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Old 04-22-2013, 10:04 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by 2010_5thgen View Post
like ive said, this car is in a class of its own. so you have to compare it to cars of the same purpose. track purpose cars...areil atom... hands down. 30k. light. track purpose and daily driver. best car. other than that...z06. still get radio, nav.... this is why gm will have a hard time selling this to anyone other than a true camaro enthusiast. there is no market for a 70k camaro that has no radio and is intended for the track. most people have dedicated track cars that are in this catagory. in a catagory close to this would be cars like the M3, S5, boss 302, gtr, z06. higher scale.... cayman R, mercedes black series, even the new viper... i know viper has had track cars in the past, but those are TRUE track cars with roll cages ready to race. this camaro is not that serious. but you could compare it to a viper of that caliber


people looking for a NEW track purpose 2nd or 3rd car, are few nad far between. anyone serious about track days has a car for that and isnt planning on spending 70K for it. people looking for a 2nd or 3rd car for a "toy" will more than likely be looking in the used car market. and in that field, you open up all other types of competition. for 70 or 80K like you said, id be looking for a panamera turbo so me and 3 of my friends can all enjoy the laps . but seriously, there will be alot of other used options for this purpose that will fulfill anyones track day urge and save them money. all a track day car needs to really be quick is the right set of wheels and tires, and brakes. obviously thats what they did with the camaro.
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did you not read what i said? there is no car in this class! because theres no void to be filled! thats hwy i said it goes in other classes that it may compete with. and the ariel atom is 56K...and the z06, yeah id still take it over this camaro... it has a radio and lower ownership cost and will be way more fun to drive around a track than the heavy pig camaro. cayman r is priced similar to the estimated z28 price. this is probably the closest car in its category other than the boss 302, z06 and even the exotics.. so there you have it. no matter the price. all those cars are still in its league. this category isnt based on $ obviously. its based on capability.


when you think of track day cars, you have to compare cost of car to performance. there are plenty of other cars that will run close to this z28 and be thousands less. and thats something consumers have to weigh. should i buy a 70K camaro that runs X time? or 40K car that runs X seconds slower in the lap than the 70K camaro? because who cares what a professional racing driver lapped this car in..... if you cant do that same time, it dont mean $hit!
Which one is it?
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Old 04-22-2013, 10:15 PM   #198
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yup. my point is, everyone is saying its 3 seconds quicker than the zl1......ok...well, average joe, show me!
GM announced that when they introduced the car at the NYIAS. It's been reported by every auto rag, blog, whatever in the country, you didn't know this?

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=286713
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Old 04-22-2013, 10:20 PM   #199
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there are better performers for the money. not all new, but slightly used. and the category this car will be in is obviously a higher category because theres not alot of lower level performers that make a car like this, most are high end. and comparing value for value, yeah like i said theres better value for your money.


all these numbers are compared ot the ZL1 running the ring. id like to see 1 camaro owner who had their ZL1 running the ring as quickly as GM got it...... ill bet theres not a single guy on here who is running the times GM got out of the car.
What should that matter? It's the pro's that are doing it and it's just a reference point. It's to show what a car is capable of, d'uh you know that. You're just changing the point because you clearly haven't given him a logical answer to his question(s).
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Old 04-22-2013, 10:56 PM   #200
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It probably will be $69k.....after dealers add on the extra $10k for BS markup.
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:07 PM   #201
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its going to be high, a ZL1 is mid $50ks almost everywhere... this is an even more exclusive Camaro, with a ton of R&D that you are going to be the one paying for, that has a hand built engine, etc... just a crate LS7 is almost $15k, that option alone on a stand SS would have it at almost $50k... I'm saying around $70k starting out
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Old 04-23-2013, 03:06 AM   #202
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Old 04-23-2013, 07:31 AM   #203
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.
This! Which equates to a VERY expensive toy. As I said before. Rarity and nastalgia. Thats what youre paying for UNLESS you're purely a camaro enthusiast. Then youre getting a REAL Z/28 Forget the high end parts ect. Im sure no more than 5% of those sold will ever see the track. Drag strip? Probably more so.

