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Old 05-18-2013, 11:06 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
Putting slicks on a car is a marketing decision. If other manufacturers started putting slick compound tired on production cars and making claims of being better than the competitors performance number, you would have a weird cold war that results in all sports car having tires that last two months after purchase...but stick really well.

Gm design or even aid in engineering these tires. They signed a contract to supply that tire with that car.


The same thing can be said about strapping a blower on a 6.2. It's only a marketing decision, right?

GM engineers called for specific tire specs and the tires they are using met those.
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:08 PM   #152
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It is explicitly implied. What else is meant by, " one car is faster than the other," it is a comparison.
The z28 is the faster track car, I think that's obvious. With the same tires the z28 will still be quicker in the corners and getting out of them, and the rest will be up to how long the straights are for the zl1 to make up time.
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:08 PM   #153
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I don't claim to be track expert by any means, but I do feel the "3 seconds faster" thing was a little vague. Perhaps not misleading, but does leave a lot to the imagination....

In the long run, I don't think they will finalize a Z/28 that "under-performs" the Zl-1, no matter what it takes to accomplish that. In fact, I think they've got their sites set on a lot bigger fish in the track world...
Yes yes, agreed. This is why I am assuming (my opinion only) that the ring times were a flop against the current zl1 and GM is gonna squeeze more out of the car. So I bet we shall get some announcements of new cuts and mods to the car soon.
"505 HP 427, surprise we meant 600hp 427."
Or
"Did we suggest 3700 lbs, we meant 3300, with an aluminum frame, magnesium sub frame, and balsa wood floors and carbon hood roof trunk wheels trunk floor. Lithium battery too. Price is now only 110,000, but it beat the zl1 at the ring by 8 seconds"
Haha, still if they went that far with the mods, that would be awesome for Camaro people everywhere. I say hell.yeah.
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:10 PM   #154
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The z28 is the faster track car, I think that's obvious. With the same tires the z28 will still be quicker in the corners and getting out of them, and the rest will be up to how long the straights are for the zl1 to make up time.
That is where I am in large disagreement. Id like to see GM prove this. Either way, someone will soon after the cars release
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:12 PM   #155
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That is where I am in large disagreement. Id like to see GM prove this. Either way, someone will soon after the cars release
Do you think the zl1 would be quicker through the corners? How? What advantage would it have?
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:13 PM   #156
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The thing is we (Z/28 guys) don't care to compare, only you guys are concerned about it.

This thread is titled COMPARING a 3 Second Gap and you say you are posting in here because you don't care to compare? Geeeezzuss..... I guess like Clinton, it all depends on what "it" is. IF you don't care, don't post. hehe.... gotcha.

Oh, you do care? My bad.
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:14 PM   #157
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Then we see what happens on a "test lap".... not an endurance race.
Other than bench racing and silly bragging rights, who is going to care a about a single 'test lap' if it can't be done reliably and consistently? I guess the ZL1 guys that never take their cars to the track can say yeah, my car is just is fast or faster than your Z/28 around a track if I put on trofeos. People that do track their cars regularly understand how brutal it can be on a car and that fighting heat and keeping a car consistent/reliable is much more important than a one lap wonder car.

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Tires are very important but I think a lot of people are only focusing on what they want to.

This to me is much more important than just tires....

“We used the very best components in the industry to deliver uncompromised performance, lap after lap,” said Mark Stielow, Camaro Z/28 engineering manager. “We made nearly 200 changes to improve the track performance, which cumulatively make the Z/28 capable of 1.05 g in cornering. For perspective, with all other things, equal increasing maximum grip from 1 to 1.05 g can cut up to four seconds per lap.”

The Camaro Z/28 is the one of the first production cars fitted with race-proven, spool-valve dampers. Compared to a conventional damper that offers only two-way tuning for bump and rebound, a spool-valve damper allows four-way adjustment to precisely tune both bump and rebound settings for high-speed and low-speed wheel motions. The wider tuning range allowed engineers to dramatically increase the damper stiffness on the Camaro Z/28 without a significant change in ride quality. Additional chassis changes include stiffer string rates and suspension bushings for improved cornering response.
Sums up what I just typed above just as well.
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:17 PM   #158
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That is where I am in large disagreement. Id like to see GM prove this. Either way, someone will soon after the cars release
They did, at the Milford Proving Gound.
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:21 PM   #159
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The same thing can be said about strapping a blower on a 6.2. It's only a marketing decision, right?

