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Old 05-19-2013, 12:17 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by GRAHL View Post
No sir, in fact We all heard the GM exec say its not for everyone and we both know that sales aren't going to be like past z28's. the enthusiasts at GM put some great work into this car to build a great track car true to its heritage and the results are speaking for themselves. You believe this camaro team is somehow trying to cover for some failure, or trying to pull the wool over people's eyes. That's kind of sad actually, but maybe that's just the type of person you are. I have friends that think everything is a conspiracy. In the end I can't help but believe it stems from a bit of envy over the hype and excitement for this car, seeing how you just bought a zl1, but I could be totally wrong on that one I don't know you that we'll. it's just that is EXACTLY what is coming across on your posts.
I can see why some feel.my post come off that way. I understand why. I just choose to stick to my guns on the 3 second issue and the tires. While we don't have to agree, I am entitled to speculate as well as anyone. I don't and haven't said the z28 won't be a superb track car, I only asked that we see both cars with race tires on the same track. Small request cheap tire change, 1 day of driving. No biggie. We can all see it one way or another, but we cannot expect that either side will just change its opinion. And I don't expect you guys too, I am just hearing opi ions and giving mine. On the the topic. Off topic comments, no thanks peeps
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Old 05-19-2013, 12:34 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
I can see why some feel.my post come off that way. I understand why. I just choose to stick to my guns on the 3 second issue and the tires. While we don't have to agree, I am entitled to speculate as well as anyone. I don't and haven't said the z28 won't be a superb track car, I only asked that we see both cars with race tires on the same track. Small request cheap tire change, 1 day of driving. No biggie. We can all see it one way or another, but we cannot expect that either side will just change its opinion. And I don't expect you guys too, I am just hearing opi ions and giving mine. On the the topic. Off topic comments, no thanks peeps
Here is the flaw with the notion of just changing the tires on the cars....

Cars are tuned with the tires that they are intended to use (factory stock tires). The ZL1 Camaro suspension is tuned for the tires that it comes with, so just putting on it the Z/28 tires will not allow it to maximize the performance advantage. Same thing applies to the Z/28 Camaro, if you put lesser tires on it then you seriously risk throwing off the balance of the car.

So while yes having the Z/28 tires is going to give someone an advantage, however I think we all can look at both vehicles and understand that not all of the advantages come from the tires. The ZL1 Camaro is 4,100 pounds while the Z/28 is going to be around 3,780 pounds (my guess based on GMs press release). Certainly having a 320 pound weight advantage is going to be good for some performance, also according to GMs press release the Z/28 does have a better power to weight ratio then the ZL1 Camaro (at 3,780 pounds that means 540+BHP). Also the aerodynamic edge and the carbon ceramic disc brakes will be another area where the Z/28 has an advantage over the ZL1 Camaro.

So to just assume that if you swapped tires that the ZL1 will be even or faster would require one to ignore everything else about the two cars.
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Old 05-19-2013, 12:38 AM   #178
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Originally Posted by NightmareZL1 View Post
I can see why some feel.my post come off that way. I understand why. I just choose to stick to my guns on the 3 second issue and the tires. While we don't have to agree, I am entitled to speculate as well as anyone. I don't and haven't said the z28 won't be a superb track car, I only asked that we see both cars with race tires on the same track. Small request cheap tire change, 1 day of driving. No biggie. We can all see it one way or another, but we cannot expect that either side will just change its opinion. And I don't expect you guys too, I am just hearing opi ions and giving mine. On the the topic. Off topic comments, no thanks peeps
Both cars with the same tires on the same track...the Z/28 is going to be faster for many reasons. 1. it has 11" wide tires all the way around; more rubber on the road. 2. it's 300 lbs lighter (maybe more, we don't know yet). 3. it's weight balance will be more favorable allowing it greater speeds into, through and out of corners. 4. the power difference will be negligible; the LS7 engine has a much better torque range giving it the advantage on a road course. 5. brakes; the Z/28's brakes will enable it to survive serious braking lap after lap while the ZL1 will have heat issues. 6. aerodynamically the Z/28 is being optimized in many ways specifically for road course performance. Those are just a few we know of; when Stielow says they've made over 200 changes, there's some serious tweaking going on that goes way beyond sticky tires. It says something that the car is capable of handling 11" wide sticky tires like that without fuel starvation, oil starvation or suspension component failures...that's a LOT of side-force grip.

