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Old 04-07-2013, 06:59 PM   #76
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Since I will not be getting a 14 Z/28 I guess I should just stay off the Forums for them. Being a big Z fan I thought I would try it, but it didn't seem to go over very well. It was just my opinion of what I was hoping the car would be.
Hope all you guys who must be getting them, by the sounds of it, really enjoy them and be safe.
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Old 04-07-2013, 07:03 PM   #77
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You aren't getting more for less. You are getting far more performance parts for more and less non performance parts.

In my opinion, non performance parts don't make a great car. I don't need in car nav, I have a phone with GPS. I don't need satellite radio, I have an iPod. I don't need power seats, I can move the seat myself. I don't need a lot of stuff that comes in modern Camaros and don't want to pay for but I don't have a choice.
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Old 04-08-2013, 08:57 AM   #78
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Since I will not be getting a 14 Z/28 I guess I should just stay off the Forums for them. Being a big Z fan I thought I would try it, but it didn't seem to go over very well. It was just my opinion of what I was hoping the car would be.
I rather doubt that there is room above the SS in the Camaro lineup for three distinctly different flavors of upgraded performance with luxury; one of them would very likely get squeezed out. As it is, even the 1LE level is neither intended nor expected to appeal to the entire Camaro customer base. As mentioned, the 1LE is the Z/28 for most folks, with the ZL1 being the Z/28 for a few more.

Try to grasp the notion that some of us actively do not want any more new technology features than what it takes to get the performance. That there is such a thing as too much refinement - this being possible even in one's daily-driver if you want my absolutely honest opinion.

My guess is that the above attitude is more widely recognized within the Z/28 forum than just about anywhere else on this site. So when suggestions are made that the Z/28 should be available with all sorts of C&C features, it comes off sounding like a request that the original hardcore intent of the car be watered down to be just like every other car on the market. And make the Z/28 less special in the process.

Suppose you could somehow make enough chassis and suspension mods to bring your 1971 Z28 up to near-parity with the '14 Z/28 at least on most surfaces, and kill off a few bothersome structural vibrations in the process. If you're at all familiar with the Pro-Touring side of the automotive hobby or watched a well-driven ESP 2nd gen Camaro run through the cones, you know that it's at least possible. With the possible addition of A/C if yours does not have it, would you really want to clutter that car up with all of today's features to the point of costing it some of its identity?


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Old 04-08-2013, 10:38 AM   #79
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I dont see whats so impressive about what is essentially a painted body in white camaro.

Why are bragging about a car that is losing technology?

Id be much more impressed if this car could whip a ZL1 aroujd a road course while still having navigation, more than 1 speaker, sound deadening materials in place and kept the jack and tire in back.

How much faster would a ZL1 be with the same applications?
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Old 04-08-2013, 11:06 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Rikki Tikki Tavi View Post
I dont see whats so impressive about what is essentially a painted body in white camaro.

Why are bragging about a car that is losing technology?

Id be much more impressed if this car could whip a ZL1 aroujd a road course while still having navigation, more than 1 speaker, sound deadening materials in place and kept the jack and tire in back.

How much faster would a ZL1 be with the same applications?
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Old 04-08-2013, 11:08 AM   #81
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I see a lot of sour grapes in here.....
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Old 04-08-2013, 11:41 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Rikki Tikki Tavi View Post
How much faster would a ZL1 be with the same applications?



Exactly.
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Old 04-08-2013, 11:43 AM   #83
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Building a muscle car that the workers for GM can't even afford. Brilliant.
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Old 04-08-2013, 11:52 AM   #84
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Anyone who thinks this car will be any less than $60K is crazy. The brakes and the engine alone probably cost over $20K.
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Old 04-08-2013, 12:13 PM   #85
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I dont see whats so impressive about what is essentially a painted body in white camaro.
Because it is clearly NOT intended to appeal to everybody, and yet it's still being built. If you don't get it, don't worry about it. Not everybody "gets" Caterhams or SBC-powered deuce coupes either.

Quote:
Why are bragging about a car that is losing technology?
Because technologies that you do not even want in the first place have less than zero value to you (so the car gets better without them). That so many people can't seem to grasp this is just icing on the cake.


