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Camaro Z/28 Forum - Z/28 Specific Topics Discussions related to the 5th gen Camaro Z/28 model

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Old 04-08-2013, 04:02 PM   #1
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Carbon Ceramic rotor on Z/28 : concern

The new Z/28 really has my attention. GM really has impressed me with making a car strictly for a small set of enthusiasts who enjoy tracking their cars on a regular basis. I am glad to see that GM thinks this is an important market segment because the sport has been growing in popularity over the past few years. They have the insight to know that there is something to making a car for this growing sport.

The only concern I have about the car currently is how heavy it is. 3800 pounds is lighter than a ZL1, but still considered VERY heavy for a track car. Traditionally, heavy cars are not as nimble, overheat, and are costly in terms of consumables. I can see how the car can still be engineered to be nimble, and how coolers and the right components can make it reliable in terms of heat management. However, I do want to bring up my concern on consumable cost with the carbon ceramic brakes:

Carbon ceramic brakes (CCB) are expensive. Why would they put these types of brakes on the Z/28? My guess is that CCB brakes are necessary for a car this heavy and this powerful to prevent brake fade. I doubt that standard steel brakes would be able to hold up lap after lap in a 3800+ pound car that makes 500HP. While CCB last longer than steel rotors, they still wear out. I have experience with CCB on a Porsche, and must say that they serve no purpose for track use. They only last a few days more than regular rotors during track use, you can't use aggressive track compound pads or else they will wear much sooner, and the cost to replace ($4k per rotor) is prohibitive to use in a track environment. Most Porsche guy that track their cars ditch the CCB rotors and put steels on. They can get away with this because those cars are lightweight cars (~3000 lb), and fade is not an issue. In a Z/28, this might not be an option if the car is too powerful/heavy for regular steel rotors. So the question now is: How much will it cost to replace these Z/28 CCB rotors, and how often will they need to be replaced? I wonder if this could be a potential achilles heel for the car.... Thoughts?
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Old 04-08-2013, 04:08 PM   #2
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I read somewhere GM stating that the CCB's will likely last the lifetime of the car.

also, Wilwood has CC rotors for the mustang (and i was told they are bringing them out for the camaro) and they are 1K each, not 4K. i doubt the brembos will be 4 times the cost of the wilwoods.
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Old 04-08-2013, 04:43 PM   #3
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I read somewhere GM stating that the CCB's will likely last the lifetime of the car.

also, Wilwood has CC rotors for the mustang (and i was told they are bringing them out for the camaro) and they are 1K each, not 4K. i doubt the brembos will be 4 times the cost of the wilwoods.
They'll last the lifetime of the car if you don't track it regularly. They'll wear out if they're tracked. Unfortunately I have personal experience with CCB at the track. 1k per rotor is certainly easier to swallow thank 4k. Good to know. Thanks!
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Old 04-08-2013, 05:32 PM   #4
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The rotors should easily last over 80k miles or 15-20k if you track it a lot. You can find the corvettes for 900-1200 each depending on where you look. I don't know where people are getting the crazy prices from.
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Old 04-08-2013, 06:50 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orthojoe View Post
The new Z/28 really has my attention. GM really has impressed me with making a car strictly for a small set of enthusiasts who enjoy tracking their cars on a regular basis. I am glad to see that GM thinks this is an important market segment because the sport has been growing in popularity over the past few years. They have the insight to know that there is something to making a car for this growing sport.

The only concern I have about the car currently is how heavy it is. 3800 pounds is lighter than a ZL1, but still considered VERY heavy for a track car. Traditionally, heavy cars are not as nimble, overheat, and are costly in terms of consumables. I can see how the car can still be engineered to be nimble, and how coolers and the right components can make it reliable in terms of heat management. However, I do want to bring up my concern on consumable cost with the carbon ceramic brakes:

Carbon ceramic brakes (CCB) are expensive. Why would they put these types of brakes on the Z/28? My guess is that CCB brakes are necessary for a car this heavy and this powerful to prevent brake fade. I doubt that standard steel brakes would be able to hold up lap after lap in a 3800+ pound car that makes 500HP. While CCB last longer than steel rotors, they still wear out. I have experience with CCB on a Porsche, and must say that they serve no purpose for track use. They only last a few days more than regular rotors during track use, you can't use aggressive track compound pads or else they will wear much sooner, and the cost to replace ($4k per rotor) is prohibitive to use in a track environment. Most Porsche guy that track their cars ditch the CCB rotors and put steels on. They can get away with this because those cars are lightweight cars (~3000 lb), and fade is not an issue. In a Z/28, this might not be an option if the car is too powerful/heavy for regular steel rotors. So the question now is: How much will it cost to replace these Z/28 CCB rotors, and how often will they need to be replaced? I wonder if this could be a potential achilles heel for the car.... Thoughts?
Just an FYI - rotors are iron, not steel.

