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Old 05-17-2013, 03:30 PM   #52
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The C6R....
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Old 05-17-2013, 03:37 PM   #53
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I don't see any reason why one design decision can be viewed as a 'cheat', while others are 'fair'. GM could have used any tires they wanted for the Z/28 -or the ZL1. They made their choice for what they felt was appropriate for the car. Just as they made similar choices for all the other areas of the car. Are you going to complain that they made the Z/28 300+ lbs lighter too? Because thats going to impact its track performance as well. So to be fair, we should probably add 300 lbs of ballast to the Z/28 and then see how well it does relative to the ZL1. Although ... the ZL1 would then have an 80 hp advantage. Alright then ... how about we limit the boost on the ZL1 to bring it down to 500 or so hp. It would only be fair, right? And then we can give the Z/28 the standard steel rotors from the ZL1. And maybe replace the MR shocks on the ZL1 with the more conventional ones in the Z/28? Mix and match the aero kits from the two of them as well.

I bet if you did all that, the two would end up in a practical dead heat because damn near everything would be the exact same. And nobody wants to see that. The Z/28 is different from the ZL1 ... thats the whole point of offering both of them. If you want a kickass track car, then the Z/28 is for you. If you are more of a Grand Touring kind of person, then look no further than the ZL1.
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Old 05-17-2013, 03:44 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Angrybird 12 View Post
The C6R....
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Originally Posted by ShnOmac View Post
Just for giggles I looked up Laguna seca lap times for the ZR1 and the C6R...

2013 ZR1 = 1.33

C6R qualifying lap = 1.22

WOW



http://www.motortrend.com/features/laguna_lap/
http://www.alms.com/results/qualifying
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Old 05-17-2013, 03:53 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by ShnOmac View Post
Just for giggles I looked up Laguna seca lap times for the ZR1 and the C6R...

2013 ZR1 = 1.33

C6R qualifying lap = 1.22

WOW



http://www.motortrend.com/features/laguna_lap/
http://www.alms.com/results/qualifying
Any C7 times at Milford?
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Old 05-17-2013, 04:02 PM   #56
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Any C7 times at Milford?
Not that I have seen.
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Old 05-17-2013, 04:26 PM   #57
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If they ran the same tires I would very much doubt the Z06 would lose. The Z07 package was an absolute monster and came in 3-4 seconds behind the ZR1 at Nurburgring.

So improving the tires for a 1 lap attempt. That Z/28 better be flying
Exacty. Anyone who has owned a C6 Z06 knows that the camaro, no matter how light, or modified, is just not in its league. Again, I love my camaro, but if I want real, no limitations performance, I'll buy another Z06 or a ZR1. This is a reality that these Z28 dreamers need to accept now, or the real world numbers of this "GM's Best camaro" are going to disappoint.
This is a point of annoyance, they claim that this car has been in the works for years...this engine already existed, the chassis already existed, the rest is bolt ons and tuning. Yet, GM hasn's posted Ring track times. obviously they are having a problem getting a ring time that validates the price and hype. So, they must be going back to do some more major changes $$$
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Old 05-17-2013, 04:34 PM   #58
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I don't see any reason why one design decision can be viewed as a 'cheat', while others are 'fair'. GM could have used any tires they wanted for the Z/28 -or the ZL1. They made their choice for what they felt was appropriate for the car. Just as they made similar choices for all the other areas of the car. Are you going to complain that they made the Z/28 300+ lbs lighter too? Because thats going to impact its track performance as well. So to be fair, we should probably add 300 lbs of ballast to the Z/28 and then see how well it does relative to the ZL1. Although ... the ZL1 would then have an 80 hp advantage. Alright then ... how about we limit the boost on the ZL1 to bring it down to 500 or so hp. It would only be fair, right? And then we can give the Z/28 the standard steel rotors from the ZL1. And maybe replace the MR shocks on the ZL1 with the more conventional ones in the Z/28? Mix and match the aero kits from the two of them as well.

I bet if you did all that, the two would end up in a practical dead heat because damn near everything would be the exact same. And nobody wants to see that. The Z/28 is different from the ZL1 ... thats the whole point of offering both of them. If you want a kickass track car, then the Z/28 is for you. If you are more of a Grand Touring kind of person, then look no further than the ZL1.
No one said cheat. Tires are only tires. My only Issue with the ZL1 performance has been that I have too much power for the tires. It is a wear item that soon gets replaced, so soon all 2012, 2013 ZL1 track cars will be sporting better rubber. Just as many Z28 owners are going to want tires that last longer after that first set scrubs bald. Putting the came tires both cars will show which engine/chassis/suspension combo is superior. I am sure it will show that the Z28 handles a little better than the ZL1, but nothing earth shattering. Just look at the time difference at the Ring when GM used track tires versus street tires(ZR1/Z06) - HUGE difference. Tires do not make the car. GM did not engineer them. apples to apples - put same tires on both cars....
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Old 05-17-2013, 05:13 PM   #59
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Yet, GM hasn's posted Ring track times. obviously they are having a problem getting a ring time that validates the price and hype. So, they must be going back to do some more major changes $$$
That's a pretty big assumption.

