Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com
 
River City Camaro Customs
Go Back   Camaro5 Chevy Camaro Forum / Camaro ZL1, SS and V6 Forums - Camaro5.com > General Camaro Forums > Camaro Z/28 Forum - Z/28 Specific Topics


Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-23-2013, 08:13 AM   #205
silverds
2015 SS 6M
 
silverds's Avatar
 
Drives: 2015 SS 6M
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 561
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizard1183 View Post
This! Which equates to a VERY expensive toy. As I said before. Rarity and nastalgia. Thats what youre paying for UNLESS you're purely a camaro enthusiast. Then youre getting a REAL Z/28 Forget the high end parts ect. Im sure no more than 5% of those sold will ever see the track. Drag strip? Probably more so.

There's a sucker born every minute. Ill wait for him to buy it then sell it to me for a cheaper used price that's much more accommodating.
I tend to agree with you on this. Shortly after ZL1 production hit it's stride in 2013, there seemed to be used ZL1s popping up for sale everywhere. Some with up to 6000 miles but many were not even out of their break-in period.

The higher mileage ones could be presumed to be impulse purchases where the original buyer sold his mother-in-law to get in one, or fell under some hardship and found themselves having to sell or trade it in for a more reasonable, budget friendly conveyance.

Many of the low mileage ones were likely purchased as a "collectible" or "investment". As soon as reality set in about the collectibility or investment value, ZL1 collectors were dropping like flies.

I think the same will happen here, once the initial hype of collectibility and investment value wear off, Z/28s will become available on the used market in "Cherry" condition for well below MSRP.
__________________
silverds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 09:38 AM   #206
Wizard1183

 
Wizard1183's Avatar
 
Drives: ABM SS2/RS M6
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Lafayette,LA
Posts: 1,447
Send a message via Yahoo to Wizard1183
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2SSRSinBama View Post
its going to be high, a ZL1 is mid $50ks almost everywhere... this is an even more exclusive Camaro, with a ton of R&D that you are going to be the one paying for, that has a hand built engine, etc... just a crate LS7 is almost $15k, that option alone on a stand SS would have it at almost $50k... I'm saying around $70k starting out
No, not a crate LS7 at $50k on an SS. You're adding the LS7 to the price of a 2SS correct? ( giving an MSRP of $34,995? For a 2SS) but what you failed to do was subtract the $7000 using a GM premium for that LS3. Youre not getting both engines. Remember that. Now we'll use your $15000 premium for the LS7 as no one NEEDS a hand built one nor asked for it to be hand built. Plus $1000 for the wiring harness and you're looking at $43.995 dropped in as you don't NEED R&D for this. Reason being the SS drive train, suspension ect can handle up to 650 HP supposedly. Lets drop it down to 600HP for safety. LS7 only produces 505 right? We're more than safe. Now add in hand built LS7 and you're correct. $50000. Still not a bad price for that.

I agree on your price of a Z tho. I say $70k out the door but it may be upwards of that.
__________________


Life is short, drive it like you stole it!
Wizard1183 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 09:52 AM   #207
BowtieBelle
They see me trollin'...
 
BowtieBelle's Avatar
 
Drives: 217 ci of fury; Chauffeured by SS
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 13,889
When Scott said that it would be more expensive than the ZL1, I died a little inside. I expect $70k out the door.

Z/28s have always been affordable and I think this is a huge mistake, but it's just me. Yes, I get the brakes and the gears and the LS7 are incredible. But I'd rather pay $55k for a car with creature comforts which still performs like an absolute beast. That three seconds just isn't enough of a difference for me to justify such a hefty price tag for a stripped-down Camaro. I'm afraid they've priced themselves out of the market and no one will buy the Z, and that such a failure may make them decide to eliminate it for good. Long shot, I know, but a concern.

The 1LE now seems to be what the Z/28 has always been, at least IMO. A great balance of street and track, affordable and able to be optioned up.

I was planning on a 50th anniversary Z/28 in 2017, but if they continue this pricing through the 6th gen, I'll be getting a 50th anniversary SS/1LE.
__________________
"Never race anything you can't afford to light on fire and push off a cliff." -CamaroSpike

2011 Custom LT/RS: Bella's Build Thread
BowtieBelle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 10:05 AM   #208
Wizard1183

 
Wizard1183's Avatar
 
Drives: ABM SS2/RS M6
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Lafayette,LA
Posts: 1,447
Send a message via Yahoo to Wizard1183
Quote:
Originally Posted by BowtieBelle View Post
When Scott said that it would be more expensive than the ZL1, I died a little inside. I expect $70k out the door.

