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Camaro Z/28 Forum - Z/28 Specific Topics Discussions related to the 5th gen Camaro Z/28 model

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Old 04-23-2013, 04:33 PM   #251
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One dollar to 350K more than the ZL-1, that is...lol..
true. Though they may surprise us. Im stickin to my guns lol
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Old 04-23-2013, 05:02 PM   #252
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Hopefully, I hope it is hard for Ford and Dodge to touch or compete with it. I mean, I may not be on the wagon for the new Z, but I am a Camaro lover...I've owned 3 of them.
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Old 04-23-2013, 05:22 PM   #253
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Say maybe 6k from GM to build an LS7 crate. And even then i doubt it costs that much because how much more different is the LS7 to the LS3? (talking about building - all have 8 pistons, 8 rods, a crank, a block etc).

With that I would think a LS7 can be built for about $4500!
LS3 has powered metal rods that cost very little to manufacture compared to the TITANIUM con-rods found in an LS7.

Example: http://www.crower.com/connecting-rods/titanium.html

You can buy 8 SBC rods for LESS than ONE titanium rod...

Compared to: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164272

Now I'm sure GM doesn't quite pay $600+ per rod...but they don't get 'em FREE either.

Your task, should you accept, is to call your local Chev dealer and ask them the cost for EACH rod, LS3 AND LS7...and while you've got them on the phone, ask them how much each respective complete cylinder head and block sells for, and the dry-sump system for the LS7...then go back and rejig your assumptions regarding LS7 engine co$t$...

Please refer to the Sam Foose quote, below.
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Old 04-24-2013, 07:04 AM   #254
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^....LOL, and may I ad in the absence of facts, it's always popular to theorize, hypothesize, postulate and make conjectures out of one's hat just for the sake of passing time it seems...., I for one can not wait much longer for facts, figures, and pricing to come out for the Z/28. That will thin out the herd significantly.
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Old 04-24-2013, 10:01 AM   #255
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Here's some filler in the meantime...Will the Z/28 have Hill Start Assist?...lol...

(Might be a pricing factor, and someone's first manual transmission!...lol)

Back up camera?

Rev limiter?

Last edited by 90503; 04-24-2013 at 10:13 AM.
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Old 04-24-2013, 12:44 PM   #256
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LS3 has powered metal rods that cost very little to manufacture compared to the TITANIUM con-rods found in an LS7.

Example: http://www.crower.com/connecting-rods/titanium.html

You can buy 8 SBC rods for LESS than ONE titanium rod...

Compared to: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164272

Now I'm sure GM doesn't quite pay $600+ per rod...but they don't get 'em FREE either.

Your task, should you accept, is to call your local Chev dealer and ask them the cost for EACH rod, LS3 AND LS7...and while you've got them on the phone, ask them how much each respective complete cylinder head and block sells for, and the dry-sump system for the LS7...then go back and rejig your assumptions regarding LS7 engine co$t$...

Please refer to the Sam Foose quote, below.
I have been asked to play nice so I will try that approach.

First off - i have stated it is tough to use retail prices to try and figure out GM's cost. But that is by far the easiest $$ number to get ahold of so we just make estimated guesses off of that.

So you highlight my 4500 yet miss the part where i had the 6000 for my cost to GM. I am also talking strictly about the engine. I view the dry sump as an accessory (and also you had to buy it extra or convert to wet sump when buying a crate LS7) so I left it off. But yes you are right in that it will cost extra but to GM it does not cost $3000.

Now blocks and heads on LS7 and LS well LSX - aluminum. So they all start out the same then cast and machined to their correct sizes.

So I will ask again - how much different are the LS3 and LS7 engines? After forming the blocks and heads, they go on to different machining and finishing to get the final product but out side of some parts (like titanium valves and rods) what really is the difference?

The LS7 came out in 2006. While it has some premium stuff on it it is not that much different than any other LS in design. And this is my point. They have sold what 20,000 or more of these engines? I have seen quotes on here from Lutz stating anything over the basic LS is a nice profit for GM. And i have also seen the ZL1 statement that "its still a chevy"

Agree to disagree here.
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Old 04-24-2013, 01:44 PM   #257
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Quote:
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LS3 has powered metal rods that cost very little to manufacture compared to the TITANIUM con-rods found in an LS7.

Example: http://www.crower.com/connecting-rods/titanium.html

You can buy 8 SBC rods for LESS than ONE titanium rod...

Compared to: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164272

Now I'm sure GM doesn't quite pay $600+ per rod...but they don't get 'em FREE either.

Your task, should you accept, is to call your local Chev dealer and ask them the cost for EACH rod, LS3 AND LS7...and while you've got them on the phone, ask them how much each respective complete cylinder head and block sells for, and the dry-sump system for the LS7...then go back and rejig your assumptions regarding LS7 engine co$t$...