Maybe they were just there testing..... They have already stated they are not done developing the Z/28.
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Old 05-17-2013, 05:24 PM   #60
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That's the issue, given the specs and parts are so great and such a big change as advertised, there isn't much more to change unless you start replacing panels in cf, balsa wood, or plastic. Not much more time to squeeze out. Why the long delay after the car hit the track and hit it hard. Something doesn't add up. I want this to be a sick ass car. But even stripped down of weight, there is no way to come near the halo cars. Color me dissapointed, so far.
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Last edited by NightmareZL1; 05-17-2013 at 11:21 PM. Reason: grammar
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Old 05-17-2013, 05:57 PM   #61
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Who cares if the Z/28 is faster than the ZL1 or Z06 on the track. I guess it better be, right? That's it's purpose. Some ZL1 and Corvette owners need thicker skin IMO. If they made a track only Vette of course it would be faster and no way the Z/28 will best the C7 Z when it comes out. If they put different equipment on the Z/28 or ZL1 or of they are modded of course the performance would change. Lots of argument for no reason IMO. Each car has its place, each car beats others in certain areas. Can't go wrong if you ask me.
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Old 05-17-2013, 06:35 PM   #62
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But the difference here is that in GT500 vs ZL1, the Ford had the 80 hp advantage and the 300 lb weight advantage giving it a substantial edge in a straight line. But vs the Z/28, the 80 extra hp has to move 300 lbs more car, reducing the impact of its power advantage (rather than enhancing it).
Sure, the ZL1 will still pull harder, but its not going to be as substantial a difference as it is between the GT500 and the ZL1.
ACtually according to GM the Z/28 Camaro has a better power to weight ratio then the ZL1 Camaro. So on no track should the ZL1 Camaro be able to beat the Z/28, the Z should smoke it everywhere.
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Old 05-17-2013, 06:48 PM   #63
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ACtually according to GM the Z/28 Camaro has a better power to weight ratio then the ZL1 Camaro. So on no track should the ZL1 Camaro be able to beat the Z/28, the Z should smoke it everywhere.
Nope. At speed your car is fighting air, not lbs. Same car, same basic shape, HP matters. And as far as the guy who said the vette had lift, the vette also has much, much less drag than our box shaped (because they are retro) cars. Look across many diff manufacturers, drag determines top speed, a lot more than weight. Any person who has taken a z06 to 190, will tell you how it goes from 100 to 175, with the effort it takes a Camaro to go from 20 to 70. After that the Camaro has a bitch of a time fighting drag. There is a video of a z06 with minor mods just smoking a zl1 with some big HP. The zl1 guys said the z06 must have had more mods, nope, the shape of the car is the trump card. The z28 will have corner advantage and exit speed on the zl1, as far as "smoke it everywhere"....doubt it
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Old 05-17-2013, 06:55 PM   #64
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Its a badazz camaro for sure with impressive track times but not sure if they are going to find buyers for it at the price point i'm reading..
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:40 PM   #65
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Nope. At speed your car is fighting air, not lbs. Same car, same basic shape, HP matters. And as far as the guy who said the vette had lift, the vette also has much, much less drag than our box shaped (because they are retro) cars. Look across many diff manufacturers, drag determines top speed, a lot more than weight. Any person who has taken a z06 to 190, will tell you how it goes from 100 to 175, with the effort it takes a Camaro to go from 20 to 70. After that the Camaro has a bitch of a time fighting drag. There is a video of a z06 with minor mods just smoking a zl1 with some big HP. The zl1 guys said the z06 must have had more mods, nope, the shape of the car is the trump card. The z28 will have corner advantage and exit speed on the zl1, as far as "smoke it everywhere"....doubt it
I'm glad someone realizes that.....
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:58 PM   #66
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That's the issue, giving the specs and parts are so great and such a big change as advertised, there isn't much more to change unless you start replacing panels in cf, balsa wood, or plastic. Not much more time to squeeze out. Why the long delay after the car hit the track and hit it hard. Something doesn't add up. I want this to be a sick ass car. But even stripped down of weight, there is no way to come near the halo cars. Color me dissapointed, so far.
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I'm glad someone realizes that.....
How can you be disappointed??? You and we know little to nothing about the final product!

There's wayyyyyy more to it (racing) than has been described. Wayyyy more.
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Old 05-17-2013, 10:00 PM   #67
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We can all agree that both the Z/28 and the ZL1 are faster around Milford than the Z71 can't we? All different vehicles with different goals.

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Old 05-17-2013, 10:12 PM   #68
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ACtually according to GM the Z/28 Camaro has a better power to weight ratio then the ZL1 Camaro. So on no track should the ZL1 Camaro be able to beat the Z/28, the Z should smoke it everywhere.
Yep. There will have to be plenty of loooong straightaways for the zl1 to try and make up ground.
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