Z/28s have always been affordable and I think this is a huge mistake, but it's just me. Yes, I get the brakes and the gears and the LS7 are incredible. But I'd rather pay $55k for a car with creature comforts which still performs like an absolute beast. That three seconds just isn't enough of a difference for me to justify such a hefty price tag for a stripped-down Camaro. I'm afraid they've priced themselves out of the market and no one will buy the Z, and that such a failure may make them decide to eliminate it for good. Long shot, I know, but a concern.

The 1LE now seems to be what the Z/28 has always been.

I was planning on a 50th anniversary Z/28 in 2017, but if they continue this pricing through the 6th gen, I'll be getting a 50th anniversary SS/1LE.
As I mentioned, a sucker born every minute and everyone they build will sell. And then some will be up for sale pretty quick, some up for sale 2-5 yrs afterwards for a much better price. As for your 6th gen? The Z/28 will run into that production and it won't be near the cost of this one I wouldn't think. It just might replace the SS as the 2nd gen did, not to mention that the SS has been taken to the 4dr to compete with the charger. So there's a lot of questions that are in the air. The chevelle is recently been trademarked which leads me to believe they'll stop production on the camaro and introduce a chevelle at some point. Isnt that what dodge is doing from challenger to barricuda? I'm speculating of course but with all these moves going, on something's happening and changing. The 5th gen was Chevys pride & joy for capitalization. They've done a wonderful job with it. We'll see what happens in a cpl yrs.
__________________


Life is short, drive it like you stole it!
Wizard1183 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 11:04 AM   #209
Boris632
 
Drives: 1955 210
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Rockford
Posts: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizard1183 View Post
No, not a crate LS7 at $50k on an SS. You're adding the LS7 to the price of a 2SS correct? ( giving an MSRP of $34,995? For a 2SS) but what you failed to do was subtract the $7000 using a GM premium for that LS3. Youre not getting both engines. Remember that. Now we'll use your $15000 premium for the LS7 as no one NEEDS a hand built one nor asked for it to be hand built. Plus $1000 for the wiring harness and you're looking at $43.995 dropped in as you don't NEED R&D for this. Reason being the SS drive train, suspension ect can handle up to 650 HP supposedly. Lets drop it down to 600HP for safety. LS7 only produces 505 right? We're more than safe. Now add in hand built LS7 and you're correct. $50000. Still not a bad price for that.

I agree on your price of a Z tho. I say $70k out the door but it may be upwards of that.

Can't really use retail pricing to determine retail cost in a car. I mean a trip to your favorite auto parts store will tell you that. Take a part any new car and try and replace all parts - a 30k car will probably set you back 100k or so.

The LS7 retails anywhere from 12k-19k. Even places like Jegs/Summit have them as special order so the middleman price is say 10k. It sure as hell does not cost GM 10k to make any engine that is mass produced.

Say maybe 6k from GM to build an LS7 crate. And even then i doubt it costs that much because how much more different is the LS7 to the LS3? (talking about building - all have 8 pistons, 8 rods, a crank, a block etc).

With that I would think a LS7 can be built for about $4500!



But there is also a gap left from no performance Corvettes and GM is looking to fill that void as well.

To me the Z/28 will be a huge profit center. They will try and target the hardcore Vette guys as well and that easily places this car in the 60-70k range. But this car would still be profitable at the 50k range imo.

The new design was spread out over all Camaros. LS7 development has already happened so it should be small tuning etc. Brake system once again done on the Vette. Coolers for brakes, rear end etc is race car stuff and probably borrowed from the GM teams.

Even testing on the car - how much info came from the ZL1 to steer this car in the direction it did.

