Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
Solo Performance
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > General Camaro Forums > Camaro Z/28 Forum - Z/28 Specific Topics


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 05-19-2013, 12:50 AM   #171
NightmareZL1
Can't stop ***ifying
 
NightmareZL1's Avatar
 
Drives: Ashen 2013 Gray ZL1
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by GRAHL View Post
Okay we'll that's an interesting answer, but its an answer I guess mag ride will overcome 300 lbs, higher COG, 200 (apparently) track tunings, spool valve dampers and GM engineers admission that the z28 is the superior track car. Okay man, I'll respectfully disagree and we'll see!
Not an admission, a proposal, to aid sales for a car that although a spectacular engineering feat, might not sell well. They need the z28 to sell like past z28's. Not like special one off cars. They need numbers that excite the masses,like 3 seconds over a mighty ZL1.
__________________
Rotofab, grinding rear diff sound forever, dealer replaced supercharger - now i have a rattle when starting from a stop, ordered 2.35 lingenfelter pulley, hp tuner, belt, 100mm idler pulley, tr7IX spark plugs, wideband kit, long tubes with no cats...hoping for 650hp. dyno with rotofab = 518hp
NightmareZL1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2013, 12:54 AM   #172
Bad@ssCamaro
Rogers' Rocks :-)
 
Bad@ssCamaro's Avatar
 
Drives: 2015 1SS/1LE
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Western MA
Posts: 5,642
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
Happy to see this post, you see the argument being made and have answered it with your opinion. Thank you. I would like to see this exact head to head. I actually feel the z28 could do it, just feel the zl1 deserved a fair shot in this comparo and the 3 second wallop would be narrowed by the same shoes.
Ah, looks like grasshopper(myself) is learning well.
__________________
2015 CRT 1SS/1LE RS/Recaro's/NPP/Nav/Rear vision pkg./BA speaker upgrade.

Bad@ssCamaro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2013, 12:57 AM   #173
NightmareZL1
Can't stop ***ifying
 
NightmareZL1's Avatar
 
Drives: Ashen 2013 Gray ZL1
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bhobbs View Post
Are you really that dense or just trolling?

The ZL1 is a benchmark, something to compare the Z/28 to. Changing the tires on the ZL1 defeats the purpose.
Trolling? K. Weird. Zl1 is the car, not the tires. Z28 is a.car that needed sticky tires to perform as designed. The zl1 needs these as well but they gave it a tire that was a compromise between race and longevity. Both cars will be rubber scrubbing monsters. Both cars will always need sticky tires to show the CAR'S max potential. I only pointed out that two car that obviously need traction were compared, only one received more sticky stuff where it was needed. So, gm, trofeo up the zl1, let's see an official.time. anyone can put these tires on and race it, only GM's time is valid for evaluation.
__________________
Rotofab, grinding rear diff sound forever, dealer replaced supercharger - now i have a rattle when starting from a stop, ordered 2.35 lingenfelter pulley, hp tuner, belt, 100mm idler pulley, tr7IX spark plugs, wideband kit, long tubes with no cats...hoping for 650hp. dyno with rotofab = 518hp
NightmareZL1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2013, 12:59 AM   #174
GRAHL
workaholic
 
GRAHL's Avatar
 
Drives: 69 SS Lemans Blue
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Vegas Baby!
Posts: 214
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
Not an admission, a proposal, to aid sales for a car that although a spectacular engineering feat, might not sell well. They need the z28 to sell like past z28's. Not like special one off cars. They need numbers that excite the masses,like 3 seconds over a mighty ZL1.
No sir, in fact We all heard the GM exec say its not for everyone and we both know that sales aren't going to be like past z28's. the enthusiasts at GM put some great work into this car to build a great track car true to its heritage and the results are speaking for themselves. You believe this camaro team is somehow trying to cover for some failure, or trying to pull the wool over people's eyes. That's kind of sad actually, but maybe that's just the type of person you are. I have friends that think everything is a conspiracy. In the end I can't help but believe it stems from a bit of envy over the hype and excitement for this car, seeing how you just bought a zl1, but I could be totally wrong on that one I don't know you that we'll. it's just that is EXACTLY what is coming across on your posts.
__________________
GRAHL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2013, 01:03 AM   #175
Doc
Dances With Mustangs
 
Doc's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 1SS/RS MT
Join Date: May 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 3,606
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShnOmac View Post
I will admit that was a mistake on my part. I read "just tires" and quit reading.... All of your post's go the same direction so I just assumed. My bad.