There's a sucker born every minute. Ill wait for him to buy it then sell it to me for a cheaper used price that's much more accommodating.
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Old 04-23-2013, 07:36 AM   #204
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It probably will be $69k.....after dealers add on the extra $10k for BS markup.
1969 Z/28 $69k hmmmm you might be on to something Jonesy! Lol
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Old 04-23-2013, 08:13 AM   #205
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This! Which equates to a VERY expensive toy. As I said before. Rarity and nastalgia. Thats what youre paying for UNLESS you're purely a camaro enthusiast. Then youre getting a REAL Z/28 Forget the high end parts ect. Im sure no more than 5% of those sold will ever see the track. Drag strip? Probably more so.

There's a sucker born every minute. Ill wait for him to buy it then sell it to me for a cheaper used price that's much more accommodating.
I tend to agree with you on this. Shortly after ZL1 production hit it's stride in 2013, there seemed to be used ZL1s popping up for sale everywhere. Some with up to 6000 miles but many were not even out of their break-in period.

The higher mileage ones could be presumed to be impulse purchases where the original buyer sold his mother-in-law to get in one, or fell under some hardship and found themselves having to sell or trade it in for a more reasonable, budget friendly conveyance.

Many of the low mileage ones were likely purchased as a "collectible" or "investment". As soon as reality set in about the collectibility or investment value, ZL1 collectors were dropping like flies.

I think the same will happen here, once the initial hype of collectibility and investment value wear off, Z/28s will become available on the used market in "Cherry" condition for well below MSRP.
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Old 04-23-2013, 09:38 AM   #206
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its going to be high, a ZL1 is mid $50ks almost everywhere... this is an even more exclusive Camaro, with a ton of R&D that you are going to be the one paying for, that has a hand built engine, etc... just a crate LS7 is almost $15k, that option alone on a stand SS would have it at almost $50k... I'm saying around $70k starting out
No, not a crate LS7 at $50k on an SS. You're adding the LS7 to the price of a 2SS correct? ( giving an MSRP of $34,995? For a 2SS) but what you failed to do was subtract the $7000 using a GM premium for that LS3. Youre not getting both engines. Remember that. Now we'll use your $15000 premium for the LS7 as no one NEEDS a hand built one nor asked for it to be hand built. Plus $1000 for the wiring harness and you're looking at $43.995 dropped in as you don't NEED R&D for this. Reason being the SS drive train, suspension ect can handle up to 650 HP supposedly. Lets drop it down to 600HP for safety. LS7 only produces 505 right? We're more than safe. Now add in hand built LS7 and you're correct. $50000. Still not a bad price for that.

I agree on your price of a Z tho. I say $70k out the door but it may be upwards of that.
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Old 04-23-2013, 09:52 AM   #207
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When Scott said that it would be more expensive than the ZL1, I died a little inside. I expect $70k out the door.

Z/28s have always been affordable and I think this is a huge mistake, but it's just me. Yes, I get the brakes and the gears and the LS7 are incredible. But I'd rather pay $55k for a car with creature comforts which still performs like an absolute beast. That three seconds just isn't enough of a difference for me to justify such a hefty price tag for a stripped-down Camaro. I'm afraid they've priced themselves out of the market and no one will buy the Z, and that such a failure may make them decide to eliminate it for good. Long shot, I know, but a concern.

The 1LE now seems to be what the Z/28 has always been, at least IMO. A great balance of street and track, affordable and able to be optioned up.

I was planning on a 50th anniversary Z/28 in 2017, but if they continue this pricing through the 6th gen, I'll be getting a 50th anniversary SS/1LE.
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:05 AM   #208
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When Scott said that it would be more expensive than the ZL1, I died a little inside. I expect $70k out the door.