Quote:
Id be much more impressed if this car could whip a ZL1 aroujd a road course while still having navigation, more than 1 speaker, sound deadening materials in place and kept the jack and tire in back.
If you have to have luxury with your performance, you don't really want a car with a hardcore race-car character about it. I think that used to be the distinction between a GT car and a sports car.


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Old 04-08-2013, 12:27 PM   #86
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Because it is clearly NOT intended to appeal to everybody, and yet it's still being built. If you don't get it, don't worry about it. Not everybody "gets" Caterhams or SBC-powered deuce coupes either.

Because technologies that you do not even want in the first place have less than zero value to you (so the car gets better without them). That so many people can't seem to grasp this is just icing on the cake.

If you have to have luxury with your performance, you don't really want a car with a hardcore race-car character about it. I think that used to be the distinction between a GT car and a sports car.

Norm
I'm blown away that in this day and age GM built a "street-legal" car like this...I think it's awesome...

A factory car not loaded to the gills with creature comforts and rolling office/entertainment systems...

....The "Re-Fresh"ing part of all this to me, is that they still know what a "muscle" car can be...That is, focus on the "muscle" part, and cut out the "fat"....my $.02
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Old 04-08-2013, 12:34 PM   #87
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IMO its an up to date street legal race car. Theyve doen an excellent job with. If I was on an eng.team, I'd try to strip some of the interior even further such as deleted back seat, no plastic interior components on the rear. Much of the technology in the car is must have like power locks ect. Theyre not going backwards with technology such as power locks n such but itd be nice to have manual windows as an option. I'd love to know more about the mechanical aspects of the car to see how much of it can actually be stripped away. If I had the oopertunity and know how, Id definitely try converting a V-6 to a V-8. Im not sure how much of the wiring is necessary as well as what exactly the ECU needs to perform properly. In the future, I'm thinking of buying an older non computered car and making it a race car with suspension upgrades stripped down to basically bare essentals with a modern engine in it.I've got plenty of time to figure out how exactly the ECU works. To me there has to be things that dont have to be connected to have it properly work.
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Old 04-08-2013, 12:41 PM   #88
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IMO its an up to date street legal race car. Theyve doen an excellent job with. If I was on an eng.team, I'd try to strip some of the interior even further such as deleted back seat, no plastic interior components on the rear. Much of the technology in the car is must have like power locks ect. Theyre not going backwards with technology such as power locks n such but itd be nice to have manual windows as an option. I'd love to know more about the mechanical aspects of the car to see how much of it can actually be stripped away. If I had the oopertunity and know how, Id definitely try converting a V-6 to a V-8. Im not sure how much of the wiring is necessary as well as what exactly the ECU needs to perform properly. In the future, I'm thinking of buying an older non computered car and making it a race car with suspension upgrades stripped down to basically bare essentals with a modern engine in it.I've got plenty of time to figure out how exactly the ECU works. To me there has to be things that dont have to be connected to have it properly work.
I like your style...lol...I could be wrong, but I think as far as modern technology, power window systems are actually lighter than what would be needed for manual...

....I've thought of at some point down the road, when these cars are more affordable as used/older cars, building a stripped down street car...lol...I think more of that sort of average joe "hot-rodding" will be seen eventually...
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Old 04-08-2013, 12:46 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALLTRBO View Post
Just how stripped down is the 2014 Z/28? Let's break it down.
It has (or most likely will- if not confirmed), in no particular order...


