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Old 05-18-2013, 10:12 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by 2cnd chance View Post
It's really OK you don't get it.

This is what was condescending. Don't throw a grenade in a room and run out... then when someone reacts you claim they are acting up?

We purists want to see how much of the 3 seconds (vs ZL1) is attributable to only the Tires and Brakes. Or just the Tires. Logical question. No need to deflect on what the question is. Do you know the answer? If not, you just don't get it and that's ok too!
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:13 PM   #128
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I agree with the creature comfort thing, take it all off, strip that car down, it should be purposeful and mean with no regard for human comfort. But when you are resorting to thinning the glass, I am sure you have run out of things to cut out. Speaking of which, since GM did not get a lap time, at the ring, to boast about yet, I am sure a press release will come soon with a list of addition item they have decided to lighten or remove.
I don't claim to be track expert by any means, but I do feel the "3 seconds faster" thing was a little vague. Perhaps not misleading, but does leave a lot to the imagination....

In the long run, I don't think they will finalize a Z/28 that "under-performs" the Zl-1, no matter what it takes to accomplish that. In fact, I think they've got their sites set on a lot bigger fish in the track world...
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:13 PM   #129
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And what would happen when a ZR1 guy wants the same tires put on his car as standard issue? This whole debate with the tires is just
Gawd, the point flew past you. Same tires or same class of tires makes a fair comparison of the engineers accomplishments improving a car chassis. If you want to compare two camaros modifications, compare them with same rubber. Both f1 supercar g2 or both trofeos.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:18 PM   #130
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Obviously this is just my opinion but I don't think the people that are going to buy this car care about creature comforts. I guess I just don't see the point of buying this car then adding a bunch of weight.
I don't think too many will either. But, for an investigation into a true "lap test" comp it would be good to see both using same tire combo at a minimum and maybe add brakes to ZL1 (though that kinda erodes the validity of a lap test comp. A simple tire change would be more car vs car.

Inquiring (& buying minds) want to know!
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:20 PM   #131
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We want to see that because GM claimed to have engineered this drastically better track car than a zl1, but compared the two while putting street tires on one and road race (slick compound) on the other. If GM wants to market their new product by comparing it to the older one, run the both in running shoes, instead of having one wear slippers (pun intended)
The new wheels and tires are part of the engineering.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:25 PM   #132
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What auto magazines do you see putting the same tires on every vehicle to compare them? They don't! They test them as they are equipped from the factory, even in multicar comparison tests. You certainly sound like a ZL1 owner that looks for every reason to denigrate the Z/28. If you don't like the idea that the Z/28 may be a better track car than the ZL1, you do have the option of not participating on the Z/28 threads. And I promise I won't come over to the ZL1 forum section to dog on the ZL1. Your constant negativity on nearly every Z/28 thread is getting extremely boring.
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Any sensible performance minded person that see this 3 second claim made will recognize the significance of the tire issue. As far as me being against the z28 being a better track car, I never said or implied that. I am positive if I were to race regularly in a class that was 4 seat FR, I would run the Z28. If I wanted to race in a higher level, it would be Z06. Not zl1 or zr1.
My issue was with the decision by gm to try to market the z28 against the zl1 with the 3 second claim. Its is the same as if the 1LE had be lapped with trofeos and then gm claimed it was the better designed track car, people would think twice about that and say "impossible.". While I think the z28 is the better track car, I still wanna see them lap the zl1 with trofeos and post those results, bet they are too scared to do such a simple, inexpensive test. Well.......gm engineers.....waiting????
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:29 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by htron50 View Post
This is what was condescending. Don't throw a grenade in a room and run out... then when someone reacts you claim they are acting up?

We purists want to see how much of the 3 seconds (vs ZL1) is attributable to only the Tires and Brakes. Or just the Tires. Logical question. No need to deflect on what the question is. Do you know the answer? If not, you just don't get it and that's ok too!

Grenade? Not understanding your use of the word purist?

The thing is I don't care if the ZL1 outperforms the Z/28 it's not what I'm looking for. As a matter in fact I never expected the Z/28 to outperform the ZL1. Just like I wont ever take it to the drags. Not my thing. I want a drivers car not a S'Charged GT or a 1/4 miler.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:31 PM   #134
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The new wheels and tires are part of the engineering.
Putting slicks on a car is a marketing decision. If other manufacturers started putting slick compound tired on production cars and making claims of being better than the competitors performance number, you would have a weird cold war that results in all sports car having tires that last two months after purchase...but stick really well.