Finally it was not built to a class. The COPO was built for certain classes and is a hell of a deal even at 86k. (try and build a stocker and get back to me). This car not being a class car means GM was just trying to fire off one last shot at Ford (and the world) saying "this is not even our fastest car - what do you have?" (implying the C7 Z cars will be monsters)

Z/28 is a very cool car - but they did piss off some fans. Can't please everyone right?
Boris632 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 11:42 AM   #210
Doc
Dances With Mustangs
 
Doc's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 1SS/RS MT
Join Date: May 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 3,606
They may have "pissed off" those who just want to drive around in a status symbol but real racers can't wait to get their hands on this thing. I think it's going to sell out quickly and you WON'T see a glut of them appearing on the used car market a few months after. I think we're witnessing the birth of a new legend.
__________________

Blue Angel is here!!
1SS/RS LS3 M6 IBM
Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 12:12 PM   #211
silverds
2015 SS 6M
 
silverds's Avatar
 
Drives: 2015 SS 6M
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 561
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc View Post
They may have "pissed off" those who just want to drive around in a status symbol but real racers can't wait to get their hands on this thing. I think it's going to sell out quickly and you WON'T see a glut of them appearing on the used car market a few months after. I think we're witnessing the birth of a new legend.
I don't know for certain what makes someone a "Real "Racer but it seems to me that asserting one's own "realness" in any occupation or hobby makes one less credible and presumably delusional.

I've never heard anyone imply they are "real" Doctor or a "real" Astronaut. I've never heard anyone describe themselves as a "real" Police Officer or a "real" pilot.

I'm not sure I've ever head anyone describe themselves as a "real" golfer or a "real" musician either; At least not anyone who was credible in that venture.

The Z/28 will be sold to "real" customers. That means anyone with the ability to sign their name on the sales contract. What happens to the car after that is anyones guess.

__________________
silverds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 12:46 PM   #212
90503


 
Drives: 2011 2SS/RS LS3
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Torrance
Posts: 11,471
Until I see the Camaro pictured above in person, I'm gonna hold off on deciding whether or not I like how it looks...Just can't tell from a picture alone....Same holds true for the Z/28...lol
90503 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 12:59 PM   #213
Wizard1183

 
Wizard1183's Avatar
 
Drives: ABM SS2/RS M6
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Lafayette,LA
Posts: 1,447
Send a message via Yahoo to Wizard1183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc View Post
They may have "pissed off" those who just want to drive around in a status symbol but real racers can't wait to get their hands on this thing. I think it's going to sell out quickly and you WON'T see a glut of them appearing on the used car market a few months after. I think we're witnessing the birth of a new legend.
Here's my question. All these die hard original Z/28 fans that grew knowing what a real Z was/is;when they've died off, you could call it baby boomers as well whatever.. You think this car will still carry its "legendary" status? If you think for one second that these cars will be collectible in the future that "may be" delusional. Notice how many products the baby boomers made hugely collectible and now their prices are beginning to fall like the 1959 les paul, base ball cards, comic books, muscle cars and yea they've dropped in price. Ppl who own them are holding onto to them in hopes the market corrects itself and continues into the stratosphere. That 1970 chevelle SS LS6 #s matching won't be worth the $120k in 20 yrs as it is today. Prices will fall as collectibles are fixated on the now and not tomorrow. Look at society and tell me ppl dont want shit yesterday and could careless about waiting 30-40yrs. Instant gratification rules the U.S. and it won't stop. If its a popular product today doesn't mean it'll be popular tomorrow. iPhone is a prime example. Legend? Maybe now but don't count on it holding water in a decade plus.
__________________


Life is short, drive it like you stole it!
Wizard1183 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 01:14 PM   #214
Bomino
 
Bomino's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 2ss/rs
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Nurburgring
Posts: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizard1183 View Post
Here's my question. All these die hard original Z/28 fans that grew knowing what a real Z was/is;when they've died off, you could call it baby boomers as well whatever.. You think this car will still carry its "legendary" status? If you think for one second that these cars will be collectible in the future that "may be" delusional. Notice how many products the baby boomers made hugely collectible and now their prices are beginning to fall like the 1959 les paul, base ball cards, comic books, muscle cars and yea they've dropped in price. Ppl who own them are holding onto to them in hopes the market corrects itself and continues into the stratosphere. That 1970 chevelle SS LS6 #s matching won't be worth the $120k in 20 yrs as it is today. Prices will fall as collectibles are fixated on the now and not tomorrow. Look at society and tell me ppl dont want shit yesterday and could careless about waiting 30-40yrs. Instant gratification rules the U.S. and it won't stop. If its a popular product today doesn't mean it'll be popular tomorrow. iPhone is a prime example. Legend? Maybe now but don't count on it holding water in a decade plus.
Of course. legends are passed down.