I clearly think you are underestimating this car and all that has went into it. ITS NOT JUST TIRES. I could be wrong and you could be right. Time will tell....
Oh no, you are right, very right. You could put Trofeos on the ZL1 and it's not going to compete with the Z/28. If anybody thinks GM is "pulling a fast one" (no pun intended hehe) here with marketing gimmicks, they just have to read up on Mark Stielow and what kinds of projects he does and the results he gets.

There's a LOT more going on than just tires. They're creating a sophisticated chassis/suspension setup that Stielow is personally tweaking which means MANY things, not just slapping sticky tires on an otherwise stock chassis/suspension. The fact that GM allowed him to create custom 4-way adjustable dampers just for this car; create custom rear glass, custom rear seat, custom wiring harness, etc. is a huge indicator of how much confidence they have in him (fully justified too) and what their goals are here. This car isn't just a standard SS with a track pack; it's a new car, period.

Stielow has the freedom and approval to create custom pieces as he deems necessary; that's an incredible move by GM. They haven't released Ring numbers yet because Stielow isn't done, not because they're "afraid" to. The word "afraid" isn't in Stielow's vocabulary.

On the street the ZL1 is going to be the better car; smoother ride, more comfortable, quieter, better for cruising around town or taking trips. On the track (road course) the Z/28 is going to rule and if that bothers ZL1 owner's... oh well. They're two entirely different cars designed for two entirely different purposes. Tires is actually the least of it; of course they're putting track tires on a track car. Putting Trofeos on a ZL1 would just chew them up in short order while they tried to deal with the extra 300 lbs of weight going around corners. Sure they'd hold better than the Goodyears but at a price; the ZL1's chassis/suspension isn't set up for road course. It can run there and do pretty well, but it's not going to be a Z/28.
__________________

Blue Angel is here!!
1SS/RS LS3 M6 IBM
Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2013, 01:17 AM   #176
NightmareZL1
Can't stop ***ifying
 
NightmareZL1's Avatar
 
Drives: Ashen 2013 Gray ZL1
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by GRAHL View Post
No sir, in fact We all heard the GM exec say its not for everyone and we both know that sales aren't going to be like past z28's. the enthusiasts at GM put some great work into this car to build a great track car true to its heritage and the results are speaking for themselves. You believe this camaro team is somehow trying to cover for some failure, or trying to pull the wool over people's eyes. That's kind of sad actually, but maybe that's just the type of person you are. I have friends that think everything is a conspiracy. In the end I can't help but believe it stems from a bit of envy over the hype and excitement for this car, seeing how you just bought a zl1, but I could be totally wrong on that one I don't know you that we'll. it's just that is EXACTLY what is coming across on your posts.
I can see why some feel.my post come off that way. I understand why. I just choose to stick to my guns on the 3 second issue and the tires. While we don't have to agree, I am entitled to speculate as well as anyone. I don't and haven't said the z28 won't be a superb track car, I only asked that we see both cars with race tires on the same track. Small request cheap tire change, 1 day of driving. No biggie. We can all see it one way or another, but we cannot expect that either side will just change its opinion. And I don't expect you guys too, I am just hearing opi ions and giving mine. On the the topic. Off topic comments, no thanks peeps
__________________
Rotofab, grinding rear diff sound forever, dealer replaced supercharger - now i have a rattle when starting from a stop, ordered 2.35 lingenfelter pulley, hp tuner, belt, 100mm idler pulley, tr7IX spark plugs, wideband kit, long tubes with no cats...hoping for 650hp. dyno with rotofab = 518hp
NightmareZL1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2013, 01:34 AM   #177
doc7000
 
Drives: 2004 Pontiac Grand Prix
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Lomita,CA
Posts: 466
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
I can see why some feel.my post come off that way. I understand why. I just choose to stick to my guns on the 3 second issue and the tires. While we don't have to agree, I am entitled to speculate as well as anyone. I don't and haven't said the z28 won't be a superb track car, I only asked that we see both cars with race tires on the same track. Small request cheap tire change, 1 day of driving. No biggie. We can all see it one way or another, but we cannot expect that either side will just change its opinion. And I don't expect you guys too, I am just hearing opi ions and giving mine. On the the topic. Off topic comments, no thanks peeps
Here is the flaw with the notion of just changing the tires on the cars....

Cars are tuned with the tires that they are intended to use (factory stock tires). The ZL1 Camaro suspension is tuned for the tires that it comes with, so just putting on it the Z/28 tires will not allow it to maximize the performance advantage. Same thing applies to the Z/28 Camaro, if you put lesser tires on it then you seriously risk throwing off the balance of the car.

