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Old 05-20-2013, 08:48 AM   #201
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Yeah that was awesome vid, that car didn't have more power(yeah it did) and it didn't have 1000 lbs less weight(yeah, it did), and since it is not the same chassis, it isn't even related to this debate. good try though. Looks like I am still your nightmare Your angle of attack was about as relevant as putting the camaro against a Zonda.

And, again, learn to read, I never said cheaters. I said, have your man drive both cars with same tires. Pretty simple concept, but too much for you to comprehend, so you gather unrelated facts and then attack my driving ability, which was never brought up or even in question. Wow, look at you getting so upset because you cannot fathom such a simple concept as, "show me the times of both cars, with same tires, with the same GM driver. Now, calm down, change your diaper, breath, take your ritalin, and get back on topic. There is a three second difference, prove it is not just the tires.

You make your profile appear as though you race cars, but if you believe that tires don't matter, then your driving skills must be as bad as your debate ability. looks as if my driving ability is not the one to be doubted.
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Also on Mark Stielow, ask him if the Trofeos would Significantly improve the ZL1 lap time...he will say yes, without a doubt.
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You don't get it because you simply don't want to. You think you're making some kind of awesome point over tires when nobody including Mark Stielow would say otherwise. You don't have any actual points to make and your posts are not contributing anything of value so keep your tin foil hat on and keep looking out the window; they could be coming to get you any minute!
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Old 05-20-2013, 09:30 AM   #202
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Although I have never run the Trofeos, I do have extensive experience with DOT competition tires. Over the years I’ve run Hoosiers, Michelin MPSC, BFG R1, Toyo RA1, etc. Around a track like Mid-Ohio all of these tires beat the best street tires by at least 3 seconds. The new Hoosier R6s and BFG g-Force R1s are probably 4 and maybe even 5 seconds faster.
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Old 05-20-2013, 09:47 AM   #203
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Careful Jim, slow poke doc might take offense to your valid opinion. But in case it flew way over his head, as most things apparently do, i must emphasize that you are saying that race tires have enabled your to reduce lap times by whole seconds. I have had that same experience. Alas, we are the minority in this thread. Luckily, you do not drive a ZL1, because that would automatically diminish your credibility here. BTW, thank you for your information. I really didn't know the lap time reduction would be that significant.
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Old 05-20-2013, 09:53 AM   #204
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You don't get it because you simply don't want to. You think you're making some kind of awesome point over tires when nobody including Mark Stielow would say otherwise. You don't have any actual points to make and your posts are not contributing anything of value so keep your tin foil hat on and keep looking out the window; they could be coming to get you any minute!
I am making a very awesome point, one that is lost on you. If mark chose those tires for the z28, he knew exactly what they could do, and knew it would help the z28 close the power gap with the zl1. I would have done the same thing. I hope they are cutting some additional weight now in your dream car, it probably needed it.

I suppose you think that jim , above, doesn't have any actual points either? Id like to see your counter to his experience, UFO's?
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Old 05-20-2013, 10:30 AM   #205
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You don't understand the troll concept very well, or the tire one either, whatever.

I have every right to post statements of speculative performance on a car just as you folks can speculate that it will be faster than a Z06 , will do the quarter in 10 seconds, and has a much lower center of gravity than another car with the same exact chassis. It can have a lower COG, technically, if it is 1/4 in lower, good luck with extremely dramatic performance changes though. Point is still, Pirelli used the rubber compound from their Race slicks on these tires, they are getting a rep -world wide- as the stickiest street rubber, they will improve the track times of ANY car they are put on, GM wanted to improve the track time on a camaro chasis, they couldnt have the torque of the ZL1, they give it slicks, so it could keep it's speed out through a corner. (yeah, some of you may think the LS7 has a broader torque curve that the LSA, it doesnt. They Z06 LS7 needs RPM to make power, at low RPM it lugs with a 3100 lb car, it will be worse with a 3800 lb car) these are fact from a person that drove a modified LS7 Z06 for a long time, accept it, the Z28 needed the tires to make that track time.

I'm one the few, if not the only person in this thread, who has owned an LS7 car, but I guess that makes me a troll. okey dokee.

Yes the Trofeos would improve most any cars track time.