CCB rotors run about a grand each.
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Old 04-08-2013, 07:05 PM   #6
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The rotors should easily last over 80k miles or 15-20k if you track it a lot. You can find the corvettes for 900-1200 each depending on where you look. I don't know where people are getting the crazy prices from.
~$1k per rotor is more palatable, particularly if they can last 15-20k with a lot of tracking. Good to know. Thanks!

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Just an FYI - rotors are iron, not steel.

CCB rotors run about a grand each.
Thanks!
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Old 04-08-2013, 07:23 PM   #7
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...it's a very durable material..only detraction is they are very brittle, and will crack it banged upon.
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Old 07-07-2013, 01:04 PM   #8
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The ZL1 metal rotors seem to wear fairly quick and are about $500 each. So I wonder if the carbon rotors is a good replacement option on the ZL1?
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Old 07-07-2013, 02:32 PM   #9
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I think the best place to ask on how well the CCB hold up on a track would be the C6 Z06 forums http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c6-z06-discussion-100/ and this part of the forum for steel brakes hope this help in your search http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71401
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Old 07-07-2013, 03:57 PM   #10
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good thread!...I have the same concern. I believe the ccb dissipates heat better and will not fade under the most rigorous applications...ie endurance racing. The typical track day session for me is 20-30 minutes. I would switch to steel, run super600, aggressive pads and see where that takes me for the @6hr track weekends. I really can't afford buying new ccbs often.
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Old 07-07-2013, 08:10 PM   #11
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The brakes save a lot of weight, unsprung too. Camaro brakes are already huge and if u ever picked a rotor up you realize how heavy they are. Now imagine trying to go larger for more output? CCM gives u a lighter, larger rotor and yes, they can handle the heat better.

Honestly, if u are willing to drop z/28 money, 1-2k per rotor is not bad considering ZL1 rotors are $500 and the CCMs might now last longer then equal iron rotors but u will eat ZL1 rotors with thise trofeo tires, plus you will most likely fade.

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Old 07-15-2013, 06:27 PM   #12
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for GM factory ZR1 rotors they are $2408.72 each....times 4 = $9634.88 total.pads are $906.00 for the front and $672.00 for the rear.

I would highly doubt that the Z/28 rotors and pads are going to be much cheaper.

as for a carbon ceramic matrix rotors and pads serve no purpose on the track,that is completely wrong.this setup works by heat.the more,usually,the better.if you can't get them to work on the track,then you aren't driving hard enough.another way of looking at it is,every team in formula 1 uses cabon/carbon setups for a reason....they flat out work( in the dry) the best for what the rules state.

MotoGP uses them as well,but will switch them out in bad weather,because you can't keep heat in them in the rain.thier use in other series would be more wide spread if the cost came down.
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Old 07-17-2013, 12:42 PM   #13
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for GM factory ZR1 rotors they are $2408.72 each....times 4 = $9634.88 total.pads are $906.00 for the front and $672.00 for the rear.

I would highly doubt that the Z/28 rotors and pads are going to be much cheaper.

as for a carbon ceramic matrix rotors and pads serve no purpose on the track,that is completely wrong.this setup works by heat.the more,usually,the better.if you can't get them to work on the track,then you aren't driving hard enough.another way of looking at it is,every team in formula 1 uses cabon/carbon setups for a reason....they flat out work( in the dry) the best for what the rules state.

MotoGP uses them as well,but will switch them out in bad weather,because you can't keep heat in them in the rain.thier use in other series would be more wide spread if the cost came down.
Are your prices from a local dealer? Online parts sites charge much, MUCH less than dealer.

zr1 front rotor PN 25843121
zr1 rear rotor PN 25843128

'GM parts direct' price $1222.34 ea

And I wouldn't doubt that you could find them for even cheaper than that.
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Old 07-26-2013, 03:45 PM   #14
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The Z28 rotors will not be a direct fit on the Zl1 due to size difference. The Z28 rotors are 15.5 in dia front and 15.3 in dia rear. The Zl1 rotors are 14.6 in dia front and 14.4 in dia rear.
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Old 07-26-2013, 03:53 PM   #15
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The Z28 rotors will not be a direct fit on the Zl1 due to size difference. The Z28 rotors are 15.5 in dia front and 15.3 in dia rear. The Zl1 rotors are 14.6 in dia front and 14.4 in dia rear.