GM engineers called for specific tire specs and the tires they are using met those.
Nope. Blower and associatted equipment adds weight and brings in the heat soak problem. Those are negative for tracking a car, one z strips down, the other z bulks up, each has a leg up in one aspect of road racing. Power versus nimbleness. Now give them the same tires and see which mods came out on top and by how much.
It is so adorable to see that the z28 has fans so faithful that they not only ignore the tire advantage, but deny it is an advantage.

Any two cars, owned by any two person, wanting to road race for the best times, will both pick the stickiest tires possible such that the winner shall be found by the merits of the car or of the driver. Given the same driver for both cars, only the merits of the car will be proven superior. I would like to see the merits of the car seen superior....either car.
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:24 PM   #160
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They did, at the Milford Proving Gound.
Clever. I'll put winter snow tires on my car and summer performance tires on yours, we'll go race around a track. I bet you'll feel you won fair and square, right?
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:30 PM   #161
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"According to Mr. Wyndham's interview with John Fitzpatrick (LINK) the mysterious course where the z/28 proved to be 3 seconds faster than the ZL1 is the MRC, or Milford Road Course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham
The 1LE already proved faster than the Boss 302, which is no longer sold anyways. So were you competing with anybody with the Z/28, or did you just want to show off?

Let me put it this way. The Z/28, in our initial testing at the Milford Road Course (MRC) is three seconds faster than the ZL1. The ZL1 beat the GT500 there by three seconds. You can do the math from there…"






I really think it was supposed to be a slap in ford's face.... not the ZL1.
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:30 PM   #162
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Nope. Blower and associatted equipment adds weight and brings in the heat soak problem. Those are negative for tracking a car, one z strips down, the other z bulks up, each has a leg up in one aspect of road racing. Power versus nimbleness. Now give them the same tires and see which mods came out on top and by how much.
It is so adorable to see that the z28 has fans so faithful that they not only ignore the tire advantage, but deny it is an advantage.

Any two cars, owned by any two person, wanting to road race for the best times, will both pick the stickiest tires possible such that the winner shall be found by the merits of the car or of the driver. Given the same driver for both cars, only the merits of the car will be proven superior. I would like to see the merits of the car seen superior....either car.

It's not our fault you can't grasp the concept that the Z/28 was built for maximum track performance with a VIN while the ZL1 was not. So you arguing that the Z/28 has a tire advantage and that isn't fair is not a rational argument.

I'm not ignoring the tire advantage. You are ignoring that they are two completely different cars.
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:33 PM   #163
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Do you think the zl1 would be quicker through the corners? How? What advantage would it have?
Obviously you haven't experienced mag ride. For proof of its effectiveness, look where the zl1 places in ring times among more powerful, more aerodynamic, much (1000lbs) lighter cars, that have race suspension and awesome chassis. The ZL1 does not belong there with that company, physics defying mag ride version 3 proves itself. I have driven some of those cars and they all should be faster than the Camaro, any Camaro. It was just the mag ride that got it there with its ability to constantly and quickly adjust to changing track surfaces at the ring. Only way to make a.brick.faster is to make it stick better I guess.
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:34 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by Bhobbs View Post
It's not our fault you can't grasp the concept that the Z/28 was built for maximum track performance with a VIN while the ZL1 was not. So you arguing that the Z/28 has a tire advantage and that isn't fair is not a rational argument.

I'm not ignoring the tire advantage. You are ignoring that they are two completely different cars.


I have been trying to say the same thing.... but you said it much better.
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:36 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
Nope. Blower and associatted equipment adds weight and brings in the heat soak problem. Those are negative for tracking a car, one z strips down, the other z bulks up, each has a leg up in one aspect of road racing. Power versus nimbleness. Now give them the same tires and see which mods came out on top and by how much.
It is so adorable to see that the z28 has fans so faithful that they not only ignore the tire advantage, but deny it is an advantage.