Gm design or even aid in engineering these tires. They signed a contract to supply that tire with that car.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:32 PM   #135
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Gawd, the point flew past you. Same tires or same class of tires makes a fair comparison of the engineers accomplishments improving a car chassis. If you want to compare two camaros modifications, compare them with same rubber. Both f1 supercar g2 or both trofeos.
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I don't think too many will either. But, for an investigation into a true "lap test" comp it would be good to see both using same tire combo at a minimum and maybe add brakes to ZL1 (though that kinda erodes the validity of a lap test comp. A simple tire change would be more car vs car.

Inquiring (& buying minds) want to know!
The thing is we (Z/28 guys) don't care to compare, only you guys are concerned about it.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:41 PM   #136
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The thing is we (Z/28 guys) don't care to compare, only you guys are concerned about it.
Tires are very important but I think a lot of people are only focusing on what they want to.

This to me is much more important than just tires....

“We used the very best components in the industry to deliver uncompromised performance, lap after lap,” said Mark Stielow, Camaro Z/28 engineering manager. “We made nearly 200 changes to improve the track performance, which cumulatively make the Z/28 capable of 1.05 g in cornering. For perspective, with all other things, equal increasing maximum grip from 1 to 1.05 g can cut up to four seconds per lap.”

The Camaro Z/28 is the one of the first production cars fitted with race-proven, spool-valve dampers. Compared to a conventional damper that offers only two-way tuning for bump and rebound, a spool-valve damper allows four-way adjustment to precisely tune both bump and rebound settings for high-speed and low-speed wheel motions. The wider tuning range allowed engineers to dramatically increase the damper stiffness on the Camaro Z/28 without a significant change in ride quality. Additional chassis changes include stiffer string rates and suspension bushings for improved cornering response.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:42 PM   #137
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I don't think too many will either. But, for an investigation into a true "lap test" comp it would be good to see both using same tire combo at a minimum and maybe add brakes to ZL1 (though that kinda erodes the validity of a lap test comp. A simple tire change would be more car vs car.

Inquiring (& buying minds) want to know!
Yep, just tires. GMs engineering input most likely went into brakes and wheels and those are functional, permanent parts of the car. Tires, the wear items, is all the ZL1 needs to overturn the stab of manipulative marketing. The car will sell just fine, even at a sky high price based on the merits of its engineering. Poking at its bigger brother was not necessary to justify the price. Gm apparently thought it was. They are worried that people will not pay more for for a car with "less". They took for granted that we appreciate how expensive the engine suspension and brakes are, and that many are Willng to fork out that cash in a heartbeat.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:42 PM   #138
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The thing is we (Z/28 guys) don't care to compare, only you guys are concerned about it.
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:44 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by ShnOmac View Post
Tires are very important but I think a lot of people are only focusing on what they want to.

This to me is much more important than just tires....

“We used the very best components in the industry to deliver uncompromised performance, lap after lap,” said Mark Stielow, Camaro Z/28 engineering manager. “We made nearly 200 changes to improve the track performance, which cumulatively make the Z/28 capable of 1.05 g in cornering. For perspective, with all other things, equal increasing maximum grip from 1 to 1.05 g can cut up to four seconds per lap.”

The Camaro Z/28 is the one of the first production cars fitted with race-proven, spool-valve dampers. Compared to a conventional damper that offers only two-way tuning for bump and rebound, a spool-valve damper allows four-way adjustment to precisely tune both bump and rebound settings for high-speed and low-speed wheel motions. The wider tuning range allowed engineers to dramatically increase the damper stiffness on the Camaro Z/28 without a significant change in ride quality. Additional chassis changes include stiffer string rates and suspension bushings for improved cornering response.
You are in the wrong thread then, this one is about the comparison between the zl1 and the z28 on a track...remember
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Old 05-18-2013, 10:45 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by ShnOmac View Post
Tires are very important but I think a lot of people are only focusing on what they want to.

This to me is much more important than just tires....

“We used the very best components in the industry to deliver uncompromised performance, lap after lap,” said Mark Stielow, Camaro Z/28 engineering manager. “We made nearly 200 changes to improve the track performance, which cumulatively make the Z/28 capable of 1.05 g in cornering. For perspective, with all other things, equal increasing maximum grip from 1 to 1.05 g can cut up to four seconds per lap.”

The Camaro Z/28 is the one of the first production cars fitted with race-proven, spool-valve dampers. Compared to a conventional damper that offers only two-way tuning for bump and rebound, a spool-valve damper allows four-way adjustment to precisely tune both bump and rebound settings for high-speed and low-speed wheel motions. The wider tuning range allowed engineers to dramatically increase the damper stiffness on the Camaro Z/28 without a significant change in ride quality. Additional chassis changes include stiffer string rates and suspension bushings for improved cornering response.
I agree with the car as a whole being important to its performance. I'm NOT concerned with it being able to better or not better the ZL1. I want it for what it is and how it feels. However I do want it to be highly capable.
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