-power steering (variable assist electric)—necessary for cars these days, find me one without it
-power brakes—necessary for reliability
-power mirrors
-ABS—necessary for reliability and safety
-power windows (express up/down)—this or fixed windows, manual would require engineering a crank on a single model which may cost more
-power locks—would be marginal weight reduction
-power trunk—would be marginal weight reduction
-keyless entry w/panic alarm—your key fob doesn't count into the car's weight
-tilt steering—does not add weight
-telescoping steering—does not add weight
-cruise control—does not add weight
-4 seats—all Camaros have 4 seats
-6 airbags—necessary for safety
-2 cupholders—possibly the most unreasonable thing to remove on this entire list, does not add weight
-12V power outlet—would be marginal weight reduction
-stability/traction control (if you're silly enough to keep them on in this car)
-radio with CD/MP3 player, AM/FM, XM, auto-volume, 6-page preset menu, 3-band EQ, 10-minute on-after-key-off feature, anti-theft, and one decent speaker—not standard equipment, may not be available at all, should not be on this list
-steering wheel mounted controls—not confirmed, would be marginal weight reduction
-configurable lock/unlock and horn/light settings—does not add weight
-automatic headlights—does not add weight
-2 trip odometers—does not add weight
-compass—does not add weight
-exterior temp gauge—would be marginal weight reduction
-average mileage/speed displays—does not add weight
-message center—does not add weight
-delayed courtesy light—would be marginal weight reduction to remove all lights
-heater/defroster
-rear defroster—same feature as above, redundant
-air conditioning (if you want it)—optional, and as such should not be on this list
-cabin air filter—would be marginal weight reduction
-huge trunk (albeit with a comically small opening)—now you're just trolling, the trunk is a cavity in the car
-glove box (lockable)—would be marginal weight reduction
-door panel storagestill trolling, those are cavities and therefore do not add weight
-center arm rest/storage—would be marginal weight reduction
-console front storage tray—would be marginal weight reduction
-alarm
-auto-dimming rear view mirror—not confirmed, would be marginal weight reduction
-variable intermittent wipers—try driving in the rain without them
-windshield washer
-OnStar with lock-out protection, turn-by-turn, theft tracking, and emergency response
-a full GM warranty—that's just trolling, does not add weight
-and a partridge in a pear tree—ah sarcasm

There may or may not be a couple things I forgot.


Some of you sissies need to quit whining, this thing does everything but wash the dishes for you.
Just my not-quite-humble opinion.


.
Please review rebuttals in red. If you removed all the "marginal weight" statements, the total would be less than 10 pounds, which most drivers could probably find at the gym. Most of the "do not add weight" features have to do with the dash assembly, driver information center, or other integral parts of the car.

A few points did not get red text. I didn't respond to those because I can see removing those.

As for most of the other complaints, we're just feeding the troll by arguing.
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Old 04-08-2013, 01:00 PM   #90
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I like your style...lol...I could be wrong, but I think as far as modern technology, power window systems are actually lighter than what would be needed for manual...

....I've thought of at some point down the road, when these cars are more affordable as used/older cars, building a stripped down street car...lol...I think more of that sort of average joe "hot-rodding" will be seen eventually...
You're probably right about electrical power locks weighing less than manual. Im sure its not a significant ratio in weight reduction one way or the other. I believe there has to be a way to clean and strip that engine bay to bare essentials. Maybe not a good way to convert a V6 to V8 but, I may even buy a 2010 SS later on and figure how much of that engine bay I can delete and have it work properly. If you look at a corvette, its basically all engine inside the engine bay compared to the camaro. Some of those electronics I think can be dissassembled and perhaps doen away with and function properly but Id have to disassemble it to actually see and my car was not bought for that purpose lol.
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Old 04-08-2013, 01:01 PM   #91
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Please review rebuttals in red. If you removed all the "marginal weight" statements, the total would be less than 10 pounds, which most drivers could probably find at the gym. Most of the "do not add weight" features have to do with the dash assembly, driver information center, or other integral parts of the car.

A few points did not get red text. I didn't respond to those because I can see removing those.