However that's not what the ZL1 is "only" about, its a street car that can be a DD "first" and thats the way it was designed to be. As for the Z/28 it is primarily a track car that allows you to legally drive it to the track. As for COG we know the Z/28 suspension has been lowered. The 19" wheels and tires have also lowered it. It does not have a S/C so it's less top heavy. All this adds up to a lower COG. Yes again, the LSA is more torquey its a S/C'd engine. It's built for off the line and all around performance. You having owned one know the LS7 is built to track with its higher rpm's and mid range torque. So to end, yes the ZL1 doing a hero lap would be faster than it is now (wearing GY's) with the Z/28's tires around a track. But then again your concerned about the 3 second comment which was an "early" accomplishment...where is the Z/28 at now?
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Old 05-20-2013, 10:34 AM   #206
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(to NightmareZL1) You don't get it because you simply don't want to. You think you're making some kind of awesome point over tires when nobody including Mark Stielow would say otherwise. You don't have any actual points to make and your posts are not contributing anything of value so keep your tin foil hat on and keep looking out the window; they could be coming to get you any minute!
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Although I have never run the Trofeos, I do have extensive experience with DOT competition tires. Over the years I’ve run Hoosiers, Michelin MPSC, BFG R1, Toyo RA1, etc. Around a track like Mid-Ohio all of these tires beat the best street tires by at least 3 seconds. The new Hoosier R6s and BFG g-Force R1s are probably 4 and maybe even 5 seconds faster.
Thanks for your contribution Jim but as I pointed out and many have, nobody is questioning this. Everybody knows track tires on the track out-perform street tires. What some people assumed was that the only thing that made the Z/28 faster than the ZL1 were the Trofeos and that GM isn't posting the Z/28's Nurburgring times because they're embarrassed and trying to hide something. Mark Stielow is legendary for his abilities and knows very well the difference tires makes. He doesn't think that just putting Trofeos on the Z/28 is all he needs to do. He knows since it's a track car he HAS to develop it for track tires since that's what Z/28 owners are going to be using on it. He's tweaking everything on the car to handle the g-forces it's going to sustain on the track with track tires, hence the brakes, the custom shocks, the differential, and everything else. He knows what he's doing which is a point some have apparently either missed or just don't want to acknowledge.

You sound experienced and I appreciate your contribution to the thread.
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:13 AM   #207
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I'm sure tires are going to be the least of upgrades differentiating the 2012 - up ZL1 and the 2014 Z/28. Here are a few to consider when debating how much any one change might make a significant difference in the targeted performance disparity between these two versions.

*Z/28 LS7 figures based on currently published production LS7 specifications.

HP/TQ
ZL1: 580 bhp @6000 rpm / 556 lb-ft @4200 rpm
Z/28: *505 bhp @6300 rpm / 470 lb-ft @4800 rpm

Advantage: ZL1

MAX RPM
ZL1: 6200RPM
Z/28: *7100RPM
Advantage: Z/28

Brakes
ZL1: Brembo Calipers - 6 Piston @Front, 4 piston @Rear with Brembo 2-Piece Steel Rotors.
Z/28: Brembo Calipers - 6 Piston @Front, 4 piston @Rear with Brembo Carbon Ceramic Rotors.

Advantage Z/28

Tires
ZL1: Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar:G2 285/35R20 @Front, 305/35R20 @Rear
Z/28: Pirelli PZero Trofeo R 305/30ZR19 @Front, P305/30ZR19 @Rear

Let's recall that both the 2013 GT500 and 2012 ZL1 wore Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar:G2 in the Car&Driver Lightning Lap comparison and HP advantage alone was not enough to close the gap, around the track. I realize there are many other differences besides tires, but that's the point.

Advantage Z/28

Aerodynamics/Lift
ZL1: 65 Net lbs of downforce at 150 MPH
Z/28: Al Oppenheiser "at some point when we tell you how much, it will knock your socks off how much down force this car makes.”

Advantage Z/28

Suspension
ZL1: 3rd Generation Magnetoreheologically adaptive suspension system
Z/28: Dynamic Suspension Spool Valve (DSSV) dampening system (Anecdotally, also used on the Aston Martin One-77 "Supercar")

Advantage Z/28

Weight
ZL1: 4120
Z/28: @ < 3800

Advantage Z/28

Chassis Dynamics
ZL1: Great
Z/28: Even Better

Advantage Z/28
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:42 AM   #208
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I'm sure tires are going to be the least of upgrades differentiating the 2012 - up ZL1 and the 2014 Z/28. Here are a few to consider when debating how much any one change might make a significant difference in the targeted performance disparity between these two versions.
Dry Sump for high g loading engine longevity.
Variety of coolers to keep the trans/diff/PS from committing suicide on hot track days.
Linear power delivery NA powerband, more controllable on track.
Seats that hold you in place and act as the first line safety system.
Stiffer bushings/mountings for better control and feel.

Advantage Z/28

It goes on and on...
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Old 05-20-2013, 11:59 AM   #209
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The last few posts shed some real light on this argument. Thanks for taking the time to outline everything.