So while yes having the Z/28 tires is going to give someone an advantage, however I think we all can look at both vehicles and understand that not all of the advantages come from the tires. The ZL1 Camaro is 4,100 pounds while the Z/28 is going to be around 3,780 pounds (my guess based on GMs press release). Certainly having a 320 pound weight advantage is going to be good for some performance, also according to GMs press release the Z/28 does have a better power to weight ratio then the ZL1 Camaro (at 3,780 pounds that means 540+BHP). Also the aerodynamic edge and the carbon ceramic disc brakes will be another area where the Z/28 has an advantage over the ZL1 Camaro.

So to just assume that if you swapped tires that the ZL1 will be even or faster would require one to ignore everything else about the two cars.
doc7000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2013, 01:38 AM   #178
Doc
Dances With Mustangs
 
Doc's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 1SS/RS MT
Join Date: May 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 3,606
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
I can see why some feel.my post come off that way. I understand why. I just choose to stick to my guns on the 3 second issue and the tires. While we don't have to agree, I am entitled to speculate as well as anyone. I don't and haven't said the z28 won't be a superb track car, I only asked that we see both cars with race tires on the same track. Small request cheap tire change, 1 day of driving. No biggie. We can all see it one way or another, but we cannot expect that either side will just change its opinion. And I don't expect you guys too, I am just hearing opi ions and giving mine. On the the topic. Off topic comments, no thanks peeps
Both cars with the same tires on the same track...the Z/28 is going to be faster for many reasons. 1. it has 11" wide tires all the way around; more rubber on the road. 2. it's 300 lbs lighter (maybe more, we don't know yet). 3. it's weight balance will be more favorable allowing it greater speeds into, through and out of corners. 4. the power difference will be negligible; the LS7 engine has a much better torque range giving it the advantage on a road course. 5. brakes; the Z/28's brakes will enable it to survive serious braking lap after lap while the ZL1 will have heat issues. 6. aerodynamically the Z/28 is being optimized in many ways specifically for road course performance. Those are just a few we know of; when Stielow says they've made over 200 changes, there's some serious tweaking going on that goes way beyond sticky tires. It says something that the car is capable of handling 11" wide sticky tires like that without fuel starvation, oil starvation or suspension component failures...that's a LOT of side-force grip.

The ZL1 is a great street car that can be driven on the track and do well; there's nothing wrong with that or the fact that it will be beaten ON THE TRACK by a designed-for-the-track car.
__________________

Blue Angel is here!!
1SS/RS LS3 M6 IBM
Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2013, 12:41 PM   #179
2cnd chance
It Will Be Mine
 
2cnd chance's Avatar
 
Drives: 2016 Z06?
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: The Road
Posts: 6,598
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc View Post
Both cars with the same tires on the same track...the Z/28 is going to be faster for many reasons. 1. it has 11" wide tires all the way around; more rubber on the road. 2. it's 300 lbs lighter (maybe more, we don't know yet). 3. it's weight balance will be more favorable allowing it greater speeds into, through and out of corners. 4. the power difference will be negligible; the LS7 engine has a much better torque range giving it the advantage on a road course. 5. brakes; the Z/28's brakes will enable it to survive serious braking lap after lap while the ZL1 will have heat issues. 6. aerodynamically the Z/28 is being optimized in many ways specifically for road course performance. Those are just a few we know of; when Stielow says they've made over 200 changes, there's some serious tweaking going on that goes way beyond sticky tires. It says something that the car is capable of handling 11" wide sticky tires like that without fuel starvation, oil starvation or suspension component failures...that's a LOT of side-force grip.

The ZL1 is a great street car that can be driven on the track and do well; there's nothing wrong with that or the fact that it will be beaten ON THE TRACK by a designed-for-the-track car.
And don't forget a lower COG and less unsprung weight.
__________________
2cnd chance is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2013, 01:59 PM   #180
swizz
 
Drives: Camaro 1SS/RS Black
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Queens, NY
Posts: 140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosse'sBoss View Post
I think that the Z28 will be faster than any stock Corvette, except of the ZR1 or Z06 (Carbon edition)
Might be able to run with Z06. Think its a drivers race at that point.
swizz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2013, 03:04 PM   #181
Bhobbs


 
Bhobbs's Avatar
 
Drives: 2015 SS 1LE Red Hot, 1970 Chevelle
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Chino, CA
Posts: 4,441
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
Trolling? K. Weird. Zl1 is the car, not the tires. Z28 is a.car that needed sticky tires to perform as designed. The zl1 needs these as well but they gave it a tire that was a compromise between race and longevity. Both cars will be rubber scrubbing monsters. Both cars will always need sticky tires to show the CAR'S max potential. I only pointed out that two car that obviously need traction were compared, only one received more sticky stuff where it was needed. So, gm, trofeo up the zl1, let's see an official.time. anyone can put these tires on and race it, only GM's time is valid for evaluation.
You're still missing the point but its ok.
Bhobbs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2013, 03:15 PM   #182
cvp33
America FVCK Yeah!
 
cvp33's Avatar
 
Drives: 2012 CTS-V coupe
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Oak Ridge, NC
Posts: 1,045
Tuned for GY F2 tires? Really? Maybe they should have used the record setting Michelin's from the ZR1 runs at the NUrburgring.