The ZL1 is a great street car that can be driven on the track and do well; there's nothing wrong with that or the fact that it will be beaten ON THE TRACK by a designed-for-the-track car.
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Old 05-19-2013, 11:41 AM   #179
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Both cars with the same tires on the same track...the Z/28 is going to be faster for many reasons. 1. it has 11" wide tires all the way around; more rubber on the road. 2. it's 300 lbs lighter (maybe more, we don't know yet). 3. it's weight balance will be more favorable allowing it greater speeds into, through and out of corners. 4. the power difference will be negligible; the LS7 engine has a much better torque range giving it the advantage on a road course. 5. brakes; the Z/28's brakes will enable it to survive serious braking lap after lap while the ZL1 will have heat issues. 6. aerodynamically the Z/28 is being optimized in many ways specifically for road course performance. Those are just a few we know of; when Stielow says they've made over 200 changes, there's some serious tweaking going on that goes way beyond sticky tires. It says something that the car is capable of handling 11" wide sticky tires like that without fuel starvation, oil starvation or suspension component failures...that's a LOT of side-force grip.

The ZL1 is a great street car that can be driven on the track and do well; there's nothing wrong with that or the fact that it will be beaten ON THE TRACK by a designed-for-the-track car.
And don't forget a lower COG and less unsprung weight.
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Old 05-19-2013, 12:59 PM   #180
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I think that the Z28 will be faster than any stock Corvette, except of the ZR1 or Z06 (Carbon edition)
Might be able to run with Z06. Think its a drivers race at that point.
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Old 05-19-2013, 02:04 PM   #181
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Trolling? K. Weird. Zl1 is the car, not the tires. Z28 is a.car that needed sticky tires to perform as designed. The zl1 needs these as well but they gave it a tire that was a compromise between race and longevity. Both cars will be rubber scrubbing monsters. Both cars will always need sticky tires to show the CAR'S max potential. I only pointed out that two car that obviously need traction were compared, only one received more sticky stuff where it was needed. So, gm, trofeo up the zl1, let's see an official.time. anyone can put these tires on and race it, only GM's time is valid for evaluation.
You're still missing the point but its ok.
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Old 05-19-2013, 02:15 PM   #182
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Tuned for GY F2 tires? Really? Maybe they should have used the record setting Michelin's from the ZR1 runs at the NUrburgring.


Corvette credits much of the car’s added performance to its new Michelin Pilot Sport Cup Zero Pressure tires, which provided an 8 percent gain in lateral acceleration, as well as improved braking. The new tires are available on the flagship 638-hp ZR1 as well as on the 505-hp Z06.
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Old 05-19-2013, 04:23 PM   #183
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This thread about the 3 second "GAP" is getting abstract. I think what missing in most of it is GPA. Just trade the tires on each of the cars in question and see what becomes of it at Milford. Until then.............. study hard and keep giving us your PHD thesis.
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Old 05-19-2013, 04:45 PM   #184
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Hah. Still Same car. Broaden your horizon past your Chevy and your keyboard. M3, Z06, aventador, Italia, 911 turbo, and viper are different cars, modded Camaro gen 5's are modded camaros, whether modded by gm or by john q public. Same cars, one got race slick compound and one did not. That is fine. Not saying zl1 is better, never said that. Only said that if you want to compare lap times, give them both race compound or street tires. Pretty simple to comprehend, or so I thought. I see that some here see the logic and truth in that , some others cannot. I bet the "some others" just buy the cheapest tire available when you need replacements or you choose what tread pattern looks cool. Tires are just for driving to work on, right?
So if all Camaros are the same and we're gonna compare all Camaros with the same tires, should we throw the LS wheels/tires on the SS, 1LE, ZL1, and Z/28? That's the only way we can have a fair comparison right?