Any two cars, owned by any two person, wanting to road race for the best times, will both pick the stickiest tires possible such that the winner shall be found by the merits of the car or of the driver. Given the same driver for both cars, only the merits of the car will be proven superior. I would like to see the merits of the car seen superior....either car.
Stock for stock(except for tires, both wearing the same) the Z/28 would win. Even on 1 lap course, tires would not make up 3 seconds.
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:38 PM   #166
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It's not our fault you can't grasp the concept that the Z/28 was built for maximum track performance with a VIN while the ZL1 was not. So you arguing that the Z/28 has a tire advantage and that isn't fair is not a rational argument.

I'm not ignoring the tire advantage. You are ignoring that they are two completely different cars.
Hah. Still Same car. Broaden your horizon past your Chevy and your keyboard. M3, Z06, aventador, Italia, 911 turbo, and viper are different cars, modded Camaro gen 5's are modded camaros, whether modded by gm or by john q public. Same cars, one got race slick compound and one did not. That is fine. Not saying zl1 is better, never said that. Only said that if you want to compare lap times, give them both race compound or street tires. Pretty simple to comprehend, or so I thought. I see that some here see the logic and truth in that , some others cannot. I bet the "some others" just buy the cheapest tire available when you need replacements or you choose what tread pattern looks cool. Tires are just for driving to work on, right?
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:39 PM   #167
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Obviously you haven't experienced mag ride. For proof of its effectiveness, look where the zl1 places in ring times among more powerful, more aerodynamic, much (1000lbs) lighter cars, that have race suspension and awesome chassis. The ZL1 does not belong there with that company, physics defying mag ride version 3 proves itself. I have driven some of those cars and they all should be faster than the Camaro, any Camaro. It was just the mag ride that got it there with its ability to constantly and quickly adjust to changing track surfaces at the ring. Only way to make a.brick.faster is to make it stick better I guess.
Okay we'll that's an interesting answer, but its an answer I guess mag ride will overcome 300 lbs, higher COG, 200 (apparently) track tunings, spool valve dampers and GM engineers admission that the z28 is the superior track car. Okay man, I'll respectfully disagree and we'll see!
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:43 PM   #168
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"According to Mr. Wyndham's interview with John Fitzpatrick (LINK) the mysterious course where the z/28 proved to be 3 seconds faster than the ZL1 is the MRC, or Milford Road Course.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham
The 1LE already proved faster than the Boss 302, which is no longer sold anyways. So were you competing with anybody with the Z/28, or did you just want to show off?

Let me put it this way. The Z/28, in our initial testing at the Milford Road Course (MRC) is three seconds faster than the ZL1. The ZL1 beat the GT500 there by three seconds. You can do the math from there…"






I really think it was supposed to be a slap in ford's face.... not the ZL1.
Nice....Never saw the ZL-1 beating the GT500 comment until now....

I think that should un-ruffle some feathers....lol...
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:43 PM   #169
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Stock for stock(except for tires, both wearing the same) the Z/28 would win. Even on 1 lap course, tires would not make up 3 seconds.
Happy to see this post, you see the argument being made and have answered it with your opinion. Thank you. I would like to see this exact head to head. I actually feel the z28 could do it, just feel the zl1 deserved a fair shot in this comparo and the 3 second wallop would be narrowed by the same shoes.
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:44 PM   #170
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Hah. Still Same car. Broaden your horizon past your Chevy and your keyboard. M3, Z06, aventador, Italia, 911 turbo, and viper are different cars, modded Camaro gen 5's are modded camaros, whether modded by gm or by john q public. Same cars, one got race slick compound and one did not. That is fine. Not saying zl1 is better, never said that. Only said that if you want to compare lap times, give them both race compound or street tires. Pretty simple to comprehend, or so I thought. I see that some here see the logic and truth in that , some others cannot. I bet the "some others" just buy the cheapest tire available when you need replacements or you choose what tread pattern looks cool. Tires are just for driving to work on, right?
Are you really that dense or just trolling?