I wasn't even a thought in 1969, but i'd like to say i am well aware of the Camaro's legendary heritage. I'll tell my Kids, and if they are enthusiasts as i am, they will tell there's and so on. that is how legends are passed down.

On top of that, GM intelligently uses the z/28's heritage to market the car. this will help others understand the history behind these cars as well.
__________________
Bomino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 01:16 PM   #215
Doc
Dances With Mustangs
 
Doc's Avatar
 
Drives: 2010 1SS/RS MT
Join Date: May 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 3,606
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverds View Post
I don't know for certain what makes someone a "Real "Racer but it seems to me that asserting one's own "realness" in any occupation or hobby makes one less credible and presumably delusional.

I've never heard anyone imply they are "real" Doctor or a "real" Astronaut. I've never heard anyone describe themselves as a "real" Police Officer or a "real" pilot.

I'm not sure I've ever head anyone describe themselves as a "real" golfer or a "real" musician either; At least not anyone who was credible in that venture.

The Z/28 will be sold to "real" customers. That means anyone with the ability to sign their name on the sales contract. What happens to the car after that is anyones guess.

Let me help you out so you'll "know for certain".

A "real" racer is someone who takes their car out on a track and races it or drives for a team that races cars.

A "status symbol" driver is someone who's never been on a track and isn't going to drive on a racetrack, but they want to appear as though they do by driving around in a car that appears to be a "real" race car.

A "real" racer understands the value and cost of racing and generally doesn't complain about the price.

A "status symbol" driver is VERY price conscious and just wants the appearance without the cost.

Do you see a lot of people walking around dressed as doctors, wearing astronaut suits, dressed as police officers, dressed as pilots, dressed as golfers, carrying a music instrument like they're a musician who aren't any of those things? No? Exactly, so if using those as examples is how far you have to go to try and "make your point" then you don't have a point to make to begin with. "Less credible and presumably delusional" is more fitting to what you posted up which had absolutely nothing to do with auto racing.
__________________

Blue Angel is here!!
1SS/RS LS3 M6 IBM
Doc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 01:18 PM   #216
Bomino
 
Bomino's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 2ss/rs
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Nurburgring
Posts: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc View Post
Do you see a lot of people walking around dressed as doctors, wearing astronaut suits, dressed as police officers, dressed as pilots, dressed as golfers, carrying a music instrument like they're a musician who aren't any of those things? No? Exactly, so if using those as examples is how far you have to go to try and "make your point" then you don't have a point to make to begin with. "Less credible and presumably delusional" is more fitting to what you posted up which had absolutely nothing to do with auto racing.
__________________
Bomino is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 01:27 PM   #217
orthojoe
 
Drives: Subaru BRZ, Porsche Boxster Spyder
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: California
Posts: 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc View Post
Let me help you out so you'll "know for certain".

A "real" racer is someone who takes their car out on a track and races it or drives for a team that races cars.

A "status symbol" driver is someone who's never been on a track and isn't going to drive on a racetrack, but they want to appear as though they do by driving around in a car that appears to be a "real" race car.

A "real" racer understands the value and cost of racing and generally doesn't complain about the price.

A "status symbol" driver is VERY price conscious and just wants the appearance without the cost.

Do you see a lot of people walking around dressed as doctors, wearing astronaut suits, dressed as police officers, dressed as pilots, dressed as golfers, carrying a music instrument like they're a musician who aren't any of those things? No? Exactly, so if using those as examples is how far you have to go to try and "make your point" then you don't have a point to make to begin with. "Less credible and presumably delusional" is more fitting to what you posted up which had absolutely nothing to do with auto racing.
orthojoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 01:31 PM   #218
Wizard1183

 
Wizard1183's Avatar
 
Drives: ABM SS2/RS M6
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Lafayette,LA
Posts: 1,447
Send a message via Yahoo to Wizard1183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomino View Post
Of course. legends are passed down.

I wasn't even a thought in 1969, but i'd like to say i am well aware of the Camaro's legendary heritage. I'll tell my Kids, and if they are enthusiasts as i am, they will tell there's and so on. that is how legends are passed down.