The Z28 is running 18 or 19 inch wheels and the ZL1 is running 20 so diameter wise I think they would fit. People have even run as small as 17" wheels on the ZL1.
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Old 07-26-2013, 08:10 PM   #16
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The new Z/28 has square 19" wheels, and the CC brakes will wear like iron.
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Old 07-27-2013, 11:20 AM   #17
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The Z28 is running 18 or 19 inch wheels and the ZL1 is running 20 so diameter wise I think they would fit. People have even run as small as 17" wheels on the ZL1.
You are exactly correct they will fit on the spindle/ hub, but the caliper brackets will have to be changed also for spacing. Which will require more than just the cc rotors alone.
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Old 07-29-2013, 05:15 PM   #18
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I am in the process of putting CTS v generation 2 brakes on my gto. Amazon is killing every body's prices right now as is tire rack. 14" stop tech rotors front
And rear were only $600.
I see prices of BBK kits coming down a bunch.

But don't really see the need for CCB brakes on the Z/28. The ZL1 brakes are plenty.
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Old 07-29-2013, 05:19 PM   #19
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Old 07-30-2013, 09:54 AM   #20
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But don't really see the need for CCB brakes on the Z/28. The ZL1 brakes are plenty.
Do we know this for sure? 3800 pound car, multiple laps and sessions at a brake intensive track like Laguna Seca? The ZL1 brakes may fine for the first couple of laps, but what about more than that? What happens when you move up to R comp tires like the Z/28 comes equipped with? ZL1 brakes might not be up to the task, which is why the CCB brakes were used on the z/28.
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Old 07-30-2013, 12:59 PM   #21
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Do we know this for sure? 3800 pound car, multiple laps and sessions at a brake intensive track like Laguna Seca? The ZL1 brakes may fine for the first couple of laps, but what about more than that? What happens when you move up to R comp tires like the Z/28 comes equipped with? ZL1 brakes might not be up to the task, which is why the CCB brakes were used on the z/28.
You are underestimating the capabilities of the ZL1..
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Old 07-30-2013, 11:58 PM   #22
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You are underestimating the capabilities of the ZL1..
I could be. Do you have personal experience that would convince me? I'd like to know lap times that you run, which track, what kind of tires, how long, and what ambient temps were.

The brakes may very well be capable. I'm a bit skeptical based on the amount of power the zl1 makes and how heavy it is. If the brakes are capable, then indeed the CCB brakes on a Z/28 are not necessary.

Some track setups are easy on brakes and you might be able to get away without overheat. Others are brutal and will have you pitting in after 10 minutes.
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Old 07-31-2013, 02:05 PM   #23
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Pad changes and air ducts and the ZL1 brakes would work great. Possibly a rotor change too for a better metal. Stock I very much agree they'd crap out too on brake heavy courses. Eventually I'd like to change out the pistons to the racing brake set to further reduce heat transfer to the caliper/fluid. But realistically I am now biding my time to hopefully upgrade to the ceramics as well.

The benefit of the carbon is having good heat resistant brakes PLUS their incredibly light weight for a more responsive suspension. But I'd still add ducts to them.
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Old 07-31-2013, 02:15 PM   #24
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Are your prices from a local dealer? Online parts sites charge much, MUCH less than dealer.

zr1 front rotor PN 25843121
zr1 rear rotor PN 25843128

'GM parts direct' price $1222.34 ea

And I wouldn't doubt that you could find them for even cheaper than that.
New part numbers. Although the prices seem to have gone up a couple of dollars.

Front: 22805790
Rear : 22805791

Set of 4 to the door will be $6191.38 or $1547.85 total each rotor as of today. I'd bet probably 7500 you can get rotors and brakes for the ZR1, probably just a bit cheaper for the Z/28. Maybe.
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Old 07-31-2013, 02:32 PM   #25
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Or 1k with free shipping each, LOL. Found this in 10 seconds, might be able to find even cheaper with some real homework and not a 10 second google challenge.
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007QBK0QU

Although the Z will cost more, just not sure how much. Hell, get me the hub offset for the center hats and I'll have a machinist build me a set if GM gets stupid with pricing.
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