Corvette credits much of the car’s added performance to its new Michelin Pilot Sport Cup Zero Pressure tires, which provided an 8 percent gain in lateral acceleration, as well as improved braking. The new tires are available on the flagship 638-hp ZR1 as well as on the 505-hp Z06.
cvp33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2013, 05:23 PM   #183
*007
 
Drives: Getaway Special
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Globe Trotter - CIU
Posts: 294
This thread about the 3 second "GAP" is getting abstract. I think what missing in most of it is GPA. Just trade the tires on each of the cars in question and see what becomes of it at Milford. Until then.............. study hard and keep giving us your PHD thesis.
__________________
Sip:
*007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2013, 05:45 PM   #184
x1sniper3x
 
x1sniper3x's Avatar
 
Drives: 2013 CRT 2SS/1LE; 2005 Cobalt
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Edison, NJ
Posts: 618
Quote:
Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
Hah. Still Same car. Broaden your horizon past your Chevy and your keyboard. M3, Z06, aventador, Italia, 911 turbo, and viper are different cars, modded Camaro gen 5's are modded camaros, whether modded by gm or by john q public. Same cars, one got race slick compound and one did not. That is fine. Not saying zl1 is better, never said that. Only said that if you want to compare lap times, give them both race compound or street tires. Pretty simple to comprehend, or so I thought. I see that some here see the logic and truth in that , some others cannot. I bet the "some others" just buy the cheapest tire available when you need replacements or you choose what tread pattern looks cool. Tires are just for driving to work on, right?
So if all Camaros are the same and we're gonna compare all Camaros with the same tires, should we throw the LS wheels/tires on the SS, 1LE, ZL1, and Z/28? That's the only way we can have a fair comparison right?

And regarding your earlier post about not seeing times at the 'Ring: it was months after we saw pics of the ZL1 at the 'Ring that we finally got times for it. But I guess GM was embarrassed by those times too, right?
__________________
x1sniper3x is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2013, 07:40 PM   #185
detltu
 
detltu's Avatar
 
Drives: 1991 Z28 1LE; 2015 Zl1
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Madisonville, LA
Posts: 185
Do we know what tires were used on the Zl1 during the 3 second slower benchmark? Maybe they were the latest and greatest. If GM says it's three seconds faster, I don't think it's just a tire advantage. Maybe a little, but if that 3 seconds disappears with the same tires, GM went through a lot of trouble for nothing.

Maybe they will come out and let us know what tires were used, or if the tires were different, they will re run the test with the same tires.
__________________
1989 Camaro RS convertible- Sold
1999 Camaro SS - Stolen 2x
1991 Camaro Z28-
1991 Camaro Z28 1LE-
2015 Camaro ZL1- finally a reality
detltu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2013, 08:27 PM   #186
OldScoolCamaro


 
Drives: Camaro's, always have, always will.
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Home of the brave
Posts: 4,857
Q. Why are we placing this on the homepage front and center after so much time has passed and we already know this?
__________________
In Scott We Trust...all others must show proof.
OldScoolCamaro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2013, 12:27 AM   #187
NightmareZL1
Can't stop ***ifying
 
NightmareZL1's Avatar
 
Drives: Ashen 2013 Gray ZL1
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by *007 View Post
This thread about the 3 second "GAP" is getting abstract. I think what missing in most of it is GPA. Just trade the tires on each of the cars in question and see what becomes of it at Milford. Until then.............. study hard and keep giving us your PHD thesis.
Amen.

And, to those who believe that a car was designed for a certain tire and that giving it a better tire will not make the car faster...Wow.

And about hanging with a Z06, sure, just put three extra people in there and raise it up a couple inches. HAHA, GM is doing you guys a favor in not releasing the Ring times, the sky is the limit for your Z28 imaginations.

Tires make a huge Difference, more than any other modification in that price range! And the Trofeos were just released in 20's, now we just the release of the Z28, so we can put this 3 second farce to death.

And to the comment that the ZL1 will just shred the Trofeo's, sure, it actuall will, while it rails by a z28 at the ring.
__________________
Rotofab, grinding rear diff sound forever, dealer replaced supercharger - now i have a rattle when starting from a stop, ordered 2.35 lingenfelter pulley, hp tuner, belt, 100mm idler pulley, tr7IX spark plugs, wideband kit, long tubes with no cats...hoping for 650hp. dyno with rotofab = 518hp
NightmareZL1 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.