Let's not forget (these have already been mentioned):

Weight Distribution
Advantage Z/28

Engine Architecture
(Naturally Aspirated vs. Supercharged)
Advantage Z/28


Center of Gravity (COG)
Advantage Z/28

I'm sure there are more. Not to discredit the ZL1 but these are things that will help the Z/28 on the track. ZL1 is still a great car.
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Old 05-20-2013, 12:16 PM   #210
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ZL1 is still a great car.
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Old 05-20-2013, 12:21 PM   #211
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I am making a very awesome point, one that is lost on you. If mark chose those tires for the z28, he knew exactly what they could do, and knew it would help the z28 close the power gap with the zl1. I would have done the same thing. I hope they are cutting some additional weight now in your dream car, it probably needed it.

I suppose you think that jim , above, doesn't have any actual points either? Id like to see your counter to his experience, UFO's?

I have been following these recent z/28 threads and noticed that you are pretty dang persistent in suggesting that putting the trofeos on the zl1 would close the 3 second gap between the zl1 and the z/28.

So instead of just making guesses based on hearsay, I did some reading of previous testing to see how accurate your proposal is. What I found was interesting... it may just put this to rest (though knowing you, i somehow doubt that )

Car and driver did a lightning lap of the Corvette ZR1 in both 2010, and 2012. the only... ONLY difference between the two cars is that the 2012 had michelin's best semi slick "sport cup" tires (80TW) and the 2010 had michelin pilot sport PS2's (220TW). This is similar to the difference between the eagle f1 g2's (220TW) and Pirelli's best semi slick "Trofeo R" tires (60TW).

LINK

On the 4.1 mile VIR course, the ZR1 with the 80TW tires was 1.1 seconds faster than the ZR1 with the 220TW tires. That's a great improvement no doubt, but it is quite a bit shy of the 3-4 seconds that people are speculating the tires would give back. Also, this was on a 4.1 mile course, not a 2.9 mile, so the tire advantage would likely be even smaller than that.

I suspect a similar case with the ZL1 tires switched to trofeo's. while they will definitely improve lap times, it won't do so by 3 - 4 seconds on such a small course. Around 1 second is much more likely.
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:03 PM   #212
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Old 05-20-2013, 01:09 PM   #213
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Michelin Pilot Sport Cups may not be the best tire to use for comparison purposes. These tires need to be HOT to work at their best. In cooler conditions it can be very difficult to get them up to temperature, and below 60 degrees ambient it’s pretty much impossible. On my race car on a 75 degree day I can get Hoosier R6’s up to optimum temperature in about half a lap, but MPSC’s take at least two laps. This is why you don’t see anyone actually racing on these tires anymore.

If this test was done on a cool day, or by a driver who failed to get them up to temperature then this is simply not a valid comparison.
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Old 05-20-2013, 02:38 PM   #214
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On a related note... they put slicks on the Viper TA and it gained 3 seconds at MRLS over the P Zero Corsas. So if the Z/28 is all tire, the Torfeo must be one heck of a tire. In reality I suspect the gain for ZL1 would not be a full 3 seconds, probably would be lucky if it were 1.5 seconds.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1303_2014_srt_viper_ta/viewall.html
Just For Fun: Slicks!

For no good reason other than "Why not?" we went ahead and stuck a set of shaved and heat-cycled racing slicks on the Viper TA. We happened to have Matt Edmunds, vice president of Tire Rack, with us. I asked him how much of a difference slicks would make around MRLS. "About 3 seconds," was his knowing reply. Hey, the TA stands for Time Attack, right? Rest assured, Randy attacked that time, popping off a blistering lap in 1:30.78 for the slicks versus 1:33.62 for the Corsas. (Mr. Edmunds was right on the money.)


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Old 05-20-2013, 02:45 PM   #215
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thread closed
you mean no more grown men trolls trying to get the last word in using high school insults? cmon!
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Old 05-20-2013, 03:10 PM   #216
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the biggest problem here is that everyone is assuming that the ls7 in the z28 will only have 500bhp. gm stated in a press release that the z28 will have the best power to weight ratio of all Camaro. that either means that it is 3500 pounds or is making at least 540bhp.
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Old 05-20-2013, 03:45 PM   #217
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the biggest problem here is that everyone is assuming that the ls7 in the z28 will only have 500bhp. gm stated in a press release that the z28 will have the best power to weight ratio of all Camaro. that either means that it is 3500 pounds or is making at least 540bhp.
That would be awesome if it is true (I hope it is). However I don't recall ever reading that from any official mouthpiece. Source please?



I've been trying to make some sense of what hp/tq could be but hopes were dashed when I learned the new tri-y headers are more restrictive. Other factors potentially at play, of course, and hope springs eternal
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Old 05-20-2013, 03:51 PM   #218
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I have been following these recent z/28 threads and noticed that you are pretty dang persistent in suggesting that putting the trofeos on the zl1 would close the 3 second gap between the zl1 and the z/28.