And regarding your earlier post about not seeing times at the 'Ring: it was months after we saw pics of the ZL1 at the 'Ring that we finally got times for it. But I guess GM was embarrassed by those times too, right?
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Old 05-19-2013, 06:40 PM   #185
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Do we know what tires were used on the Zl1 during the 3 second slower benchmark? Maybe they were the latest and greatest. If GM says it's three seconds faster, I don't think it's just a tire advantage. Maybe a little, but if that 3 seconds disappears with the same tires, GM went through a lot of trouble for nothing.

Maybe they will come out and let us know what tires were used, or if the tires were different, they will re run the test with the same tires.
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Old 05-19-2013, 07:27 PM   #186
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Q. Why are we placing this on the homepage front and center after so much time has passed and we already know this?
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Old 05-19-2013, 11:27 PM   #187
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This thread about the 3 second "GAP" is getting abstract. I think what missing in most of it is GPA. Just trade the tires on each of the cars in question and see what becomes of it at Milford. Until then.............. study hard and keep giving us your PHD thesis.
Amen.

And, to those who believe that a car was designed for a certain tire and that giving it a better tire will not make the car faster...Wow.

And about hanging with a Z06, sure, just put three extra people in there and raise it up a couple inches. HAHA, GM is doing you guys a favor in not releasing the Ring times, the sky is the limit for your Z28 imaginations.

Tires make a huge Difference, more than any other modification in that price range! And the Trofeos were just released in 20's, now we just the release of the Z28, so we can put this 3 second farce to death.

And to the comment that the ZL1 will just shred the Trofeo's, sure, it actuall will, while it rails by a z28 at the ring.
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Old 05-19-2013, 11:31 PM   #188
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Q. Why are we placing this on the homepage front and center after so much time has passed and we already know this?
Yeah, why, it's old news that isn't even relevant when the tires are worth the 0.05 G's on their own.

Come on GM, same tires, same track, same driver...prove that the Z28 is 3 seconds faster.
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Old 05-19-2013, 11:34 PM   #189
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Oh. I'm a troll because I don't agree with you . Or because you are afraid I am right. It is the latter. hah hah.
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Old 05-19-2013, 11:39 PM   #190
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It is the latter. hah hah.
This is why you are a troll. You only seem to be interested in causing "issues" with your statements.
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Old 05-19-2013, 11:45 PM   #191
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Q. Why are we placing this on the homepage front and center after so much time has passed and we already know this?
Maybe somebody knows there is some info coming.....
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Old 05-20-2013, 12:02 AM   #192
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This is why you are a troll. You only seem to be interested in causing "issues" with your statements.
You don't understand the troll concept very well, or the tire one either, whatever.

I have every right to post statements of speculative performance on a car just as you folks can speculate that it will be faster than a Z06 , will do the quarter in 10 seconds, and has a much lower center of gravity than another car with the same exact chassis. It can have a lower COG, technically, if it is 1/4 in lower, good luck with extremely dramatic performance changes though. Point is still, Pirelli used the rubber compound from their Race slicks on these tires, they are getting a rep -world wide- as the stickiest street rubber, they will improve the track times of ANY car they are put on, GM wanted to improve the track time on a camaro chasis, they couldnt have the torque of the ZL1, they give it slicks, so it could keep it's speed out through a corner. (yeah, some of you may think the LS7 has a broader torque curve that the LSA, it doesnt. They Z06 LS7 needs RPM to make power, at low RPM it lugs with a 3100 lb car, it will be worse with a 3800 lb car) these are fact from a person that drove a modified LS7 Z06 for a long time, accept it, the Z28 needed the tires to make that track time.