As for most of the other complaints, we're just feeding the troll by arguing.
One error in your rebuttal. It does come with a radio, that is how you have to set all the chimes, buzzers, delay lights, remote lock features, ect... Without it you cannot set anything.
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Old 04-08-2013, 01:05 PM   #92
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You're probably right about electrical power locks weighing less than manual. Im sure its not a significant ratio in weight reduction one way or the other. I believe there has to be a way to clean and strip that engine bay to bare essentials. Maybe not a good way to convert a V6 to V8 but, I may even buy a 2010 SS later on and figure how much of that engine bay I can delete and have it work properly. If you look at a corvette, its basically all engine inside the engine bay compared to the camaro. Some of those electronics I think can be dissassembled and perhaps doen away with and function properly but Id have to disassemble it to actually see and my car was not bought for that purpose lol.
I took a quick look recently at the chevyperformance web-site regarding the "body-in-white" cars...They're not the COPOS, but are bare bones and have several different wiring harnesses for what you may or may not build into the car...dunno, for sure but it was something like that...Might be helpful to see what these cars can and cannot live without...lol...
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Old 04-08-2013, 01:23 PM   #93
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I took a quick look recently at the chevyperformance web-site regarding the "body-in-white" cars...They're not the COPOS, but are bare bones and have several different wiring harnesses for what you may or may not build into the car...dunno, for sure but it was something like that...Might be helpful to see what these cars can and cannot live without...lol...
Exactly! I'll be looking at it because the wiring assembly for these cars should basically be a bare bones approach to making it work properly without all the bullcrap in it. I'd love to have one and strip it down to an approximate weight of no more than 3200lbs with a 427 in it along with suspension upgrades. I know there's books out there on chassis and suspension which you can learn about what race suppliments are needed to grip the road or track like velcro and can probably be done at much lower ost if done yourself. Though it'll take some R&D to properly make it run and grip well and for the price of $60k which would include bulletproofing the tranny, rear end and upgrading soem suspension along with engine upgrades for say 650-750 RWHP making it an absolute reliable beast of a track/strip car. I'd imagine that if you're in the low 11 seconds in a qrtr, not sure but I beleive its against the rules not to have a roll cage installed if youre in low 11s, but Im going to go with it being more of a track car than a strip car as I dont believe you can have best of both monsters as one or the other will falter. Either way itd be an extremely fun build.

If I could buy a Z/28 at a later date I'll sure as hell do it but I beleive the price will only go up since not many will be produced. Itll be a collector car as well as a track beast.
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Old 04-08-2013, 02:57 PM   #94
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LOL. I did the same same thing.

Curious about 3 things with those that think the z/28 is too 'basic':

1) Those that want more amenities in a the Z/28: What are they? You can add back in A/C, if you want a better stereo you can go aftermarket. I can't see what else you really must have in a track car in terms of 'amenities'
2) What is wrong with the ZL1 for you? Isn't this the car you really want?
3) Do you actually intended to use the car at a closed circuit regularly? If you already do this, I would be very surprised to hear complaints about having more options
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Old 04-08-2013, 04:02 PM   #95
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I'm blown away that in this day and age GM built a "street-legal" car like this...I think it's awesome...

A factory car not loaded to the gills with creature comforts and rolling office/entertainment systems...

....The "Re-Fresh"ing part of all this to me, is that they still know what a "muscle" car can be...That is, focus on the "muscle" part, and cut out the "fat"....my $.02
Whats to be blown away about it? This is exactly my point. The new z/28 isnt an engineering marvel aside from its breaking system. Chevy is gonna charge 60-70 probably even 80 grand on a concept thats been around for 50 years. All youd be doing is paying for some expensive breaks and z/28 badges.
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Old 04-08-2013, 04:29 PM   #96
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LOL. I did the same same thing.

Curious about 3 things with those that think the z/28 is too 'basic':

1) Those that want more amenities in a the Z/28: What are they? You can add back in A/C, if you want a better stereo you can go aftermarket. I can't see what else you really must have in a track car in terms of 'amenities'
2) What is wrong with the ZL1 for you? Isn't this the car you really want?
3) Do you actually intended to use the car at a closed circuit regularly? If you already do this, I would be very surprised to hear complaints about having more options
Id like them to come up with a way to have performance as well as amenities. If you were to add all the stuff GM removed to make it a street car, it would drastically effect performance.


Its the same argument I have with guys as far as the 13 Shelby. All Ford did was add a bigger supercharger, up the boost, max out the block, and add a cold air intake. Apply the same concept to the ZL1. A 427, replace the 1.9 with the same 2.3 found on the ZR1, up the boost from 8psi to 14, and add a cold air. Easily over 700 horses.
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Old 04-08-2013, 04:34 PM   #97
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Please review rebuttals in red. If you removed all the "marginal weight" statements, the total would be less than 10 pounds, which most drivers could probably find at the gym. Most of the "do not add weight" features have to do with the dash assembly, driver information center, or other integral parts of the car.