So instead of just making guesses based on hearsay, I did some reading of previous testing to see how accurate your proposal is. What I found was interesting... it may just put this to rest (though knowing you, i somehow doubt that )

Car and driver did a lightning lap of the Corvette ZR1 in both 2010, and 2012. the only... ONLY difference between the two cars is that the 2012 had michelin's best semi slick "sport cup" tires (80TW) and the 2010 had michelin pilot sport PS2's (220TW). This is similar to the difference between the eagle f1 g2's (220TW) and Pirelli's best semi slick "Trofeo R" tires (60TW).

LINK

On the 4.1 mile VIR course, the ZR1 with the 80TW tires was 1.1 seconds faster than the ZR1 with the 220TW tires. That's a great improvement no doubt, but it is quite a bit shy of the 3-4 seconds that people are speculating the tires would give back. Also, this was on a 4.1 mile course, not a 2.9 mile, so the tire advantage would likely be even smaller than that.

I suspect a similar case with the ZL1 tires switched to trofeo's. while they will definitely improve lap times, it won't do so by 3 - 4 seconds on such a small course. Around 1 second is much more likely.


Opinions = too many

Opinions supported with objective facts and analysis = way, way too few.
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Old 05-20-2013, 04:13 PM   #219
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gm stated in a press release that the z28 will have the best power to weight ratio of all Camaro.
I can't seem to find this info. Where did you get it? I hope your right....
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Old 05-20-2013, 04:44 PM   #220
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That would be awesome if it is true (I hope it is). However I don't recall ever reading that from any official mouthpiece. Source please?



I've been trying to make some sense of what hp/tq could be but hopes were dashed when I learned the new tri-y headers are more restrictive. Other factors potentially at play, of course, and hope springs eternal
If they were just going to drop the LS7 from the vette in it then they would have said so and we'd know the exact power. However they said "about 500 hp" which means they aren't just doing off-the-shelf and are obviously tweaking that too. They're doing that with everything apparently.

Al O said they exceeded their goal of weight reduction of 100 lbs less than an SS but didn't say how much more. Mark Reuss said "about 500 hp" which indicates it will have more than the vette version of the LS7 but they haven't said how much more. At Milford which is a relatively short track it was already faster by 3 seconds than the ZL1; on the Nurburgring which is much longer it's going to be substantial.

Mark isn't just building a weekend racer, he's building a series championship car which is the true heritage of the Z/28.
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Old 05-20-2013, 04:46 PM   #221
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If they were just going to drop the LS7 from the vette in it then they would have said so and we'd know the exact power. However they said "about 500 hp" which means they aren't just doing off-the-shelf and are obviously tweaking that too. They're doing that with everything apparently.
I was thinking the same thing.
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Old 05-20-2013, 04:59 PM   #222
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Actually is was said to be "more" than 500 HP.
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Old 05-20-2013, 07:17 PM   #223
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That would be awesome if it is true (I hope it is). However I don't recall ever reading that from any official mouthpiece. Source please?



I've been trying to make some sense of what hp/tq could be but hopes were dashed when I learned the new tri-y headers are more restrictive. Other factors potentially at play, of course, and hope springs eternal
http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f...z-28-a-117322/

Under the cutting weight section, it clearly states that the Z/28 Camaro will have the best power to weight ratio of any version of the Camaro.

Of course there is always the chance that the statement was a error, though if it isn't an error then it suggest more power then 500BHP. BTW in GMs press release it does state at least 500BHP, also for the stock LS7 engine the most restrictive part of that engine isn't the exhaust manifold/headers but the exhaust port itself.

The ZL1 Camaro at 4,100 pounds and 580BHP has a power to weight ratio of 7.1 pounds per horsepower. If the Z/28 Camaro is 3,780 pounds and packs 500BHP that gives it a power to weight ratio of 7.5 pounds per horsepower (still very good). The current SS Camaro is stated as weighing in at (no options) 3,860 pounds (source chevy website) which would put the Z/28 at 3,760 pounds roughly. If they reduced more then 100 pounds then it would put its weight at even lower.
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Old 05-20-2013, 07:23 PM   #224
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http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f...z-28-a-117322/

Under the cutting weight section, it clearly states that the Z/28 Camaro will have the best power to weight ratio of any version of the Camaro.

Of course there is always the chance that the statement was a error, though if it isn't an error then it suggest more power then 500BHP. BTW in GMs press release it does state at least 500BHP, also for the stock LS7 engine the most restrictive part of that engine isn't the exhaust manifold/headers but the exhaust port itself.

That's not actually the press release it's a article written by a staff writer, It's more than likely a error..... I still hope it's right though.
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Old 05-20-2013, 07:43 PM   #225
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That is impressive.
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