I'm one the few, if not the only person in this thread, who has owned an LS7 car, but I guess that makes me a troll. okey dokee.
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:23 AM   #193
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Maybe somebody knows there is some info coming.....
I hope it is. Can't hardly wait for more test info.
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:34 AM   #194
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Oh. I'm a troll because I don't agree with you . Or because you are afraid I am right. It is the latter. hah hah.
Here's a real NIGHTMARE....Mark Stielow drove YOUR ZL1 faster than you ever will at Gingerman Raceway. He then drove his personal 1969 Camaro faster than YOUR ZL1 by several seconds in a single lap at Gingerman Raceway. He knew how important it was to make YOU and YOUR ZL1 look bad so he CHEATED by making sure his Camaro had STICKY TIRES that YOUR ZL1 didn't so he could beat it and make YOU personally look bad. You're the ONLY ONE THAT'S FIGURED THIS OUT!!!! He hates you now. He's out to get you...

It gets worse....

Mark Stielow convinced GM to put him in charge of the Z/28 program so he could continue embarrassing YOU PERSONALLY by developing a car that's a NIGHTMARE for you by giving it STICKY TIRES because he KNEW that would enable him to make this new Z/28 make YOUR ZL1 look bad on the Nurburgring. GM is TOTALLY BEHIND THIS and gave him millions of dollars to carry out this PERSONAL insult to YOU and YOUR ZL1. They gave him the budget to fly an entire team plus cars over to Germany to do this because they REALLY WANTED to make YOUR ZL1 look worse than their new Z/28.

They did and are doing all this because they know how unbelievably important this thread is to not only their reputation, but the motoring world in general. They're afraid of you and how smart you are for figuring out their sticky tire trick!

SO....pony up son! Buy a set of Trofeos, slap them onto your mighty ZL1 and go to Gingerman Raceway and SHOW THEM PERSONALLY what CHEATERS and DECEIVERS they are. You'll be famous! Go for it. We'll be waiting to see the video and news reports. This will be....epic....

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Old 05-20-2013, 01:48 AM   #195
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Here's a real NIGHTMARE....Mark Stielow drove YOUR ZL1 faster than you ever will at Gingerman Raceway. He then drove his personal 1969 Camaro faster than YOUR ZL1 by several seconds in a single lap at Gingerman Raceway. He knew how important it was to make YOU and YOUR ZL1 look bad so he CHEATED by making sure his Camaro had STICKY TIRES that YOUR ZL1 didn't so he could beat it and make YOU personally look bad. You're the ONLY ONE THAT'S FIGURED THIS OUT!!!! He hates you now. He's out to get you...

It gets worse....

Mark Stielow convinced GM to put him in charge of the Z/28 program so he could continue embarrassing YOU PERSONALLY by developing a car that's a NIGHTMARE for you by giving it STICKY TIRES because he KNEW that would enable him to make this new Z/28 make YOUR ZL1 look bad on the Nurburgring. GM is TOTALLY BEHIND THIS and gave him millions of dollars to carry out this PERSONAL insult to YOU and YOUR ZL1. They gave him the budget to fly an entire team plus cars over to Germany to do this because they REALLY WANTED to make YOUR ZL1 look worse than their new Z/28.

They did and are doing all this because they know how unbelievably important this thread is to not only their reputation, but the motoring world in general. They're afraid of you and how smart you are for figuring out their sticky tire trick!

SO....pony up son! Buy a set of Trofeos, slap them onto your mighty ZL1 and go to Gingerman Raceway and SHOW THEM PERSONALLY what CHEATERS and DECEIVERS they are. You'll be famous! Go for it. We'll be waiting to see the video and news reports. This will be....epic....


Yeah that was awesome vid, that car didn't have more power(yeah it did) and it didn't have 1000 lbs less weight(yeah, it did), and since it is not the same chassis, it isn't even related to this debate. good try though. Looks like I am still your nightmare Your angle of attack was about as relevant as putting the camaro against a Zonda.