Z/28s have always been affordable and I think this is a huge mistake, but it's just me. Yes, I get the brakes and the gears and the LS7 are incredible. But I'd rather pay $55k for a car with creature comforts which still performs like an absolute beast. That three seconds just isn't enough of a difference for me to justify such a hefty price tag for a stripped-down Camaro. I'm afraid they've priced themselves out of the market and no one will buy the Z, and that such a failure may make them decide to eliminate it for good. Long shot, I know, but a concern.

The 1LE now seems to be what the Z/28 has always been.

I was planning on a 50th anniversary Z/28 in 2017, but if they continue this pricing through the 6th gen, I'll be getting a 50th anniversary SS/1LE.
As I mentioned, a sucker born every minute and everyone they build will sell. And then some will be up for sale pretty quick, some up for sale 2-5 yrs afterwards for a much better price. As for your 6th gen? The Z/28 will run into that production and it won't be near the cost of this one I wouldn't think. It just might replace the SS as the 2nd gen did, not to mention that the SS has been taken to the 4dr to compete with the charger. So there's a lot of questions that are in the air. The chevelle is recently been trademarked which leads me to believe they'll stop production on the camaro and introduce a chevelle at some point. Isnt that what dodge is doing from challenger to barricuda? I'm speculating of course but with all these moves going, on something's happening and changing. The 5th gen was Chevys pride & joy for capitalization. They've done a wonderful job with it. We'll see what happens in a cpl yrs.
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Old 04-23-2013, 11:04 AM   #209
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No, not a crate LS7 at $50k on an SS. You're adding the LS7 to the price of a 2SS correct? ( giving an MSRP of $34,995? For a 2SS) but what you failed to do was subtract the $7000 using a GM premium for that LS3. Youre not getting both engines. Remember that. Now we'll use your $15000 premium for the LS7 as no one NEEDS a hand built one nor asked for it to be hand built. Plus $1000 for the wiring harness and you're looking at $43.995 dropped in as you don't NEED R&D for this. Reason being the SS drive train, suspension ect can handle up to 650 HP supposedly. Lets drop it down to 600HP for safety. LS7 only produces 505 right? We're more than safe. Now add in hand built LS7 and you're correct. $50000. Still not a bad price for that.

I agree on your price of a Z tho. I say $70k out the door but it may be upwards of that.

Can't really use retail pricing to determine retail cost in a car. I mean a trip to your favorite auto parts store will tell you that. Take a part any new car and try and replace all parts - a 30k car will probably set you back 100k or so.

The LS7 retails anywhere from 12k-19k. Even places like Jegs/Summit have them as special order so the middleman price is say 10k. It sure as hell does not cost GM 10k to make any engine that is mass produced.

Say maybe 6k from GM to build an LS7 crate. And even then i doubt it costs that much because how much more different is the LS7 to the LS3? (talking about building - all have 8 pistons, 8 rods, a crank, a block etc).

With that I would think a LS7 can be built for about $4500!



But there is also a gap left from no performance Corvettes and GM is looking to fill that void as well.

To me the Z/28 will be a huge profit center. They will try and target the hardcore Vette guys as well and that easily places this car in the 60-70k range. But this car would still be profitable at the 50k range imo.

The new design was spread out over all Camaros. LS7 development has already happened so it should be small tuning etc. Brake system once again done on the Vette. Coolers for brakes, rear end etc is race car stuff and probably borrowed from the GM teams.

Even testing on the car - how much info came from the ZL1 to steer this car in the direction it did.

Finally it was not built to a class. The COPO was built for certain classes and is a hell of a deal even at 86k. (try and build a stocker and get back to me). This car not being a class car means GM was just trying to fire off one last shot at Ford (and the world) saying "this is not even our fastest car - what do you have?" (implying the C7 Z cars will be monsters)

Z/28 is a very cool car - but they did piss off some fans. Can't please everyone right?
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Old 04-23-2013, 11:42 AM   #210
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They may have "pissed off" those who just want to drive around in a status symbol but real racers can't wait to get their hands on this thing. I think it's going to sell out quickly and you WON'T see a glut of them appearing on the used car market a few months after. I think we're witnessing the birth of a new legend.
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