The ZL1 is a benchmark, something to compare the Z/28 to. Changing the tires on the ZL1 defeats the purpose.
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:50 PM   #171
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Okay we'll that's an interesting answer, but its an answer I guess mag ride will overcome 300 lbs, higher COG, 200 (apparently) track tunings, spool valve dampers and GM engineers admission that the z28 is the superior track car. Okay man, I'll respectfully disagree and we'll see!
Not an admission, a proposal, to aid sales for a car that although a spectacular engineering feat, might not sell well. They need the z28 to sell like past z28's. Not like special one off cars. They need numbers that excite the masses,like 3 seconds over a mighty ZL1.
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:54 PM   #172
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Happy to see this post, you see the argument being made and have answered it with your opinion. Thank you. I would like to see this exact head to head. I actually feel the z28 could do it, just feel the zl1 deserved a fair shot in this comparo and the 3 second wallop would be narrowed by the same shoes.
Ah, looks like grasshopper(myself) is learning well.
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:57 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by Bhobbs View Post
Are you really that dense or just trolling?

The ZL1 is a benchmark, something to compare the Z/28 to. Changing the tires on the ZL1 defeats the purpose.
Trolling? K. Weird. Zl1 is the car, not the tires. Z28 is a.car that needed sticky tires to perform as designed. The zl1 needs these as well but they gave it a tire that was a compromise between race and longevity. Both cars will be rubber scrubbing monsters. Both cars will always need sticky tires to show the CAR'S max potential. I only pointed out that two car that obviously need traction were compared, only one received more sticky stuff where it was needed. So, gm, trofeo up the zl1, let's see an official.time. anyone can put these tires on and race it, only GM's time is valid for evaluation.
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:59 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
Not an admission, a proposal, to aid sales for a car that although a spectacular engineering feat, might not sell well. They need the z28 to sell like past z28's. Not like special one off cars. They need numbers that excite the masses,like 3 seconds over a mighty ZL1.
No sir, in fact We all heard the GM exec say its not for everyone and we both know that sales aren't going to be like past z28's. the enthusiasts at GM put some great work into this car to build a great track car true to its heritage and the results are speaking for themselves. You believe this camaro team is somehow trying to cover for some failure, or trying to pull the wool over people's eyes. That's kind of sad actually, but maybe that's just the type of person you are. I have friends that think everything is a conspiracy. In the end I can't help but believe it stems from a bit of envy over the hype and excitement for this car, seeing how you just bought a zl1, but I could be totally wrong on that one I don't know you that we'll. it's just that is EXACTLY what is coming across on your posts.
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Old 05-19-2013, 12:03 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by ShnOmac View Post
I will admit that was a mistake on my part. I read "just tires" and quit reading.... All of your post's go the same direction so I just assumed. My bad.

I clearly think you are underestimating this car and all that has went into it. ITS NOT JUST TIRES. I could be wrong and you could be right. Time will tell....
Oh no, you are right, very right. You could put Trofeos on the ZL1 and it's not going to compete with the Z/28. If anybody thinks GM is "pulling a fast one" (no pun intended hehe) here with marketing gimmicks, they just have to read up on Mark Stielow and what kinds of projects he does and the results he gets.

There's a LOT more going on than just tires. They're creating a sophisticated chassis/suspension setup that Stielow is personally tweaking which means MANY things, not just slapping sticky tires on an otherwise stock chassis/suspension. The fact that GM allowed him to create custom 4-way adjustable dampers just for this car; create custom rear glass, custom rear seat, custom wiring harness, etc. is a huge indicator of how much confidence they have in him (fully justified too) and what their goals are here. This car isn't just a standard SS with a track pack; it's a new car, period.

Stielow has the freedom and approval to create custom pieces as he deems necessary; that's an incredible move by GM. They haven't released Ring numbers yet because Stielow isn't done, not because they're "afraid" to. The word "afraid" isn't in Stielow's vocabulary.

On the street the ZL1 is going to be the better car; smoother ride, more comfortable, quieter, better for cruising around town or taking trips. On the track (road course) the Z/28 is going to rule and if that bothers ZL1 owner's... oh well. They're two entirely different cars designed for two entirely different purposes. Tires is actually the least of it; of course they're putting track tires on a track car. Putting Trofeos on a ZL1 would just chew them up in short order while they tried to deal with the extra 300 lbs of weight going around corners. Sure they'd hold better than the Goodyears but at a price; the ZL1's chassis/suspension isn't set up for road course. It can run there and do pretty well, but it's not going to be a Z/28.
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