And, again, learn to read, I never said cheaters. I said, have your man drive both cars with same tires. Pretty simple concept, but too much for you to comprehend, so you gather unrelated facts and then attack my driving ability, which was never brought up or even in question. Wow, look at you getting so upset because you cannot fathom such a simple concept as, "show me the times of both cars, with same tires, with the same GM driver. Now, calm down, change your diaper, breath, take your ritalin, and get back on topic. There is a three second difference, prove it is not just the tires.

You make your profile appear as though you race cars, but if you believe that tires don't matter, then your driving skills must be as bad as your debate ability. looks as if my driving ability is not the one to be doubted.
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Old 05-20-2013, 02:06 AM   #196
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Also on Mark Stielow, ask him if the Trofeos would Significantly improve the ZL1 lap time...he will say yes, without a doubt.
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Old 05-20-2013, 02:17 AM   #197
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Old 05-20-2013, 03:52 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by Doc View Post
Here's a real NIGHTMARE....Mark Stielow drove YOUR ZL1 faster than you ever will at Gingerman Raceway. He then drove his personal 1969 Camaro faster than YOUR ZL1 by several seconds in a single lap at Gingerman Raceway. He knew how important it was to make YOU and YOUR ZL1 look bad so he CHEATED by making sure his Camaro had STICKY TIRES that YOUR ZL1 didn't so he could beat it and make YOU personally look bad. You're the ONLY ONE THAT'S FIGURED THIS OUT!!!! He hates you now. He's out to get you...

It gets worse....

Mark Stielow convinced GM to put him in charge of the Z/28 program so he could continue embarrassing YOU PERSONALLY by developing a car that's a NIGHTMARE for you by giving it STICKY TIRES because he KNEW that would enable him to make this new Z/28 make YOUR ZL1 look bad on the Nurburgring. GM is TOTALLY BEHIND THIS and gave him millions of dollars to carry out this PERSONAL insult to YOU and YOUR ZL1. They gave him the budget to fly an entire team plus cars over to Germany to do this because they REALLY WANTED to make YOUR ZL1 look worse than their new Z/28.

They did and are doing all this because they know how unbelievably important this thread is to not only their reputation, but the motoring world in general. They're afraid of you and how smart you are for figuring out their sticky tire trick!

SO....pony up son! Buy a set of Trofeos, slap them onto your mighty ZL1 and go to Gingerman Raceway and SHOW THEM PERSONALLY what CHEATERS and DECEIVERS they are. You'll be famous! Go for it. We'll be waiting to see the video and news reports. This will be....epic....

Wow!! GM went through all that just to make his car look bad, Moral of this story dont piss G.M off! The following said with a hint of sarcasm
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Old 05-20-2013, 06:26 AM   #199
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HAHA HAHA HAHA

That's what I want to see with ZL1 and Z/28!!!!
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Performance
AirAid CAI
Apex Motorsports ported spiraled Throttle Body
Kooks 1 7/8" LT headers and 3" mid-pipes (cat delete)
Hurst shifter
Dyno Tune

Cosmetic
Camaro badge GOBO door lights
"SS" badge GOBO hood and trunk lights
Blacked out side markers with 30% tint
Blacked out tail lights with 30% tint
Afterburner tail lights
Blue / white color changing headlight and foglight HALOs
Blue LED upper and lower grille accent lights
30% tint windows
Plasma fog light bulbs
DRL harness
"BDMFER" Hawaii state issued license plates
"Bad Mother****er" custom blue lighted door sills
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Old 05-20-2013, 08:35 AM   #200
Bell040


 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brt3 View Post
The ZL1 ran a 7:41.27 at the Nordschleife. A Corvette C6 Z06, with DOT competition tires and the Z07 package, ran 7:22.68. I'm betting the Z/28 ought to turn a 7:33 -- which would make it one of the fastest cars per dollar at The Ring...
It did run 7:41:27, but I don't think I would call that a stock ZL1



http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=175148
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