On top of that, GM intelligently uses the z/28's heritage to market the car. this will help others understand the history behind these cars as well.
Totally understandable! Just cause you tell your kids and I think it's great you do as I will tell mine, but that doesn't necessarily say that because you're passing it down means it'll continue being a legend. If chevy drops the camaro again and never resurfaces it? You're legend is dead. Back to my point: you're I'm sure old enough to know jimmy Hendrix right? Elvis right? They're legends. Ask your kids presuming they're teens or less and they may have heard of them, may have even listened to them, but they're more influenced with the ppl their own age and what they're growing up seeing or hearing which is not necessarily what we believe in. Crap music, computers in cars, no more concerts, just download this or download that. And muscle car status is just not one of them. Many kids today don't care a lick about history. Music, cars, ect. They find it boring because we lacked technology. We lived in the era where technology wasn't at the forefront just yet. Now if you don't have the latest and greatest to make yourself feel good? You're looked down upon as not getting with the program. Ppl today change everything except maybe their home like they do underwear. Correct me if I'm wrong! But I just don't see this car continuing to be that legendary in 20 yrs when they won't even have a camaro. It's sad but this seems more real than the hopes we have in our heads doesn't it?

Which is why GM brought it back. To capitalize on it. They're not stupid. The market was great for it. But that market is changing very quickly. It's make money now screw what they think approach. You capitalize on something when time is right and charge a premium because in today's society, if you market it well, ppl will line up on top of one another just to buy that wooden nickel they made out to be gold.
__________________


Life is short, drive it like you stole it!
Wizard1183 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 01:39 PM   #219
silverds
2015 SS 6M
 
silverds's Avatar
 
Drives: 2015 SS 6M
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 561
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc View Post
Let me help you out so you'll "know for certain".

A "real" racer is someone who takes their car out on a track and races it or drives for a team that races cars.

A "status symbol" driver is someone who's never been on a track and isn't going to drive on a racetrack, but they want to appear as though they do by driving around in a car that appears to be a "real" race car.

A "real" racer understands the value and cost of racing and generally doesn't complain about the price.

A "status symbol" driver is VERY price conscious and just wants the appearance without the cost.

Do you see a lot of people walking around dressed as doctors, wearing astronaut suits, dressed as police officers, dressed as pilots, dressed as golfers, carrying a music instrument like they're a musician who aren't any of those things? No? Exactly, so if using those as examples is how far you have to go to try and "make your point" then you don't have a point to make to begin with. "Less credible and presumably delusional" is more fitting to what you posted up which had absolutely nothing to do with auto racing.
Thank you Doc for your highly charged explanation of what a "Real" Racer is. Now I understand your opinion.

Had you been a little less condescending I might have thought you made a reasonable point but now I'm certain you're just a "Real" Prick.
__________________
silverds is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 01:42 PM   #220
Boris632
 
Drives: 1955 210
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Rockford
Posts: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wizard1183 View Post
Here's my question. All these die hard original Z/28 fans that grew knowing what a real Z was/is;when they've died off, you could call it baby boomers as well whatever.. You think this car will still carry its "legendary" status? If you think for one second that these cars will be collectible in the future that "may be" delusional. Notice how many products the baby boomers made hugely collectible and now their prices are beginning to fall like the 1959 les paul, base ball cards, comic books, muscle cars and yea they've dropped in price. Ppl who own them are holding onto to them in hopes the market corrects itself and continues into the stratosphere. That 1970 chevelle SS LS6 #s matching won't be worth the $120k in 20 yrs as it is today. Prices will fall as collectibles are fixated on the now and not tomorrow. Look at society and tell me ppl dont want shit yesterday and could careless about waiting 30-40yrs. Instant gratification rules the U.S. and it won't stop. If its a popular product today doesn't mean it'll be popular tomorrow. iPhone is a prime example. Legend? Maybe now but don't count on it holding water in a decade plus.
Pretty much.

buying a car for an investment is not sound advice. Buy it and drive it
Boris632 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-23-2013, 01:45 PM   #221
slomaro3.4
 
slomaro3.4's Avatar
 
Drives: SS/RS L99 Crew
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Florida/Pittsburgh/San Diego
Posts: 439
Chevy "wants someone that would sell their abuelita to be behind the wheel.
Someone that drives their 10-second cars not in a straight line,
but to push it and make it through places no one else would take it.
Real drivers."

But around 65-70k sounds reasonable to me.
__________________
#YOLO
slomaro3.4 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:58 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.