Please refer to the Sam Foose quote, below.
Some yrs back maybe 2 yrs ago? I heard of Titanium C-rods costing $1000 a piece? Pace Performance lists them for $404 a rod and this is GMPP. GM probably gets them at $200 a rod. The dry sump system is about $1000 if I'm not mistaken. The configuration in the car may cost but GM already got this done on the Z/28 so its just a matter of "dropping it in" basically. Its not like they had to work night and day to put this engine in the camaro when performance guys had it in the car the minute they got their hands on one. I used premium pricing for everything which accounts for $50k for handbuilt? In actuality, its probably closer to $45k handbuilt if not cheaper. I realize they WONT do this, but its not like they COULDNT. They just needed to reconfigure their mpg for other vehicles to counter the CAFE standards. Even when the 6th gen comes out, they should be above enough to install a high output V8 in it as an option. I still dont know if using it as an optioned engine, meaning not everyone would grab it it if was priced above, that it would alter CAFE.
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Old 04-24-2013, 02:35 PM   #258
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Agree to disagree here.
To have a useful, productive discussion about anything, it certainly helps to share data with some "basis in fact". Otherwise, the level of discussion devolves...

You either BOTH share data that makes sense...or you have data that is non-sense-ical (I miss-spell and hyphenate for effect).

Factually, there are precious few parts that are shared between the 20,000 or so LS7s produced so far, and the greatly more-common LS3. And most of the differences are in favor of premium specs enjoyed by the LS7. Read: better and more expensive alloys, more machining (LS7 heads are totally cnc'd, for instance), better processes...and approximately 3 man-hours' hand-assembly/testing per LS7 (I've been through the PBC in Wixom and witnessed it firsthand, start to finish). LS3s are assembly-line-constructed. Without a GRAM of titanium present. Let alone the many other uniquenesses the LS7s bear. Where else do you find an engine with 13% greater displacement that ALSO has a greater redline? That can ONLY happen when superior alloys AND components AND more precise manufacturing AND machining AND assembly practices are utilized.

NONE of those added attributes are FREE...even to GM.

Volume (or lack thereof) and process play a significant part in the eventual "cost" of every item manufactured. Along with individual piece-cost of each component used. The lower the volume, the greater the REAL co$t$ are...FACT.

NOW (forget the "actual" cost of the engines), in this modern highly-regulated world GM finds themselves manufacturing within, when you offer a NEW engine to an existing vehicle, you have to run that vehicle through all manner of tests to satisfy certain certification and validation mandates and criteria. Hours...and hours...and HOURS of expensive engineering time is spent. Did I say HOURS?! Days, weeks, months-worth. And ALL those folks, of course, are independently wealthy and work for NOTHING, right.

Marketing costs. Warranty costs. Overhead. Manufacturing...

And, since YOU brought it up earlier, and none of us want to ever experience what GM did in '09 (b/k), GM also needs to add something called ROI. Hopefully to everything. Even an LS7'd Gen-5 Camaro, regardless of Model Name.

Oh, and they have about 16 months-worth of production capacity before the Gen-5 slips into the mists of time. 16 months doesn't allow much capacity to spread those "(CO$T$ + ROI) / UNITS = PRICE" over.

An interesting, and somewhat related, FACT is the "Anniversary" ZL1 427 Big Block that GMPP recreated (all 427 of them) lists for about $25,000 (!!!)...which happens to be about the same price as a complete ZL1 engine sold for in 1969 X CPI increase. Low volume then, low volume now...but still 'spensive!

Agreed?
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Old 04-24-2013, 02:43 PM   #259
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As expensive as the LS7 is now, however you look at it, I don't think they will "ramp up production", or worry about how to make it cheaper and affordable...

The LS7 and all the Gen IV engines are heading into the sunset...Not much reason for GM to plan for long-range cost-reductions on how to produce them less expensively...
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Old 04-24-2013, 02:51 PM   #260
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yup all those rare pieces like hypereutectic pistons


You missed the point.....again. Engine construction costs was what I was referring to. Maybe you missed that when i purposely (twice) left off the dry sump feature we both know is going to be on the Z/28.

I thank you for the accounting lesson (you must be one?) but that went well beyond what I was talking about.

Aluminum heads and block - same as LS3 and LS7. Sure there are differences and more machining on the 7 but the cost to GM is not that great either.

You are making this sound like GM spends twice the $$$ to build a LS7 over the LS3 and that just doesn't add up.
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Old 04-24-2013, 02:56 PM   #261
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25k buys you a lot of engine - single/twin turbo/supercharged bbc/sbc making 1000-1500+hp. Or 18/15* headed N/A motors etc. All would need a really well built car to handle.

To have that 427 - you are either mad at your money or not really interested in going fast.