A few points did not get red text. I didn't respond to those because I can see removing those.

As for most of the other complaints, we're just feeding the troll by arguing.
The bigger reason for removing several of them has little to do with the weight potentially saved.


-power steering (variable assist electric)—necessary for cars these days, find me one without it - power assist, yes. Electrically powered, no.

-power brakes—necessary for reliability - necessary to meet pedal force requirements, not reliability

-power mirrors - they do tend to hold adjustment better than and not go all loose like mechanically adjustable mirrors

-ABS—necessary for reliability and safety - arguably given more credit than it deserves.

-keyless entry w/panic alarm—your key fob doesn't count into the car's weight - Huh??? Once you get in the car it does. But mostly it adds complexity without improving performance

-tilt steering—does not add weight - I'm sure it adds a little, but the loss of a little steering feel is the bigger factor here

-telescoping steering—does not add weight - . . . see ↑↑↑

-cruise control—does not add weight - an utterly ridiculous feature for a track car. Not even necessary for a DD or trip car assuming halfway decent throttle control skill. If anything, using CC will tend to dumb down your proficiency at this skill.

-12V power outlet—would be marginal weight reduction - but at least has value as a power source for a 12-v air compressor

-steering wheel mounted controls—not confirmed, would be marginal weight reduction - needless complexity that can become problematic over time.

-configurable lock/unlock and horn/light settings—does not add weight - more needless complexity

-automatic headlights—does not add weight - nobody who is legitimately entitled to hold a driver's license should ever need this sort of thing to be done for them. Same goes for daytime running lights.

-air conditioning (if you want it)—optional, and as such should not be on this list - this one is at least useful in defogging the windshield more rapidly than can be done not using it



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Old 04-08-2013, 04:39 PM   #98
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Whats to be blown away about it? This is exactly my point. The new z/28 isnt an engineering marvel aside from its breaking system. Chevy is gonna charge 60-70 probably even 80 grand on a concept thats been around for 50 years. All youd be doing is paying for some expensive breaks and z/28 badges.
Wrong, a 3rd or 4th gen Z28 is paying for the badging. They lessened the weight a little bit, added the LS7, the seats, and the brakes along with changing the fascias. They shouldve stripped a bit more in my opinion. Also those tires are hella expensive too. Its a pure track car that will be VERY competitive. I dont think GM needed to add those brake components to make it as competitve as it is. They couldve gone a cheaper route with it to be between the 1LE and ZL-1 but they wanted to make this car basically a race car that you "could" drive on the street. They wont charge 80. It'll prbably be 60k. I cant see paying as much as you can for say a vette which would be much lighter.
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Old 04-08-2013, 04:57 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Wizard1183 View Post
Wrong, a 3rd or 4th gen Z28 is paying for the badging. They lessened the weight a little bit, added the LS7, the seats, and the brakes along with changing the fascias. They shouldve stripped a bit more in my opinion. Also those tires are hella expensive too. Its a pure track car that will be VERY competitive. I dont think GM needed to add those brake components to make it as competitve as it is. They couldve gone a cheaper route with it to be between the 1LE and ZL-1 but they wanted to make this car basically a race car that you "could" drive on the street. They wont charge 80. It'll prbably be 60k. I cant see paying as much as you can for say a vette which would be much lighter.
True. I guess my point is the car may be "street legal", but not street friendly. I just cant see myself picking up a woman for a date in a car with one speaker, no spare tire or jack, etc then say I paid 60 Gs on it.
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Old 04-08-2013, 04:59 PM   #100
orthojoe
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikki Tikki Tavi View Post
True. I guess my point is the car may be "street legal", but not street friendly. I just cant see myself picking up a woman for a date in a car with one speaker, no spare tire or jack, etc then say I paid 60 Gs on it.
That's because that's not what the car was made for.
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