, car to car, same tires. This should not have been a comparison of how great the Trofeos are vs the Goodyears. it should have been a comparison of how much better the Z28 camaro mods were vs the zl1 mods. Many have already chimed in with agreement. You do not have to, you are entitled to your opinion, just as we are. Why can't you accept that.

Your comparison doesn't work because one of the Z/28 mods IS the better tires.

I know you are sitting here like this...



but if you give it time, it might sink in.
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Old 05-21-2013, 12:42 AM   #246
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Yeah but would you ZL1 guys want 50 treadwear rated tires? That will add quite a bit of cost to the monthly payment to cover for those expensive tires. We should be glad GM actually made the car...granted its not going to be affordable to many.
But there is no way the Z28 is going to outrun the Z06...same engine except the Vette has 600 less pounds to carry. And that little aero kit is not going to make that much of a difference to put the Z28 ahead of the Z06
True, I would not want Trofeos as my daily tire. There are better tires available than the slippery goodyears we got. I do not want the Zl1 to come with track tires, I only want it acknoledged that Trofeo tires make a difference - be it 1 second or 5. But some peoples brains are .
I thnk all are glad GM is making this car, including me. I also think it will be an awesome race circuit car - the perfect camaro for race teams or privateers. I agree too, that the new Z28 will, without any doubt or reservation, be annihilated by a Z06 - but they are not even in the same class, so no biggie.
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Old 05-21-2013, 12:43 AM   #247
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That video and the Z/28 vs ZL1 is apples to oranges. The Z/28 and ZL1 don't weigh the same, have the same drive train, use the same suspension or even have the same size wheels and tires.

The ZL1 is a benchmark. It's a reference point for the Z/28 comparison. The only reason anyone might see ZL1 owners as jealous is because they are whining it isn't a fair comparison. It isn't supposed to be.
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Old 05-21-2013, 12:47 AM   #248
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But thanks for unnecessarily pointing that out. You are a bit out numbered, just in this thread, over who has an interest in seeing car vs car with same tires.

I'm not going to count but I'm pretty sure your wrong.....

Sure, the car is not completet yet, but as it was tested, it could have been apples to apples, car to car, same tires.
How is MODDING the ZL1 make it a apples to apples comparison??????

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Old 05-21-2013, 12:50 AM   #249
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I only want it acknoledged that Trofeo tires make a difference


Every "pro" Z/28 person in here knows that tires make a difference and has said so....

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Old 05-21-2013, 12:58 AM   #250
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Hey Guys...long time lurker, first time poster (no, no pics yet :p )

I've been following this thread with some amusement on both sides of the argument. Here's my take (in multiple parts):

1) It would be awesome to see the 2 cars run head-to-head on as-similar-as-possible tires to isolate the improvements. For academic purposes only, since stock-vs-stock they come with the tires they come with.

2) Given the anecdotal evidence presented here and a few other places..even with the same tires I would expect the Z/28 to beat the ZL1 in nearly all "track" scenarios. Notice I said "track"..as in a prepared racetrack where the racing suspension of the Z/28 can be maximized and the magnetic magic of the ZL1 would have a minimal impact compared to a "road course" like the 'Ring where the surface is varied and downright brutally bumpy in some places.

3) I think everyone in this thread is giving WAY too much credence to the "3 seconds faster thing". Did anyone consider (and if I missed it somewhere in the thread, my humble apologies) that the 3-seconds is just GM sandbagging the advantage the Z/28 showed so as to not make the ZL1 look "too" bad and thus hurt sales. Basically...trying to avoid the "Osborne Effect". I mean think about it...if one does rough extrapolation of the times and distances versus some other tracks with known lap times of all the interested parties...if we take the "tires are the only difference" tact then one could argue that the 1LE is just a tire change away from matching the ZL1 on many if not most of those tracks. $20k buys a lot of tires :p Are we going there? 'Cause that's where some of this logic train is headed if allowed to run its course.

Here's my best wild @$$ guess: Z/28 is actually 5 seconds faster at Milford. Will be 6 seconds faster after final tuning is complete and the car is release to production. About 1.5s to 2s is attributable to the tires. And the "newly revised lap times" won't be released until pricing and limited availability of the car is announced so as to not hurt ZL1 sales in the mean time. When announced, it will wind up being at least $70,000 with a very limited run which will push out-the-door prices over $100k to pure collectors and enthusiasts...thus ensuring that it won't cannibalize ZL1 sales.

Anywho...nice to meet you all and you may now continue your regularly scheduled equine gibbing fest :p
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