Not my cup of tea - sorry
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Old 04-24-2013, 02:58 PM   #262
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yup all those rare pieces like hypereutectic pistons

There's one very significant reason why LS7s were built with "hyper-craptastic" pistons...and it obviously has nothing to do with cost... What is the thermal limitation of that design? NOT "boost-friendly", which the thinner-cylinder-walled LS7 block was NOT intended to "encourage"...

You are making this sound like GM spends twice the $$$ to build a LS7 over the LS3 and that just doesn't add up.
...because your solar calc has been locked in your dark desk drawer a lil toooo long...
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Old 04-24-2013, 03:05 PM   #263
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swing and a miss strike three
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Old 04-24-2013, 03:12 PM   #264
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Boris, if the LS3 and LS7 share so much commonality, how come so few Part #'s are shared?

And if the LS7 was such a hot-ticket engine for high-boost applications, why wasn't the LS9 a 427?? How do you "discourage" that? Hypereutectic pistons...

BTW, all those trick combos you name as more worthy than the "ZL1 427": What's THEIR warranty?
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Old 04-24-2013, 05:46 PM   #265
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^, let it go bro, no sense trying to argue with nonsense...will the last one left please turn the lights off......
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Old 04-24-2013, 05:53 PM   #266
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I know the only diff in the blocks is the bolting for the exhaust which is 0125?" So technically you probably could turn an ls3 into an ls7 if properly bored and using internals if that's possible. I dunno?
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Old 04-24-2013, 06:05 PM   #267
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Old 04-24-2013, 09:09 PM   #268
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Boris, if the LS3 and LS7 share so much commonality, how come so few Part #'s are shared?
Have you even seen an block being made? Not talking a finished block with a hone going through it but actually cast?

Then they are machined and the programs have already been engineered so it is a matter of making the raw head/block finished for assembly.

At this point we have reached what would be the two most expensive pieces of the engine. And to my original point - is the cost that much different?
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And if the LS7 was such a hot-ticket engine for high-boost applications, why wasn't the LS9 a 427?? How do you "discourage" that? Hypereutectic pistons...

BTW, all those trick combos you name as more worthy than the "ZL1 427": What's THEIR warranty?
Now this part you totally pulled out of your ass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boris632
25k buys you a lot of engine - single/twin turbo/supercharged bbc/sbc making 1000-1500+hp. Or 18/15* headed N/A motors etc. All would need a really well built car to handle.

To have that 427 - you are either mad at your money or not really interested in going fast.

Not my cup of tea - sorry
I highlighted it in case you missed it. BBC = Big Block Chevy and SBC = Small Block Chevy. Neither are an LS7 that you somehow implied I said was great for boosting.

The LS7 is the worst engine you an add FI to. But once again you are twisting my words just to be an ass.

As for the trick engines it depends on use and builder. I have seen up to 3 years for street car engines.

Not cheap but not 25k either.

As for your ROI - don't you think the LS7 makes a pretty good ROI? This is what I am getting at. If the engine made the same or less than the LS3 in terms of margin - they wouldn't make it. No way would they want to deal with the CAFE crap.

And finally (as Im done with this thread after this post) this car exists to fill the high end void the Z06/ZR1 filled. Those cars were huge profit centers that are no more. At least for now. So why not make a top of the line Camaro to appease the fans and still generate those big dollar sales?

It is this reasoning that I believe that things like the engine and the brake system are very sweet - but not that expensive to GM.

So yes they will turn a nice profit on this car. And it probably will be 70k from a dealer. But that doesn't mean they couldn't have built and sold it for 50k.

Have fun
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Old 04-24-2013, 09:12 PM   #269
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That's a bargain.

Not too be mean, but what are you smoking...WAY to high for most customers...
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Old 04-24-2013, 09:15 PM   #270
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I dunno Boris...Every mod that adds truly adds horsepower (just look at the aftermarket stuff) is gonna be expensive...

Even if it costs them the same as any other engine to build, the horsepower and image alone will command a higher price....If you don't pay it, you won't have it...could be the most expensive "factor" in it....Higher cost to build, which I'm sure it is, will have a higher mark-up in and of itself in all areas...
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Old 04-24-2013, 09:16 PM   #271
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Not too be mean, but what are you smoking...WAY to high for most customers...
But consider it's not meant for "most" customers....if they sell 1000 I'd be surprised.

For the equipment you get on the car - I tend to agree it's a bargain.
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Old 04-24-2013, 11:17 PM   #272
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But consider it's not meant for "most" customers....if they sell 1000 I'd be surprised.

For the equipment you get on the car - I tend to agree it's a bargain.
This is correct. It will be less than 1,000 units built. 398 less...

Try 602 Z/28 units built for 2014, if you understand the significance of that number. Same reasoning behind why GM built 69 units of the 2012 COPO Camaro.
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Old 04-25-2013, 12:23 AM   #273
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Old 04-25-2013, 12:29 AM   #274
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Old 04-25-2013, 06:46 AM   #275
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